Karousel

[beck]

Maybe a bit unfair but I have to say that Linn must have lost their good ears.

No difference when motor touches the tramp? Klimax DSM discontinued (for a while)! Sondek drive belt changed to an inferior one (for a while)!

Karousel torque set to 4.0 (for a while)!


I have also listened to Vivaldi now with same obvious result. 3.4 is better for me.



Blind tests ongoing now. Comments tonight at 22 GMT.

[lejonklou]

After ThomasOk's post about the lower torque setting (page 21) I have made some recordings at 4.0Nm and 3.4Nm.
I've also tried some other settings but 3.4Nm is the best sounding for me.
To hear the different torque settings by your own ears, I've put 6 tracks in a zip-file.
The link opens a page with some text and the zip-file. (This is my personal server.)
Karousel zip

Now I have listened to all three. Great job Ido!

Big improvement with 3.4 Nm, I think. 4.0 is stiff and boring in comparison. Couldn't bear listening to the end of any of those clips.

Unfortunately the 3.4 clips still have some of that staccato one-note bass and detail-orientedness that I hear on Karousel decks live. It's as if every note and every sound starts and stops abruptly, giving a false impression of "clarity" while ruining the nuances of the interplay. My Cirkus deck doesn't sound this way at all, it appears less "clear" as each note doesn't stand out so much, but together they connect and create a whole that is bigger than its parts (i.e. the music makes sense).

It will be really interesting to hear what the lower nut torque can do to_perhaps_ improve things a little more.

Frankly I'm surprised they settled for a removable cap at the bottom. All that talk of cutting things from one piece (Klimax chassis, Keel) but the most important detail of an entire vinyl system is a screw-on cap that they don't even know what torque to fasten with?

[FairPlayMotty]

Won't the nm vary by deck as ThomasOK indicated previously?

[lejonklou]

Won't the nm vary by deck as ThomasOK indicated previously?

No torques on the LP12 vary with the deck, as far as I'm concerned. The fasteners all have their optimal (and suboptimal) peaks and they are not interdependent.

[FairPlayMotty]

Won't the nm vary by deck as ThomasOK indicated previously?

No torques on the LP12 vary with the deck, as far as I'm concerned. The fasteners all have their optimal (and suboptimal) peaks and they are not interdependent.

I think the point ThomasOK made (I can't find his quote) was that each Keel, Radikal and plinth will vary so having precise and consistent torque ratings would be difficult from deck to deck.

[lejonklou]

Won't the nm vary by deck as ThomasOK indicated previously?

No torques on the LP12 vary with the deck, as far as I'm concerned. The fasteners all have their optimal (and suboptimal) peaks and they are not interdependent.

I think the point ThomasOK made (I can't find his quote) was that each Keel, Radikal and plinth will vary so having precise and consistent torque ratings would be difficult from deck to deck.

It seems you have misunderstood him. We've been confirming and re-confirming torques on a wide range of HiFi products over the years and the optimal torque numbers are both precise and consistent.

There is a small difference (an offset) between tools that can easily be found by ear using known and easy to judge fasteners like the arm height lock screw. The offset can vary over the range of the tool (low, mid and high). Therefore, all recommended values should be regarded as approximate and if you really want to dial things in, you need to use your ears and your own tool. Now we're talking small variations, as the Sturtevant Richmont tools are remarkably precise and similar, despite their rather hefty promised +-6% precision.

Then you can of course take things further and try to find an even higher precision than the less-than-half-a-percent step that is easily obtained with this tool. That is practically possible and I'm quite sure the results will be consistent and repeatable. We might find there, up on the top of the peak, that there are tiny variations between specimen of parts. I think this will be true for everything; if you just zoom in close enough, you'll find a difference. But to optimize the performance of an LP12, we don't have to go that far. We get high enough on the peak as it is.

If you haven't got one of these tools, I highly recommend that you get one. It can massively improve the musical performance of your system.

[FairPlayMotty]

Very informative Fredrik!

[Ianw]

No torques on the LP12 vary with the deck, as far as I'm concerned. The fasteners all have their optimal (and suboptimal) peaks and they are not interdependent.

I think the point ThomasOK made (I can't find his quote) was that each Keel, Radikal and plinth will vary so having precise and consistent torque ratings would be difficult from deck to deck.

It seems you have misunderstood him. We've been confirming and re-confirming torques on a wide range of HiFi products over the years and the optimal torque numbers are both precise and consistent.

There is a small difference (an offset) between tools that can easily be found by ear using known and easy to judge fasteners like the arm height lock screw. The offset can vary over the range of the tool (low, mid and high). Therefore, all recommended values should be regarded as approximate and if you really want to dial things in, you need to use your ears and your own tool. Now we're talking small variations, as the Sturtevant Richmont tools are remarkably precise and similar, despite their rather hefty promised +-6% precision.

