Karousel

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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lejonklou
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

alan wrote: 2020-11-15 14:14 Hello,
I do not know the Sturtevant Richemont cal 36/4 which must be an excellent tool, according to Thomas Ok the setting for karousel is best on 2.6+5 what would seem to correspond between 3.1 Nm and 3.2 Nm?
Hello Alan!

No, 2.6+5 corresponds to around 2.7 Nm.
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Re: Karousel

Post by alan »

Thank you Lejonclou,
Your explanation is interesting, the measurement of Thomas OK 2.7Nm provides a valuable help to understand that one must avoid too much torque tightening.
Linn indicates a torque tightening of 3.5Nm, perhaps to the maximum? I think a correct tightening between 2.7Nm and 3.2Nm. The listening and the music will confirm.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Hi Alan. I would start at 2.6Nm on your driver just to cover the possibility of a difference in readings between the drivers. Otherwise definitely trying different settings with music is the way to go. Let us know what you find.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Efraim roots »

First of all thank you Thomas for suppling us with hard earned torque values! Tonight I started trying myself. I installed the Karousel late august. I just tightened it on feeling but I was holding the clean Keel in my hands when installing with a wrench so I noticed today I had got really tight. It has sounded very good I think but I was always interested what a precise torque could do to it. Tonight i finally tried your best values on my own deck.

First I set the SR to 2.6+5, Thomas latest find. I was quite underwhelmed really, felt sluggish. I tried a few torques around that value and 2.6+4 was the best, sounding like a typical sub-optimal peak. Very well tuned but still sounded little broken in a sluggish way. Like Karousel trying to be a more refined cirkus.

I then tried your previous best find 4.0-2. It sounded promising and more like I was used to, but still not quite right. When I tried 4.0-3 everything fell into place, so I stopped. To me this sounds like the Karousel feels comfortable, free and being itself, rather than an act trying to be a refined circus.

One conclusion = sharp peaks! Maybe thats why it's hard to find optimal-optimal value right away and options like 4.0-2 vs 2.6+5 appear. Both my values appeared -1 notch from Thomas values, maybe my wrench is off 1 notch from his or maybe we are 1 notch off in starting setting as the dial is small and not crystal clear to read?

When I listen to Thomas latest recorded clips I also prefer 4.0-2.

I'm happy to use 4.0nm -3 notches setting on my own Karousel and SR wrench (which probably would benefit from cleaning and calibration, thanks for the instructions!) which is an improvement from my first setting. Maybe I try more around this setting to see if there is a better 'notch', another day :) Karousel is likely to be an improvement over my previous cirkus but I changed my 8 year old Radikal for a brand new one at the same time + total rebuild of the LP12.

Thanks
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Re: Karousel

Post by sktn77a »

If I understand the process correctly, we install the Karousel onto the subchassis at a refernce torque (say, 2.6nM), install the subchassis and reassemble the LP12, conduct a listening test, disassemble the LP12, remove the subchassis, tighten the karousel, reinstall the subchassis and re-setup the LP12 and then listen again? I know that if I did that, I would have lost my "memory" of the first listening test to the extent I could detect a small difference?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Efraim roots »

Oh my goodness, I can't go to sleep even though I should. This sounds good!

I just removed the platters with the LP12 still on shelf. Then fixed the keel in the corners with cardboard. Then used the torq tool to tighten Karousel bearing to Keel subchassis. Assemble platters and listen. Remove and retighten, assemble again and listen, so on. Seemed to work fine at these torques.
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Re: Karousel

Post by HBE »

Did you try 3.5Nm as Linn recommends? If so, how did that compare to the other settings you tried?
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Re: Karousel

Post by sktn77a »

Efraim roots wrote: 2020-11-23 01:45 I just removed the platters with the LP12 still on shelf. Then fixed the keel in the corners with cardboard. Then used the torq tool to tighten Karousel bearing to Keel subchassis. Assemble platters and listen. Remove and retighten, assemble again and listen, so on.
So you torqued the Karousel from the top, letting the Keel take all the pressure?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Efraim roots »

sktn77a wrote: 2020-11-23 14:41
Efraim roots wrote: 2020-11-23 01:45 I just removed the platters with the LP12 still on shelf. Then fixed the keel in the corners with cardboard. Then used the torq tool to tighten Karousel bearing to Keel subchassis. Assemble platters and listen. Remove and retighten, assemble again and listen, so on.
So you torqued the Karousel from the top, letting the Keel take all the pressure?
Yes I torqued the Karousel from the top, with the keel reasonably fixed in the corners with cardboard. I guess the top plate bolts, grommets and springs took quite some pressure? But It felt alright at these torques. I would be very happy to be corrected if I did something stupid. Maybe you really should do it with trampolin off and holding the keel still from underside?

