Karousel

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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ThomasOK
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

OK, I've about had it with Clips and Karousels! These things are about to drive me bonkers. I'll try to answer the various questions here and I'll start by thanking those with nice comments about my system. It will soon be better but more on that later. On with Part 1.

For starters, both are indeed the Karousel and are also the same exact system recorded 7 minutes apart. The difference is that A is my old Karousel torque of 4.0 -2 and B is my new Karousel torque of 2.6 +3. Yes, you read that right, almost everybody prefers the torque I just replaced with my new improved one! So one explanation is that I'm going deaf. However, I did that torque with my friend Simon in the room and he can't wait for me to do it to his LP12. I also compared the torques in the store for one of the other guys here on the Klimax LP12 I did the testing with and he was quite impressed by the improvement of the new torque.

So it must be the clips. Except that I listened to them on the phone and off the web before I posted them and I always preferred B. Also yesterday I had the customer come in for the LP12 I did the torque evaluations on. He brought it in solely so that I could do the improved torque. I haven't yet heard back from him so I can't say how he liked it at home. But I played the clips for him right off the phone speakers, without telling him which was which, and when he heard B he immediately said "There's much more going on there." He was actually surprised to hear the difference as he was skeptical when I told him about us using clips.

But this overwhelming preference for A made me go back and listen to the clips again. Initially, I heard the same things I had heard in them before: deeper, more textured and more fluid bass, more emotion in the singing and a quality that had me grooving to the piece on B that were all not there on A. But then I decided to try linking to them again directly from my first post instead of the quotation in another post and they sounded different. Now I have three copies of A and two of B open in tabs in this window. If I listen to the best A vs. the worst B it A is more musical. If I listen to the best A vs. the best B then B easily wins. We obviously don't have to go into the worst A vs. the best B. So I'm not happy that I can't seem to make a worthwhile, controlled A/B using clips of this. But there it is.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Part 2. The torque testing. I had mentioned before that I found 3.4 even more musical than the 4.0 -2 I had initially used and better than anything around there or inbetween. I won't go into the history of all that except to say it was Linn changing the recommended torque from 4.0 to 3.5 that had me testing lower torques than I had originally where I started a little below 3.8. However, there is another document where Linn said 3.0 and Fredrik had mused that it might be worth checking even lower. Also the 3.4 came about testing on a Kore and I wanted to verify on a Keel, but without tearing my system apart once again.

When my customer wanted to bring in his Klimax LP12 for me to lower the torque to 3.4 I was elated as I had a couple of days to play with it all I wanted. His was set to 4.0 -2 so I first checked again at 3.4 and it was definitely more musical, more organic and full without losing any of the additional information - it just gelled together better. So then to try other torques I hadn't tried (which had been limited to a number of settings between 3.2 and 4.0). I first tried 3.0 and it was not an improvement, nor was 2.8, both of which were worse than 3.4. Then I tried what I thought was 2.6 (it was actually 2.6 +1) and was surprised at how good it was. I tried 2.4 and it was again worse. So going back to 2.6 exactly I found it was good but not as good as +1. That lead to tests at +2, +3 and +4 and +3 was where it all really came together with what I felt was the most musical sound I had heard from the Karousel. I compared that to 3.4 for my associate and he felt the same. It seemed to me to do the same things the 3.4 setting had done compared to the 4.0 -2 but even more. I went on to try 2.2 and 2.0 but they were just of even more in the direction of 2.4 being a bit duller and lifeless in comparison. I also tested the bearing housing cap. I don't have a torque driver that goes above 4.0 so I couldn't test the 6.5 Linn put in one document, but considering not one of the Karousels came from the factory tightened to anywhere near that I wasn't too concerned. Plus one of the Linn people had said it should be 3.5, the same as the top. I hadn't tried that high before as it was also higher than they came from the factory but decided to expand my range. I tried 3.4 and it was not as musical. I tried 2.6 +3 and it also wasn't an improvement. I went back to 2.4 +2 which I had been using from the beginning, and which is close to where Linn sets them, and again found that very good. Even though I had tried it initially I also went down to 2.4 even and found that 2.4 +2 was the best.