Then you can of course take things further and try to find an even higher precision than the less-than-half-a-percent step that is easily obtained with this tool. That is practically possible and I'm quite sure the results will be consistent and repeatable. We might find there, up on the top of the peak, that there are tiny variations between specimen of parts. I think this will be true for everything; if you just zoom in close enough, you'll find a difference. But to optimize the performance of an LP12, we don't have to go that far. We get high enough on the peak as it is.

If you haven't got one of these tools, I highly recommend that you get one. It can massively improve the musical performance of your system.

That’s interesting. Should we consider time, temperature and humidity variations, what was right in winter might need a visit in summer to recalibrate? Metal to metal may be stable although metal to wood maybe more variable in humid countries perhaps?

Why not just set up enjoy as it is then visit again say after 6 months but the point is to enjoy the music after all.


Ian

[lejonklou]

That’s interesting. Should we consider time, temperature and humidity variations, what was right in winter might need a visit in summer to recalibrate? Metal to metal may be stable although metal to wood maybe more variable in humid countries perhaps?

Why not just set up enjoy as it is then visit again say after 6 months but the point is to enjoy the music after all.

Yes, the fasteners that go through wood are definitely affected by temperature and humidity.

On the LP12, there's the front and rear center bolts that hold the top plate down and the metal bracket up. In between the metal parts there are blocks of hardwood. And there's the left rear corner bolt that presses the top plate corner against the plinth - that bolt ends below and pushes against the wooden corner brace.

These three fasteners become tight in the summer, when the wood expands. This is easy to feel by hand when you loosen them and the LP12 sounds a bit hard and stiff before adjust them. If you tighten them to the optimal torque in the summer, they will get rather loose in the winter (at least here in the north, where the winter makes the air very dry), which is also easily felt when you loosen them, and the LP12 will sound a bit loose and sloppy.

I know quite a few people who've made it a habit to adjust these three fasteners twice a year - once during dry season and once during damp season. Personally, I feel this is enough to bring the LP12 up to top performance and I don't bother with the all-metal fasteners if they've been properly torqued fairly recently.

But this might be interesting: It seems the optimal torque is exactly the same for these fasteners, regardless of the season and their "state of swelling". If you, however, change any of the parts, such as a washer or a nut, the optimal torque usually changes as well. Thomas O'Keefe has kept track of and tested all the various nuts and washers that Linn have supplied during the years and he has optimized the torque for every one of them.

[Discodave]

I remember on your visit to Ireland Frederik we met and discussed the optimal torque for Majik 109s which you helpfully provided me with (cheers again). Is there anyway to access these complete torque settings for the LP12 you refer to or am I overreaching in this request?

As I dont have access to you or Tom it would be great to instruct my dealer with such comprehensive expertise. However, I can understand if this is something you guys perhaps would prefer to keep in house.

[lejonklou]

Hello Discodave!

I need to refer you to Thomas O'Keefe with your request. He got me into using a torque tool and ever since he's been the head of a small torque group, where we collect and share values of various fasteners.

For the value for a specific fastener, you can always simply ask here on the forum and you will get an answer.

[Discodave]

Ha I wouldn't know where to start with fasteners, washers, nuts etc. I'm pretty clueless on the finer lp12 points.

I shall send Tom a pm.

Thanks for response

[ThomasOK]

As Fredrik has covered the vagaries of torque, and more often the lack of them, there is not much I have to add. I do imagine the confusion that lead to the FairPlayMotty post is that there can be different torques with different sub-chassis. So the torque to fasten a Cirkus is different on a steel Cirkus sub-chassis than it is on the aluminum Majik and Kore units and different again on the Keel. It is also different for the new Lingo 4 motor than it is for the older AC motor and those are both different from the Radikal motor. But, as was stated, the torques have been very consistent from one turntable to another when torquing the same parts. This has even been the case with fastening the hinge plates to the plinth. Despite the fact that these use different woods, I have tried and found the same torque works with them all, even though I had originally expected it would differ.

By the way, one of the things I love about my custom Chris Harban plinth, besides just how musical it is, is that when I told him of the importance of the top plate torques he started using wood for the wood strips the top plate sits on and the blocks it fastens to that has less variation and compressibility. He also finishes those parts so there is less tendency to shift with changes in humidity.

[FairPlayMotty]

As perfection doesn't exist on this plane of existence, each Kandid, each Radikal, certainly each plinth and even each Keel will sound a little (or sometimes a fair bit) different.

That's what led to my misunderstanding. If each one can sound sometimes a fair bit different I assumed that small adjustments would be necessary to achieve a consistent sound. Was I wrong?

[ThomasOK]

As perfection doesn't exist on this plane of existence, each Kandid, each Radikal, certainly each plinth and even each Keel will sound a little (or sometimes a fair bit) different.