It worked this time at least :) I've been servicing my own LP12 with the SR tool for 8 years now. Before I started myself I had Lejonklou himself doing it for me a couple of times which convinced me about optimal torque setup. I got a lot of help with values from this forum.
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Re: Karousel

Post by sktn77a »

OK, well, it sounds like you know what you are doing.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Efraim roots »

HBE wrote: 2020-11-23 11:02 Did you try 3.5Nm as Linn recommends? If so, how did that compare to the other settings you tried?
No I did not since ThomasOK said he didn't like that with Keel. I will try some more to find optimal-optimal notch, incredible improvement last night! One advantage to work with your own system is that you can combine fine-tuning by fast tune dems and also long term listening. I often take a few rounds. In the end there is one notch, or one mm that is the best :)

I know my LP12 very well of course but I have no classic training, if I did something stupid with my method of tightening Karousel, please enlighten me!
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Re: Karousel

Post by HBE »

Efraim roots wrote: 2020-11-23 17:22
HBE wrote: 2020-11-23 11:02 Did you try 3.5Nm as Linn recommends? If so, how did that compare to the other settings you tried?
No I did not since ThomasOK said he didn't like that with Keel. I will try some more to find optimal-optimal notch, incredible improvement last night! One advantage to work with your own system is that you can combine fine-tuning by fast tune dems and also long term listening. I often take a few rounds. In the end there is one notch, or one mm that is the best :)

I know my LP12 very well of course but I have no classic training, if I did something stupid with my method of tightening Karousel, please enlighten me!
Your preferred setting now is close to Linn's original setting with Keel. They did lower the setting from 4Nm to 3.5Nm and most probably because it sounded better to their ears. I would definitely tried Linn's setting as well to sort that out.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Nicolav »

Efraim roots wrote: 2020-11-23 17:22
HBE wrote: 2020-11-23 11:02 Did you try 3.5Nm as Linn recommends? If so, how did that compare to the other settings you tried?
No I did not since ThomasOK said he didn't like that with Keel. I will try some more to find optimal-optimal notch, incredible improvement last night! One advantage to work with your own system is that you can combine fine-tuning by fast tune dems and also long term listening. I often take a few rounds. In the end there is one notch, or one mm that is the best :)

I know my LP12 very well of course but I have no classic training, if I did something stupid with my method of tightening Karousel, please enlighten me!
Hi Efraim roots,
your findings is similar to mines, I use the same metod for tightening the karousel and it works fine and is fast.
As for the torques I went from original 4 Nm recommendation from Linn then tried lower torques starting from 3.4 Nm and ending to 3.4 +4 notch, pretty much equivalent to 3.5 Nm.
For me, with 3.4 +4 are almost perfect, my brain react very well to the music without any stress: finally now I can only concentrate on the music.
And all my doubts if it was better the cirkus are gone, Karousel is simply better!
LP12/RadikalM/Keel/Ekos SE1/Ekstatik/Urika II/Klimax System Hub/Klimax Exaktbox's/10 Solos/A242
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Re: Karousel

Post by Efraim roots »

Yes I experienced such an improvement with 4.0-3 so I just needed to take a breath :)

Today I tried 4.0-4 which sounded little worse to me. Then I went for 3.6 and it sounded interesting. Went on to 3.4 and it sounded interesting. Then I tried 3.4+4 wich is "pretty much equivalent to 3.5 Nm" as Nicolav said. And I felt YES! It was a big yes, but I was feeling calm :)

Then I logged in to this forum to report and I saw your post Nicolav. Haha, It sound very right indeed! I feel a little frightened in a humble way with this deep dub that's playing in the background right now.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Efraim roots »

Now I listen to a b-side I seldom play. Tune called "Til I kiss you", really upbeat, happy and romantic. And for sure I want to dance with nice girl and kiss her! :D
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

sktn77a wrote: 2020-11-23 14:41
Efraim roots wrote: 2020-11-23 01:45 I just removed the platters with the LP12 still on shelf. Then fixed the keel in the corners with cardboard. Then used the torq tool to tighten Karousel bearing to Keel subchassis. Assemble platters and listen. Remove and retighten, assemble again and listen, so on.
So you torqued the Karousel from the top, letting the Keel take all the pressure?
Torquing the Karousel this way does not put undue pressure on the Keel or suspension. I have done it this way quite frequently whether the LP12 is in a jig or on its normal resting place in the system.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

Efraim roots wrote: 2020-11-24 15:40 Yes I experienced such an improvement with 4.0-3 so I just needed to take a breath :)

Today I tried 4.0-4 which sounded little worse to me. Then I went for 3.6 and it sounded interesting. Went on to 3.4 and it sounded interesting. Then I tried 3.4+4 wich is "pretty much equivalent to 3.5 Nm" as Nicolav said. And I felt YES! It was a big yes, but I was feeling calm :)

Then I logged in to this forum to report and I saw your post Nicolav. Haha, It sound very right indeed! I feel a little frightened in a humble way with this deep dub that's playing in the background right now.
It's a pity you didn't make any clips of your torque experimenting...
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Re: Karousel - yet more torque tests

Post by ThomasOK »

I am always interested to read about the tests people do with torques as my goal is to always find the most musical settings. So after reading the latest several posts I decided it was time for more tests and was given the perfect opportunity. I had a customer driving in from out of state to have me work on one of his two LP12s and I told him to bring both of them up so I could re-torque his Karousel on them. Both his LP12s have Akurate case Radikals, Keels, Karousels, Trampolin 2s and movingui plinths. One also has an Ekos SE/1 and Kandid and the other has an Aro and a Krystal. Both are now used with Entity units (I just removed a Urika from the Aro/Krystal unit and reinstalled the original cable and a Trampolin 2).