So those are my torques for the Karousel on a Keel: 2.6 +3 notches for the top nut and 2.4 +2 notches for the thrust plate cap on the bottom. I haven't verified the top nut on a Kore/Majik sub chassis yet but will soon. Give them a try and see what you think.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

Hi Thomas,
thank you for all your work and for continuously pushing yourself to find out the best setting. I understand its a lot of time what you spent on this and we all appreciate to have you as a source of this information.
Please go on even if you might feel frustrated.

In this case its clearly A for me ... but I am wrong most of the time thats why I usually hold my opinion back.

What does the Karousel do to create so much controversy with regards to the clips? Its a mystery to me.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Part 3. Miscellaneous questions. What was that light flashing on the right Quad? Beats me! It could be the light reflecting off the panel being modulated by the movement to reproduce music. However, I noticed it on the iPhone as I was recording but couldn't see it directly, even moving my head around. So either it was at just the right angle or there was a lens/recording blip from the iPhone.

What happened to the JBLs? I still have them and the are for sale. They are still quite good but I find the Quads to be more musical and to do everything I want (at least until the Lejonklou speaker comes out). I haven't put much energy into selling them but as I own the Quads, Meridian M3s and three pair of Isobariks, among others, I really don't have a use for them. They have the external crossover mod and midnight blue metallic automotive vinyl wrap as I all detailed somewhere else here and are all boxed up. I was thinking about $1300 for the pair, any takers?

"Nice to hear your system again, Tom." Thanks. You haven't heard it much because it is more a work in progress than usual. My personal Sagatun Monos have been out on loan for review for several months along with my demo pair of Tundra Monos (different from my personal units as they run on 230 Volts - not useful for demo or review). He also has three pairs of Linn Silvers, a mix of old and Mk II, and a pair of black K200 that are coming back. Another set of Silvers and black K200 just came back with the stereo units mentioned below. So the cabling in my current system isn't what it usually is, as you might imagine. My demo Entity is also on loan. I used a demo Sagatun stereo briefly but that also went out on loan to David who loved and bought the Boazu and wrote that lovely review for Stereo Times. So for several months I have been using a borrowed KK, sometimes you have to slum it a bit. ;-) (No offense intended, it is a fine preamp but I miss my SMs.) So I haven't been doing some of the comparisons I hoped to do as the system is different.

I just received the Sagatun and Tundra stereo units back the end of last week. I've used them in the store for a couple of comparisons an was planning on taking the Sagatun home but this morning I received a text from Jules Coleman who is the one reviewing them and the Entity. He is going to be packing up the Sagatun and Tundra Monos next week and shipping them back so I may just wait for them. Or maybe not. He has had things going on that put him well behind schedule, but he has finished the reviews and they are supposed to be put out in the December issue of Enjoy The Music, the online publication. I understand they will be two separate reviews but published at the same time. Then the Entity review, not yet completed, will follow in January. The double good news is that we will be seeing some very positive reviews here before long and I will get my system back. :-) I think that pretty much covers it! But here is a little bonus:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eujs58p7rpddu ... M.mov?dl=0
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-14 18:30 .But then I decided to try linking to them again directly from my first post instead of the quotation in another post and they sounded different. Now I have three copies of A and two of B open in tabs in this window. If I listen to the best A vs. the worst B it A is more musical. If I listen to the best A vs. the best B then B easily wins. We obviously don't have to go into the worst A vs. the best B. So I'm not happy that I can't seem to make a worthwhile, controlled A/B using clips of this. But there it is.
That's not good news. I've never tried multiple tabs and different ways of linking to a file so will have another listen later.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

Good to know you're getting back on track Thomas. For a minute I thought there had been a bit of a u-turn...
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-14 18:30 both are indeed the Karousel and are also the same exact system
Yes, I really did do a double take!
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-14 19:41 But here is a little bonus:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eujs58p7rpddu ... M.mov?dl=0
The ESLs can rock can't they - sounding really good.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-10-14 14:49
Lego wrote: 2020-10-14 12:55 A,more emotion as soon as he starts singing,please tell me it's the Karousel
Leo, you dumb, dumb! ;-)

It is Karousel all the time. He is testing original Linn silvers against the new Linn silvers!

Actually I do not know. I am only guessing.........
That's disappointing ,that's what I get for jumping into clips with eyes closed.
I must admit ,when I went from A to B, I thought B sounded more impressive(hi-fi)then when I went back to A ,A sounded the way I felt when I went from A to B but noticed added emotion .. Weird
I know that tune
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Same here Leo. :-)

To me it is not weird. There is not one truth out there.

