Karousel

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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matthias
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Re: Karousel

Post by matthias » 2020-04-04 23:15

Charlie1 wrote:
2020-04-04 20:36
HernyB wrote:
2020-04-04 18:21
Just found this review:
http://www.whatyouseeandhear.com/linn-karousel-review/
Enjoyable read and looking forward to hearing it for real.
+1

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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-04-05 06:41

matthias wrote:
2020-04-04 23:14
Hermann wrote:
2020-04-04 13:02
If anyone is interested in some pictures.

_AB_8001.jpg

_AB_8004.jpg

_AB_8006.jpg
Thank you for sharing, which torque did you apply?

Matt
In the other forum the value 4Nm for Keel was mentioned by a dealer. I kept to that.

The review confirms my impression about the Karousel very well. Linn has developed a really good upgrade.

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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-04-05 08:25

HernyB wrote:
2020-04-04 18:21
Just found this review:
http://www.whatyouseeandhear.com/linn-karousel-review/
Excellent review ... Thank you for shearing HernyB.
Music First ...
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Re: Karousel

Post by HernyB » 2020-04-06 12:16

Hello!
I asked my local Linn dealer for a Karousel upgrade. He told me he would charge 150€ on top of the 890€ for the installation. That is because he would need about 5 hours to install it. He doesn't agree with Linn politics concerning the Karousel upgrade to be free of installation charge. Is that a common thing with that new upgrade? Are there any experiences?
Thank you!
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender » 2020-04-06 12:39

escalate it to Linn - the prices are including installation - actually even if you buy a DS - thats Linn customer care policy included in the price. You can ask him if you get the Karousel 200,- Euro cheaper if you install it by yourself

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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-04-06 13:37

HernyB wrote:
2020-04-06 12:16
Hello!
I asked my local Linn dealer for a Karousel upgrade. He told me he would charge 150€ on top of the 890€ for the installation. That is because he would need about 5 hours to install it. He doesn't agree with Linn politics concerning the Karousel upgrade to be free of installation charge. Is that a common thing with that new upgrade? Are there any experiences?
Thank you!
That is, if I may say so, nonsense. It took me less than two hours to rebuild and I'm not a Linn dealer.
My dealer says clearly, the price includes installation (at least in Germany). But since I know the LP12 well and due to the prevailing circumstances, this was my turn.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko » 2020-04-06 16:00

Generally, what is the policy regarding labour charges for fitting new parts?

Does it depend on whether it’s a like-for-like replacement, or an upgrade replacement?

Does Linn state anywhere whether labour is included in the cost of upgrades?

I know of one dealer who charges to deliver new Linn HiFi. Is this standard practice these days?

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Re: Karousel

Post by imarcel » 2020-04-06 20:03

hello hermann,
as you seem to be the first to acually open a karousel box:
- is a new belt included ?
- is the oil included ?
both not on the picture of the karousel kit.
i want to order and don´t know if i have to order these two things extra.
thank you very much
liebe grüße aus berlin
marcel

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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender » 2020-04-06 20:23

oil is included but the belt is not part of the kit - but wait until Hermann is confirming

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Re: Karousel

Post by Catweazle » 2020-04-06 20:33

HernyB wrote:
2020-04-06 12:16
Hello!
I asked my local Linn dealer for a Karousel upgrade. He told me he would charge 150€ on top of the 890€ for the installation. That is because he would need about 5 hours to install it. He doesn't agree with Linn politics concerning the Karousel upgrade to be free of installation charge. Is that a common thing with that new upgrade? Are there any experiences?
Thank you!
I don't know where you live, but my impression is: there are Linn dealers, and dealers which sell Linn. Looks like your local guy falls into the second category.

I have a dealer who sells Linn almost right around the corner, less than 2000m away. My trusted Linn dealer has to drive more than 1 hour from his shop to see me, and even longer to get back to his home. Still, when I bought my Exaktbox, he delivered it to my home, and spent a couple of hours to get the SO+ settings optimized to my awkward L shaped room. We tested each and every room mode, moving the frequency a bit, making the filter wider and narrower, and fiddling with the amplitude.

As he was here anywhere, he checked the speaker levelling, and my LP12. This was all part of his service, and included. It goes without saying, that the lady of this castle treated him with a nice dinner, which she prepaired while we were playing our favourite tunes on my now improved system. I call this a loyal Linn dealer, and would never ever think of buying elsewhere.

If you can find a loyal Linn dealer somewhere in your area, just forget the local dealer!
PC or LP12-Cirkus-Lingo2-Kore-Ekos2-Krystal | Uphorik | KRDSM | AEXBOX6/K | C6100/D | AV5140/EspekT

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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-04-06 21:02

Defender wrote:
2020-04-06 20:23
oil is included but the belt is not part of the kit - but wait until Hermann is confirming
Thats correct. Plus some screws I couldn't match. So there is a little more in the kit than is commonly shown.