That's what led to my misunderstanding. If each one can sound sometimes a fair bit different I assumed that small adjustments would be necessary to achieve a consistent sound. Was I wrong?

I see where you are coming from but that is the wrong assumption. There are slight musical differences from component to component, and even from cable to cable. Fredrik told me years ago that each interconnect cable sounds slightly different. So I got around 8 pair of original Linn Silver interconnects and listened to each one individually ranking them 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. I then paired 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and so on. I did the same for a customer who listened while I did it and heard it all. However, the slight musical differences are inherent to the inability to build anything 100% perfectly. Those differences can't be tuned out with a change in torque. If they could I'm sure Fredrik would already be doing it. So you will achieve the peak performance of any Kandid at the same torque, but each will be very slightly different.

[bryamacada]

Unfortunately the 3.4 clips still have some of that staccato one-note bass and detail-orientedness that I hear on Karousel decks live. It's as if every note and every sound starts and stops abruptly, giving a false impression of "clarity" while ruining the nuances of the interplay. My Cirkus deck doesn't sound this way at all, it appears less "clear" as each note doesn't stand out so much, but together they connect and create a whole that is bigger than its parts (i.e. the music makes sense).

It will be really interesting to hear what the lower nut torque can do to_perhaps_ improve things a little more.

Frankly I'm surprised they settled for a removable cap at the bottom. All that talk of cutting things from one piece (Klimax chassis, Keel) but the most important detail of an entire vinyl system is a screw-on cap that they don't even know what torque to fasten with?

I believe this is a major design flaw. The anti-clockwise rotational pressure of the spindle will gradually loosen the lower nut. As far as I know the thread for the lower nut is a normal clockwise one...

[matthias]

Unfortunately the 3.4 clips still have some of that staccato one-note bass and detail-orientedness that I hear on Karousel decks live. It's as if every note and every sound starts and stops abruptly, giving a false impression of "clarity" while ruining the nuances of the interplay. My Cirkus deck doesn't sound this way at all, it appears less "clear" as each note doesn't stand out so much, but together they connect and create a whole that is bigger than its parts (i.e. the music makes sense).

It will be really interesting to hear what the lower nut torque can do to_perhaps_ improve things a little more.

Frankly I'm surprised they settled for a removable cap at the bottom. All that talk of cutting things from one piece (Klimax chassis, Keel) but the most important detail of an entire vinyl system is a screw-on cap that they don't even know what torque to fasten with?

I believe this is a major design flaw. The anti-clockwise rotational pressure of the spindle will gradually loosen the lower nut. As far as I know the thread for the lower nut is a normal clockwise one...

Agree,
the removable cap does not make sense at all. There can occur slight movements or resonances on micron level which can be detrimental for playback quality. A great pity.

Matt

[Nicolav]

Unfortunately the 3.4 clips still have some of that staccato one-note bass and detail-orientedness that I hear on Karousel decks live. It's as if every note and every sound starts and stops abruptly, giving a false impression of "clarity" while ruining the nuances of the interplay. My Cirkus deck doesn't sound this way at all, it appears less "clear" as each note doesn't stand out so much, but together they connect and create a whole that is bigger than its parts (i.e. the music makes sense).

It will be really interesting to hear what the lower nut torque can do to_perhaps_ improve things a little more.

Frankly I'm surprised they settled for a removable cap at the bottom. All that talk of cutting things from one piece (Klimax chassis, Keel) but the most important detail of an entire vinyl system is a screw-on cap that they don't even know what torque to fasten with?

I believe this is a major design flaw. The anti-clockwise rotational pressure of the spindle will gradually loosen the lower nut. As far as I know the thread for the lower nut is a normal clockwise one...

Agree,
the removable cap does not make sense at all. There can occur slight movements or resonances on micron level which can be detrimental for playback quality. A great pity.

Matt

Hi Matt,

Right observation, but not a great pity if don't if it doesn't affect musicality.

And to me it seems that karousel is a big step up from the cirkus

Regards Nicola

[matthias]

Right observation, but not a great pity if don't if it doesn't affect musicality.
And to me it seems that karousel is a big step up from the cirkus

Hi Nicola,
I hope you are right. Maybe Linn can manufacture the bearing more precisely when it is made from two parts.
The clips I have listened to so far did not convince me that the Karousel is musically superior.

Matt

[PaulC]

I've had my ALP12 with Karousel for a few weeks now and for me it is a completely different beast compared to the LP12 I had 20 years ago (with cirkus). I would suggest that they cannot even be compared, the difference is that big.