You have to be “deadly” aware of what you want from your system to get a satisfying result. You have to satisfy your own expectations.

It all ties back to an old discussion regarding what hifi should strive to recreate.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

A for me Thomas ...
B is like something is changed in system ... much different ...

Edit: Now I read what was written chronologically by all ...

I listen only one tab open ... close it and to next clip again one tab open ... (as I always do) .....

A for me definitely.

Bonus is as always good Thomas system (not like B) ...
Music First ...
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Re: Karousel

Post by Freddy »

Can it be worthwhile using Audacity or similar instead of phone recordings? In case of changes that is only involving the the LP12 it should be possible hear changes better when you have high quality recordings! It may be that these lowFi recordings missing important information and therefore we end up in strange results.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Freddy wrote: 2020-10-15 16:07 Can it be worthwhile using Audacity or similar instead of phone recordings? In case of changes that is only involving the the LP12 it should be possible hear changes better when you have high quality recordings! It may be that these lowFi recordings missing important information and therefore we end up in strange results.
The Karousel is actually the one thing on this forum that has been presented in many different ways including big quality recorded files.

The results has been kind of similar to the ones above.

When in doubt live demo is the way to go.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Freddy »

beck wrote: 2020-10-15 16:30
Freddy wrote: 2020-10-15 16:07 Can it be worthwhile using Audacity or similar instead of phone recordings? In case of changes that is only involving the the LP12 it should be possible hear changes better when you have high quality recordings! It may be that these lowFi recordings missing important information and therefore we end up in strange results.
The Karousel is actually the one thing on this forum that has been presented in many different ways including big quality recorded files.

The results has been kind of similar to the ones above.

When in doubt live demo is the way to go.
Thanks Beck! I have apparently missed that comparison! Will try to do some recordings when I got one installed. If it is worthwhile doing.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Good morning Thomas, congratulations on getting your mono power amplifiers back...I know you missed them a lot! And for me, clip A does sound better (and more musical) than clip B. The drums, finger snapping and vocals sound more natural and realistic.

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Re: Karousel

Post by HBE »

Same here. A sounds much better than B. Surprised that the sound quality is so dependent of the torque.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Here's another little update. I just had time to play around with the Karousel top nut on the store demo Majik LP12. Interestingly it is still the most musical at the 3.4Nm even setting I had found before on the Kore. I tried both the 4.0 -2 again (just for additional verification) and the 2.6 +3 I had found on the Keel and the 3.4 was still the one with the musical magic. So if you have a Kore or a Majik with the aluminum sub chassis I would stick with 3.4Nm for the top and 2.4 +2 notches for the bottom.

Considering this I am going to do a little more evaluation on the Keel torque. I didn't think about it at the time as I normally wouldn't expect it to change the proper torque value, but the Klimax LP12 I did the tests on had Nordost cables going out from the Urika. On my LP12 I didn't even try the 3.4 setting as I had found 2.6 +3 better on that other table in the store. I just went from 4.0 -2 directly to 2.6 +3. While I still like that better I'm going to play some more with one or two Klimax LP12s before I state with certainty the best torque. Update to follow...
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Re: Karousel

Post by sunbeamgls »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-16 19:30 Here's another little update. I just had time to play around with the Karousel top nut on the store demo Majik LP12. Interestingly it is still the most musical at the 3.4Nm even setting I had found before on the Kore. I tried both the 4.0 -2 again (just for additional verification) and the 2.6 +3 I had found on the Keel and the 3.4 was still the one with the musical magic. So if you have a Kore or a Majik with the aluminum sub chassis I would stick with 3.4Nm for the top and 2.4 +2 notches for the bottom.

Considering this I am going to do a little more evaluation on the Keel torque. I didn't think about it at the time as I normally wouldn't expect it to change the proper torque value, but the Klimax LP12 I did the tests on had Nordost cables going out from the Urika. On my LP12 I didn't even try the 3.4 setting as I had found 2.6 +3 better on that other table in the store. I just went from 4.0 -2 directly to 2.6 +3. While I still like that better I'm going to play some more with one or two Klimax LP12s before I state with certainty the best torque. Update to follow...
It does seem reasonable that each subchassis material should end up with different optimal torque settings. Their natural resonance frequencies will be different and the amount the material compresses under the nut will vary. So the interface transmitting the vibrations of the bearing into the subchassis may well have an optimal setting.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tony Tune-age »

HBE wrote: 2020-10-16 14:54 Surprised that the sound quality is so dependent of the torque.
It's been like that with every torqued component in my system. And it's never failed to be impressive either!