Danke Marcel, Grüße aus Wuppertal zurück...

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Re: Karousel

Post by TMV » 2020-04-07 18:59

Matteo wrote:
2020-03-25 23:16
TMV wrote:
2020-03-25 09:29
Klimax LP12 is boring VS Akurate with Karousel.
Really?
El Mero Mero wrote:
2020-03-25 14:03
I hate this kind of statements. Klimax LP12 has never been boring!

I would much prefer them saying "Taking the LP12 to a whole new level." or something like this.
Not the same comparison but after comparing Klimax LP12 with Circus or Karousel I have to say that Klimax LP12 with Circus can be boring compared to Klimax LP12 with Karousel. Three examples:
- A Claire Martin song with Circus was sounding good but without feeling and soul, with Karousel she was hot.
- With Karousel Black Uhuru was so rhythmic and full of energy that I felt I was in a club in Jamaica, Circus was more like a nice price LP.
- Spirits in the material world (The Police) was truly excellent with Circus, but fantastic with Karousel.

I can agree that using boring and broken to describe "old" great equipment is a bit harsh, but now I understand what Anders meant.

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Re: Karousel

Post by 17brutus » 2020-04-07 21:31

TMV, full agreement.

I love my new Karousel.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Moomintroll » 2020-04-08 12:36

Hermann wrote:
2020-04-06 21:02
Defender wrote:
2020-04-06 20:23
oil is included but the belt is not part of the kit - but wait until Hermann is confirming
Thats correct. Plus some screws I couldn't match. So there is a little more in the kit than is commonly shown.

Danke Marcel, Grüße aus Wuppertal zurück...
The screws look like Cirkus mounting screws, so these packets are likely to be remaining Cirkus kit stock and will eventually be used up.

I’m really looking forward to Karousel.

‘troll

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Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel » 2020-04-08 16:42

Moomintroll wrote:
2020-04-08 12:36
I’m really looking forward to Karousel.
With good reason! Four weeks after leaving my LP12 with my excellent dealer, I got a phone call this morning to say my SE/1 had arrived - plus a Karousel. This was a pleasant surprise, as I'd expected to wait until the end of the month at the earliest. My original intent had been to get them fitted separately, so I could hear the difference each made. But after time without vinyl, I didn't bother with that...

This is not a change where the playground contributors might find it difficult to choose between clips! I recently heard a direct SE vs SE/1 comparison, so I know what that brings. The Karousel brings much more, it is fundamentally better than Cirkus with more resolution, more bass realism, more music.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-04-08 20:25

Moomintroll wrote:
2020-04-08 12:36
Hermann wrote:
2020-04-06 21:02
Defender wrote:
2020-04-06 20:23
oil is included but the belt is not part of the kit - but wait until Hermann is confirming
Thats correct. Plus some screws I couldn't match. So there is a little more in the kit than is commonly shown.

Danke Marcel, Grüße aus Wuppertal zurück...
The screws look like Cirkus mounting screws, so these packets are likely to be remaining Cirkus kit stock and will eventually be used up.

I’m really looking forward to Karousel.

‘troll
The additional screws aren't leftovers from the Cirkus. They are mounting hardware for arm collars and the armboard to be attached to a Majik and for arm collars on the Kore sub-chassis as well as ground screws for both. This way you have all the hardware you need if a new sub-chassis is being installed along with a Karousel. An old style P-Clip is also included as those generally should be replaced when they have to be removed, which is the case to install the Karousel.

I have a Karousel in hand and it will be in my LP12 shortly. I will, of course, report my findings. As mentioned on another forum, Linn has removed the "diamond-like carbon coating" and it is back to the lapped, mirror finished thrust plate, although smaller and mounted in the new bottom cap. No word of why this has happened, it would just appear that it didn't work as well. Congratulations, David Neel, on getting your updated LP12 back. I'm sure we can all use quality music in the current situation.
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Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel » 2020-04-08 21:43

Thank you, Tom. I was mentally prepared for the lockdown to mean that I had only cassette and Hakai for the duration, so a lunchtime phone call to say it was being assembled was VERY good news! Tomorrow I'll start checking the details like belt orientation, for now I'm just enjoying it. I've just put on Rhiannon Giddens' new album, it's sending shivers down my spine.

My 1983 LP12 is now on its fourth bearing, fourth tone-arm, third sub-chassis, third motor/psu, third plinth, second outer platter, and second lid. The top-plate is original...

I'm very conscious of my good fortune to get my LP12 delivered back (without breaking lockdown provisions), and to be healthy so that I can enjoy it. Wishing everybody good health and safety...
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Re: Karousel

Post by Moomintroll » 2020-04-08 22:37

Thanks for the correction on the arm collar screws, Tom. That didn’t occur to me.

