Karousel

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Catweazle
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Re: Karousel

Post by Catweazle » 2020-03-27 19:33

Matteo wrote:
2020-03-27 16:12
It seems that Linn is committing suicide offering an upgrade that for less than 1,000 € could transform an Akurate LP12 to a more musical device than a crazy pricey Klimax LP12

Who the hell will buy a Keel, an Ekos or a Klimax Radikal in the future?

M.
I volunteer for the Radikal for an even slicker revolution. And it will earn me a free ride on the Karousel!
PC or LP12-Cirkus-Lingo2-Kore-Ekos2-Krystal | Uphorik | KRDSM | AEXBOX6/K | C6100/D | AV5140/EspekT

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Re: Karousel

Post by markiteight » 2020-03-27 22:04

Matteo wrote:
2020-03-27 16:12
It seems that Linn is committing suicide offering an upgrade that for less than 1,000 € could transform an Akurate LP12 to a more musical device than a crazy pricey Klimax LP12

Who the hell will buy a Keel, an Ekos or a Klimax Radikal in the future?

M.
You seem to be forgetting that the same improvements the Karousel brings to an Akurate LP12 will be brought to a Klimax level LP12 as well. Actually, it's probably not a stretch to speculate that the benefits of the Karousel will be even greater on the higher level decks.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Matteo » 2020-03-27 23:48

markiteight wrote:
2020-03-27 22:04
Matteo wrote:
2020-03-27 16:12
It seems that Linn is committing suicide offering an upgrade that for less than 1,000 € could transform an Akurate LP12 to a more musical device than a crazy pricey Klimax LP12

Who the hell will buy a Keel, an Ekos or a Klimax Radikal in the future?

M.
You seem to be forgetting that the same improvements the Karousel brings to an Akurate LP12 will be brought to a Klimax level LP12 as well. Actually, it's probably not a stretch to speculate that the benefits of the Karousel will be even greater on the higher level decks.
You seem to be missing the point that at the price of a new Akurate LP 12 (9,000 €) you can get a deck more musical than a Klimax LP 12 (more than 20,000 €) without Karousel.

M
LP12/Tramp2/Kore/Akito 2b/ARadikal/Adikt/Slipsik 7-ND5 XS 2-AK/1-A2200-M109 [Silver-K200]

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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou » 2020-03-28 00:45

That's how Source First works, Matteo.

The closer to the source, the more fundamental the improvement is. But that doesn't change that fact that all the lesser improvements are also important.

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Re: Karousel

Post by markiteight » 2020-03-28 02:11

Matteo wrote:
2020-03-27 23:48
You seem to be missing the point that at the price of a new Akurate LP 12 (9,000 €) you can get a deck more musical than a Klimax LP 12 (more than 20,000 €) without Karousel.

M
And that is fantastic news for the Akurate LP12 owner, that for approximately 11% of their initial outlay they receive such a significant and fundamental improvement. It's even better news for the Klimax LP12 owner, as they will potentially see an even bigger improvement for 5% of their initial outlay. That's a helluva bargain!

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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-03-28 19:41

markiteight wrote:
2020-03-28 02:11
Matteo wrote:
2020-03-27 23:48
You seem to be missing the point that at the price of a new Akurate LP 12 (9,000 €) you can get a deck more musical than a Klimax LP 12 (more than 20,000 €) without Karousel.

M
And that is fantastic news for the Akurate LP12 owner, that for approximately 11% of their initial outlay they receive such a significant and fundamental improvement. It's even better news for the Klimax LP12 owner, as they will potentially see an even bigger improvement for 5% of their initial outlay. That's a helluva bargain!
Technically, if the hierarchy works as it should, a Majik LP12 with a Karousel should musically outperform a Klimax LP12 with Cirkus bearing. Which means that all LP12 purchasers going forward will have a significantly more musical turntable and all current owners (who don't have a dangerous power supply) have the potential for a large upgrade.

It does not lessen the musical advantages brought by things like the Radikal, Keel, Kore, Lingo 4, Ekos SE, Kandid, Krystal, etc., etc. Indeed, with a Karousel all those other upgrades should be able to work even better being fed a better signal allowed by the improved precision and lower noise floor of the bearing. So everyone should get a big boost in musical performance, whatever level of LP12 they have. Believe me, I'll not be bemoaning my SINGularity purchase once I get to hear the music flowing through it from the Karousel/Klimax LP12.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-03-28 19:51

Hermann wrote:
2020-03-27 10:11
Well, I think I have the Karousel tomorrow. My dealer sent it out yesterday. I'll have it installed in the next few days, probably Monday. The only question is the torque, which according to Peter @Cymbiosis should be 4Nm for the Keel. Also the question how far the Sturtevant tool can be used.
Yes, I believe the Sturtevant tool should be adequate. It goes up to 4Nm, which is the recommended setting for Majik, Kore and Keel sub-chassis. It also has the ability to go a little above that and below it to find the precise correct torque (which is likely to be different for the Keel than for the Kore and Majik). That assumes it is not much higher than the recommendation. You will need a 20mm socket for the Karousel top.