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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-10-16 22:01 It does seem reasonable that each subchassis material should end up with different optimal torque settings. Their natural resonance frequencies will be different and the amount the material compresses under the nut will vary. So the interface transmitting the vibrations of the bearing into the subchassis may well have an optimal setting.
This is how it has been in the past. I have three different torques for the Cirkus bearing to a Keel, a Kore/Majik and a Cirkus sub chassis. Plus the interface of the bearing housing to the bottom of a Keel is quite different to that on the other units.
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Re: Karousel

Post by John »

Freddy wrote: 2020-10-15 16:07 Can it be worthwhile using Audacity or similar instead of phone recordings? In case of changes that is only involving the the LP12 it should be possible hear changes better when you have high quality recordings! It may be that these lowFi recordings missing important information and therefore we end up in strange results.
I agree!
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Re: Karousel

Post by sittertal »

For me B is the winner. I had to listen several times. Only after I stopped comparing details and concentrated on the body feeling (in other words: Stop thinking and watching the reaction of the belly) I realised I was more relaxed when listening to B. That‘s what’s important to me.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-10-14 19:53 Good to know you're getting back on track Thomas. For a minute I thought there had been a bit of a u-turn...
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-14 18:30 both are indeed the Karousel and are also the same exact system
Yes, I really did do a double take!
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-14 19:41 But here is a little bonus:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eujs58p7rpddu ... M.mov?dl=0
The ESLs can rock can't they - sounding really good.
Oh no, you apparently haven't read the audiophile press properly! The Quads are only good for chamber music and small ensemble jazz and have no bass-they say so. ;-) I glad you liked the clip. It will get even better soon. Then maybe some more comparisons of things I am playing with.
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Re: Karousel

Post by markiteight »

sittertal wrote: 2020-10-17 17:16
For me B is the winner. I had to listen several times. Only after I stopped comparing details and concentrated on the body feeling (in other words: Stop thinking and watching the reaction of the belly) I realised I was more relaxed when listening to B. That‘s what’s important to me.
I've been more or less away from the forums for the past few months but now that the weather is cooling off I'll be spending a lot more time indoors and in front of my system (I hope...).

I have a lot of catching up to do! Sitteral's post was the first I came across on this thread and I linked to the clips directly from there, took a brief listen to each, and picked B. Then I went back and read through all the other responses, including Thomas' explanations. As George Takei would say, oh myyyyy...
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-14 19:41 But here is a little bonus:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eujs58p7rpddu ... M.mov?dl=0
I have to admit I am not a Chris Cornell fan. He is still Seattle's musical sweetheart and the local radio stations play him every other song (or so it seems) and have done for 20+ years. I wouldn't be surprised if KZOK still plays Black Hole Sun at least 5x a day. I'm just Cornell'ed out! So when I clicked play and heard the the opening bars of BHS I rolled my eyes and was about to hit the back button, but something made me pause. Next thing I knew I'd listened to the entire song like I'd never heard it before! Thomas, even without your SMs, you have something very, very special there!
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Thanks for the comment, I do quite enjoy the system. I did connect my demo Sagatun stereo back up this weekend after listening to a few Elvis tracks off a best of album that I and my friend found rather uninspiring. Put on the same record with the Sagatun in the system in place of the KK/2 and even with the Sagatun still cold we couldn't believe how much more fun the album was. Hopefully the Monos will be back soon and I can return to what I am used to and try a couple possible improvements. There is also an interesting story about my system that causes some consternation but I will leave that for a little later.

For now another pair of clips, but from a different system. These work better on my iPhone than dropbox but I still think you can hear the difference. Once again these will be blind initially.

Clip 1:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7awkk250ezig ... M.mov?dl=0

Clip 2:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hix4flxkyug79 ... M.mov?dl=0
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

I enjoy clip 1 more especially about 40 sec onwards once the track has settled into its enjoyable rhythm. Just makes more sense to me and comes together better.

Both sound really good though. If I wasn't hung up on vintage Linn Kans and Briks then I'd defo explore these old Quad speakers.
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Re: Karousel

Post by OscarH »

Clip 1 for me.
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