Since I just read the recent posts I wanted to be more sure of the torques before I tackled his LP12s so I took our demo Klimax LP12 with Urika 1 to the test bench. It had been set at 2.6 +5. I used my main torque driver and went back to 4.0 -2 but was not happy. I tried 4.0 -3 and it was noticeably better but 4.0 -4 was not as good. So in that range the best torque on my driver would be 4.0 -3. I agree it is hard to read at that level on my driver as well and I might have been off one notch before, but probably not considering what I found below. But I was very careful to make sure I was centered on the 4.0Nm line to start and am confident of the 4.0 -3 setting in that range. Then I used a different driver that I normally keep set to 3.4Nm and sometimes change to 3.4 -3. 3.4 is the best torque for Cirkus to steel sub chassis and for Karousel to Kore/Majik sub chassis, while 3.4 -3 is the best setting for the ground to chassis connection on most Lejonklou and Linn gear. Since I had immediately disliked 3.4 even on the Keel I didn't experiment much farther with it originally but decided to do so this time. 3.4 +4 was definitely better than 3.4 even but still didn't thrill me. So I tried +5 which was better, +6 which was better yet and sounding pretty good and +7 which was less good again. I tried back and forth a bit and found 3.4 +6 the only one that showed good musicality. Then it was time to use my third driver which I have kept set at 2.6 +5 since I found that setting a while back. It sounded so right when I used it I didn't bother trying settings around it again as it didn't seem necessary. Now I had three torque drivers set at 4.0 -3, 3.4 +6 and 2.6 +5 so that I could easily do comparisons.

I did the comparison on the store demo LP12 a few times going in different directions and trying different A/Bs. I also used a different record from what I used before (and use for most of my setups) by Holly Cole (the track "Tango Till They're Sore") to do these three settings and when I was testing them against each other I also used "Aqualung" by Jethro Tull as a second check. I then was able to try the same three settings on the two customer LP12s where I also confirmed the 4.0 -3 setting was better than the 4.0 -2 I had initially done. I listened to the customer Klimax LP12 through an Entity and the Aro/Krystal one through a basic Rega Fono MM I keep on the test bench (as I didn't have an MC stage handy).

So how did it all play out?

3.4 +6, while the most musical setting in that range just didn't do anything for me. I found it a bit sluggish and dull and it didn't move very well.
4.0 -3 was actually quite good. It's pretty musical and very clean, maybe a touch "Hi-Fi'.
2.6 +5 Oh, yeah! This one just did it for me each time I returned to it. Very musical, doesn't lose any of the information and the only one that makes me want to dance each time I drop the stylus in the groove.

These findings were the same with all three LP12s with three different phono stages and a different arm/cartridge on one of them. My customer hasn't had much time to listen yet but he felt that 2.6 +5 was the best setting when I played the three for him here and he said his initial reaction once he got the Klimax LP12 back in his system was that it had improved.

That should give everyone something to play around with. I do feel each of them is the optimum in their range. But I'm quite happy with 2.6 +5. And before Tendaberry asks, no I didn't make clips.
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Re: Karousel

Post by tokenbrit »

Happy Torquesgiving :)
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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

As always ... ThomasOK ...

Thank you for your work and for share your findings ...
Music First ...
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

Thanks Tomas, very illuminating!
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

I installed a Karousel today and used Thomas recommended torque of 2.6 Nm +5 steps (~2.7 Nm) for the first time.

Never been this impressed by a Karousel before. I only listened to one album while working with other things, but it repeatedly gripped me.

No comparisons with other torques.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-27 18:53 I installed a Karousel today and used Thomas recommended torque of 2.6 Nm +5 steps (~2.7 Nm) for the first time.

Never been this impressed by a Karousel before. I only listened to one album while working with other things, but it repeatedly gripped me.

No comparisons with other torques.
Good news Lejonklou!

Now we only need a clip of 2.6 +5 maybe compared to the original Linn recommended torque.

:-)
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-27 18:53 I installed a Karousel today and used Thomas recommended torque of 2.6 Nm +5 steps (~2.7 Nm) for the first time.

Never been this impressed by a Karousel before. I only listened to one album while working with other things, but it repeatedly gripped me.

No comparisons with other torques.
that gives at least some relieve but being more impressed than before does that also lift the Karousel over the Cirkus benchmark in your opinion?

Now only my Ekos 2 has to arrive back from Linn to start replacing the parts which need to be replaced incl. the Karousel on my LP12 (since June without LP12)
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Re: Karousel

Post by Efraim roots »

Exciting report Thomas! I will definitely try the 2.6+5 setting again! It was my first test just after i loosened my very tight original installation which had been running in for months. So maybe that's just not a fair comparison. Excited to hear that Lejonklou installed a karousel too :)
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