However, the recommended torque for the steel sub-chassis is 5Nm, which will require a different tool. I have on order a small precision torque wrench, mostly sold to bicyclists, that goes from 1Nm to 8Nm and allows continuous adjustment. So it can cover all the range needed. I will have to play with it a bit to see how to properly quantify small torque adjustments but I'll probably have it before I get the Karousel. With it I will be able to check a little bit higher than the Sturtevant goes to see if there is a better value up there. I will report my findings whenever I am able to get a Karousel.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-03-28 19:53

Ianw wrote:
2020-03-24 20:10
Ah Thomas,
That’s good info on the torque for Keel will run with my Sturtevant driver.

Do you know if it’s a dealer only fit? I’m supposing it is.

Regards
It is recommended as dealer fit, as are all Linn LP12 upgrades and most of their other upgrades. Fitting is included in the price. But as with anything else you can fi it yourself if you are comfortable doing so, if you have a dealer willing to sell it without install and if you are willing to forego warranty coverage that could be called into question without a dealer installation.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-03-28 20:10

Moomintroll wrote:
2020-03-26 14:20
ThomasOK wrote:
2020-03-12 17:35
cortina wrote:
2020-03-12 08:53
Hi,
Clear that it is not limited to LP12 only. But you are saying that it is not limited to upgrades only so it is also possible to buy eg an amplifier, speaker or cables?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying as it is what Linn has said to me. Amplifiers, DS, DSM, speakers, cables, Exaktboxes, etc. are all included. The only exclusion I was told about was the Series 3 speakers. This was in answer to a direct request for clarification on that issue. Linn is planning to publish more in depth dealer information on the Karousel and the promotions, including a video talking about the design of the Karousel, on or just before the 23rd.
Tom,
Any update on this video that you mentioned?

‘troll
Try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
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Re: Karousel

Post by Moomintroll » 2020-03-28 21:11

Any need for that?

‘troll

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Re: Karousel

Post by beck » 2020-03-28 21:18

I find the above video from ThomasOK really informative. Watch it!.......

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Re: Karousel

Post by maffe » 2020-03-28 21:20

beck wrote:
2020-03-28 21:18
I find the above video from ThomasOK really informative. Watch it!.......
Kind of explains it all in an easy way what I experienced with the Karousel

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Re: Karousel

Post by tokenbrit » 2020-03-29 00:54

Thanks Tom - most informative. Surprised you didn't post the link to part 2 of the discussion: https://youtu.be/PGNiXGX2nLU - it really adds a new spin to the beloved old fruit box that is the LP12 and explains why the existing Klimax sounds dead in comparison; the Karousel so much more alive.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko » 2020-03-29 05:16

tokenbrit wrote:
2020-03-29 00:54
Thanks Tom - most informative. Surprised you didn't post the link to part 2 of the discussion: https://youtu.be/PGNiXGX2nLU - it really adds a new spin to the beloved old fruit box that is the LP12 and explains why the existing Klimax sounds dead in comparison; the Karousel so much more alive.
Ah, yes. Now I understand. It’s amazing that no one has explained it like that before. It’s obvious when you think about it. 🤣

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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-03-29 10:09

ThomasOK wrote:
2020-03-28 19:51
Hermann wrote:
2020-03-27 10:11
Well, I think I have the Karousel tomorrow. My dealer sent it out yesterday. I'll have it installed in the next few days, probably Monday. The only question is the torque, which according to Peter @Cymbiosis should be 4Nm for the Keel. Also the question how far the Sturtevant tool can be used.
Yes, I believe the Sturtevant tool should be adequate. It goes up to 4Nm, which is the recommended setting for Majik, Kore and Keel sub-chassis. It also has the ability to go a little above that and below it to find the precise correct torque (which is likely to be different for the Keel than for the Kore and Majik). That assumes it is not much higher than the recommendation. You will need a 20mm socket for the Karousel top.