[ThomasOK]

Right observation, but not a great pity if don't if it doesn't affect musicality.
And to me it seems that karousel is a big step up from the cirkus

Hi Nicola,
I hope you are right. Maybe Linn can manufacture the bearing more precisely when it is made from two parts.
The clips I have listened to so far did not convince me that the Karousel is musically superior.

Matt

I will admit I was initially concerned with the idea of the bearing cap for the same reasons some here have mentioned.
(Except for the idea of it loosening up. I don't believe a single point lubricated contact at the center point of rotation could create enough friction to cause a cap tightened to this high a torque to loosen up over time. There is also an o-ring in there to seal the oil well which will also exert some tension to keep things from moving.) However, the thrust plate cap does fasten at a pretty high torque.

Although Linn don't actually state this, my feeling is that this was done for two reasons. 1) To allow the more precise machining of the bearing sleeves, which seems like it should be easier to do without the thrust plate in the way. 2) To be able to precisely mount the thrust plate into the cap, which I think would be difficult at the bottom of a one piece housing. Note that on the Cirkus, and all previous bearings the thrust plate is mounted from the bottom, not from the top.

Whatever the real story is, I do find it to be a quite substantial musical improvement. I am still not 100% sure we have completely zeroed in on the best torques and I will be testing this more when I have the opportunity but it is already very, very good with the current 3.4Nm top and the 2.4Nm +2 notches for the bottom I have been using. (And, yes, there have been some confusing variations from Linn on what torques should be used.)

[Nicolav]

Right observation, but not a great pity if don't if it doesn't affect musicality.
And to me it seems that karousel is a big step up from the cirkus

Hi Nicola,
I hope you are right. Maybe Linn can manufacture the bearing more precisely when it is made from two parts.
The clips I have listened to so far did not convince me that the Karousel is musically superior.

Matt

I will admit I was initially concerned with the idea of the bearing cap for the same reasons some here have mentioned.
(Except for the idea of it loosening up. I don't believe a single point lubricated contact at the center point of rotation could create enough friction to cause a cap tightened to this high a torque to loosen up over time. There is also an o-ring in there to seal the oil well which will also exert some tension to keep things from moving.) However, the thrust plate cap does fasten at a pretty high torque.

Although Linn don't actually state this, my feeling is that this was done for two reasons. 1) To allow the more precise machining of the bearing sleeves, which seems like it should be easier to do without the thrust plate in the way. 2) To be able to precisely mount the thrust plate into the cap, which I think would be difficult at the bottom of a one piece housing. Note that on the Cirkus, and all previous bearings the thrust plate is mounted from the bottom, not from the top.

Whatever the real story is, I do find it to be a quite substantial musical improvement. I am still not 100% sure we have completely zeroed in on the best torques and I will be testing this more when I have the opportunity but it is already very, very good with the current 3.4Nm top and the 2.4Nm +2 notches for the bottom I have been using. (And, yes, there have been some confusing variations from Linn on what torques should be used.)

Hi Thomas,
seems that the recent documentation from Linn he established the torque value for the bottom cap at 6.5 Nm.
Linn also recommends to not to exceed 7.5 Nm.

[ThomasOK]

(And, yes, there have been some confusing variations from Linn on what torques should be used.)

Hi Thomas,
seems that the recent documentation from Linn he established the torque value for the bottom cap at 6.5 Nm.
Linn also recommends to not to exceed 7.5 Nm.

True, but that document is also one where Linn state 3.0Nm for the top nut while the actual installation document still says 3.5Nm (after originally saying 4.0Nm). However, in a recent zoom presentation Gordon Inch was claimed to have said that the torque for BOTH the top and bottom should be 3.5Nm. And I've still yet to find any Karousels coming from Linn that appear to be at such elevated torques as either of those (3.5Nm or 6.5Nm) on the thrust plate cap. Hence the confusion.

[Nicolav]

(And, yes, there have been some confusing variations from Linn on what torques should be used.)

Hi Thomas,
seems that the recent documentation from Linn he established the torque value for the bottom cap at 6.5 Nm.
Linn also recommends to not to exceed 7.5 Nm.

True, but that document is also one where Linn state 3.0Nm for the top nut while the actual installation document still says 3.5Nm (after originally saying 4.0Nm). However, in a recent zoom presentation Gordon Inch was claimed to have said that the torque for BOTH the top and bottom should be 3.5Nm. And I've still yet to find any Karousels coming from Linn that appear to be at such elevated torques as either of those (3.5Nm or 6.5Nm) on the thrust plate cap. Hence the confusion.

Argg, so much confusion!

[Charlie1]

The Karousel just didn't work out for me in the end. It wasn't helped by lack of synergy with my late 80s/early 90s system but, even so, I don't think it was ever gonna be my cup of tea. PM me if anyone is interested in buying it.

The deck has now been fitted with a black liner bearing and serviced Lingo 1 which I'm really enjoying a lot.