‘troll

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Re: Karousel

Post by matthias » 2020-04-09 09:18

Spannko wrote:
2020-04-06 16:00
Generally, what is the policy regarding labour charges for fitting new parts?
Does it depend on whether it’s a like-for-like replacement, or an upgrade replacement?
Does Linn state anywhere whether labour is included in the cost of upgrades?
IMO, this is a VERY important topic.

Maybe ThomasOK can chime in?

Thanks

Matt
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-04-09 11:13

ThomasOK wrote:
2020-04-08 20:25

[...] An old style P-Clip is also included as those generally should be replaced when they have to be removed, which is the case to install the Karousel.
[...]
Does it really matter? I didn't change the clip, didn't see the point. Why should it be replaced?

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Re: Karousel

Post by Matteo » 2020-04-14 16:29

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqtVD2k ... 1AmOQctEzM

Ripcaster Live presentation filmed 1st April 2020 featuring Linn LP12 and new Karousel bearing upgrade.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Ianw » 2020-04-15 16:09

Nice

Thanks for posting

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Re: Karousel

Post by Tony Tune-age » 2020-04-15 18:52

Ianw wrote:
2020-04-15 16:09
Nice

Thanks for posting
Agreed, an informative and worthwhile video. It's much appreciated Matteo!

Cheers
Tony Tune-age

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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-04-15 19:14

matthias wrote:
2020-04-09 09:18
Spannko wrote:
2020-04-06 16:00
Generally, what is the policy regarding labour charges for fitting new parts?
Does it depend on whether it’s a like-for-like replacement, or an upgrade replacement?
Does Linn state anywhere whether labour is included in the cost of upgrades?
IMO, this is a VERY important topic.

Maybe ThomasOK can chime in?

Thanks

Matt
Basically, my understanding is that installation is supposed to be included with all dealer installed upgrades. At Overture Audio this is how we have always done things. I don't know that Linn does anything to strictly enforce this and I am sure a number of dealers add labor on top as it boosts profits. There are two sides to any story and Linn has always expected installation of their products in the customer's home. This ensures that the customer gets the full performance of their products (or as close as the customer will let you get with things like speaker and component positioning). Linn feel that the profit in the sale is enough that the dealer should provide this service. The problem with that is twofold, one is that the profit margin on Linn products is in the same vicinity as any number of other companies like Naim, Rega, Simaudio Moon, NAD and Lejonklou, to name a few of many. Most, if not all, of these companies do not require home installation. Not that many have the level of upgrades that Linn does and often products have to go back to the factory. But Lejonklou products do include the labor in the upgrade price. The second problem is that home installation is practical when you are in the UK and can't throw a stone without hitting a Linn dealer. :-) It is less so in the US where one dealer might service an area that extends 500 or 1000 miles. The distances involved here makes some of that impractical.

So in the case of Overture Audio, if you bring your LP12 to us I will install the Karousel with no additional labor charge for the install. That does not include any other work that might be necessary on the LP12. For instance, if somebody hasn't had me setup their LP12 before, or in the last 5 or so years, I recommend a full setup. This takes 3 to 4 hours, the extra hour often necessary if the top plate doesn't fit right and needs a complete strip down to correct it. We only charge $75 an hour for that service (which some have told me is underpriced) so it coms out to $225 to $300 plus any needed parts like springs and grommets (most of which are cheap and those are included with the Karousel). So if somebody is having a Karousel and a Keel installed I would deduct the time involved for that installation and just charge the remaining time for the rest of the setup - probably 2 hours or $150. This covers precision torquing the other fasteners not involved in the parts replacement, proper alignment and adjustment of the cartridge in the arm, belt, mat and platter alignment, possibly a Radikal/Trampolin fix if needed, etc.

If the customer wants me to go out to them then my travel time, lodging if necessary, and setup time outside the upgrade (as noted above) will be charged. Most customers choose to drive into Ann Arbor, several from as far away as 700 or more miles, and stay overnight to give me a couple of days to work on their LP12 (although I can arrange to do it in one day, but I prefer two if new springs are involved so they can settle fully before the final suspension adjustment). But I have made trips to customers that are a fair distance away when they would rather pay for me to do so. I will be doing that soon for two LP12 owners near St Louis, MO who are having me do complete LP12 rebuilds with new Karousels and other components.

But other dealers handle things in their own ways and I'm quite sure a number charge labor on top of the upgrade.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-04-15 19:18

Hermann wrote:
2020-04-09 11:13
ThomasOK wrote:
2020-04-08 20:25

[...] An old style P-Clip is also included as those generally should be replaced when they have to be removed, which is the case to install the Karousel.
[...]
Does it really matter? I didn't change the clip, didn't see the point. Why should it be replaced?
Sorry if I concerned you, Hermann. I did say generally. If your P-Clip is relatively new and in good condition you shouldn't need to replace it. However, the white plastic P-Clips do get brittle with age and can easily crack when being properly re-tightened. Also I have seen a number that were stretched out or otherwise damaged. So I replace them whenever they don't appear to be in really good shape.
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