However, the recommended torque for the steel sub-chassis is 5Nm, which will require a different tool. I have on order a small precision torque wrench, mostly sold to bicyclists, that goes from 1Nm to 8Nm and allows continuous adjustment. So it can cover all the range needed. I will have to play with it a bit to see how to properly quantify small torque adjustments but I'll probably have it before I get the Karousel. With it I will be able to check a little bit higher than the Sturtevant goes to see if there is a better value up there. I will report my findings whenever I am able to get a Karousel.

Thanks Tom for your contribution, very welcome.

Not sure if the Sturtevant tool at the end of the scale is still accurate enough. But will see...
Regarding another torque wrench I also had the bike accessories in my visor.
.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender » 2020-03-29 10:47

enjoy and dont wait too long until you install it - we are very curious what you think

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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-03-29 10:50

Arrival ...
Landed ...
Music First ...
Vlado

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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-03-29 11:28

Defender wrote:
2020-03-29 10:47
enjoy and dont wait too long until you install it - we are very curious what you think
Thx Defender, if all goes well, that'll be tomorrow.

Since I install the kit myself, I had to clarify the warranty, but my dealer reassured me today, everything is ok.

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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-03-29 11:50

Hermann wrote:
2020-03-29 11:28
Defender wrote:
2020-03-29 10:47
enjoy and dont wait too long until you install it - we are very curious what you think
Thx Defender, if all goes well, that'll be tomorrow.

Since I install the kit myself, I had to clarify the warranty, but my dealer reassured me today, everything is ok.
Please ... if possible, make Clips now ... Before ...
Thank in advance for shearing your improvement ...
Music First ...
Vlado

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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-03-29 11:59

Well that's my intention. A Zoom H4n recorder is used for this. My smartphone is not the best in terms of audio.

Unfortunately it will probably be Tuesday or Wednesday, because I don't have the right socket. And due to the current status of some local shops I have ordered online.

Edit:

Ask me also the question about the lower screw. Is it also tightened with 4Nm or just simply tightened? Guess that has to be cleared up.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko » 2020-03-29 12:14

Hermann,

Re: Torque. The way Karousel is affixed to the sub chassis is new, so the old rules may no longer apply. Since we don’t know if the recommended torques are related to sound quality or material strength, may I suggest that you experiment with the torque by starting with the absolute lowest setting on your torque driver and gradually increasing the torque up to the maximum recommend?

Tom Fletcher, the late turntable designer, believed that some of the fixings should only be finger tight. I’m not saying he was right, but it’s a view which may or may not apply to the Karousel fixing.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender » 2020-03-29 12:46

I wouldnt touch the lower screw ... if we talk about the same screw.
I assume with the lower screw you mean the interchangeable bearing mirror (which Tom said is no mirror anymore but a rounded surface ... but I have no other word to describe) as it comes fitted already.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann » 2020-03-29 13:21

@Spannko,

I realize that Linn's recommendation is the way to go first. Perhaps a slightly different value will emerge later. In that case I have to rely on those who can assemble and experiment with the LP12 every day. For the beginning I use the 4Nm.

Regarding finger tight. Those were our first LP12 attempts, 40 years ago. We never paid attention to the correct torque. Why should they, other things were in the foreground. But no screw of the LP12 should be tightened too laxly. Therefore I doubt the statement insofar, if this should be the case in principle. Perhaps he is right in areas that are not obvious to me.

We had tried the armboard, the cable clip and the screws for the floor and the feet. And yes, there were audible differences, especially between the screws of the armboard and those of the tone arm base.

All the years of experience regarding torque on different devices, which some of you post here, speak for themselves. To be honest, I don't have time for several setup sessions. I'm waiting for experiences from other friendly users, especially Tom, of course.

Nevertheless I write down my first experience and try to post clips.

@Defender
Regarding the lower screw, this was a quick consideration that may become relevant later. Who knows...

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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry » 2020-03-29 17:24

Catweazle wrote:
2020-03-27 19:25
Tendaberry wrote:
2020-03-26 18:25
No big surprise there :-) My new LP12 ships on Wednesday, so I'll have it before Easter.
Implies that my trusted dealer is visiting you? :-)
It certainly looks like that :-)

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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-03-29 23:01

Moomintroll wrote:
2020-03-28 21:11
Any need for that?

‘troll
I’m sorry, ‘troll. I did look for something from Linn but found nothing so far on consumer or dealer websites. Considering the tone earlier in the thread I just couldn’t resist the perfect setup! :-) No harm intended.
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