Karousel

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Re: Karousel

Post by PaulC »

Fredrik, Thomas, I appreciate your replies, thanks. I will keep what you have both written in mind. At the end of the day I think it is worth testing a situation in which all three assumptions hold. If it can ultimately lead to greater validity when seeking to compare different HiFi components, e.g. Karousel v's Cirkus, via home recordings then it will be worth the effort. I will try to create such a test and report back. Still waiting for delivery of my new system though so it may take some time. Cheers, Paul
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Good luck PaulC.

In the meantime you can listen to the new blind test and give me your bid. :-)
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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-08-22 16:31
David Neel wrote: 2020-08-22 08:13
Spannko wrote: 2020-08-21 21:08 Does your top plate have the corner bolt? I’ve never heard a comparison, but I’ve wondered for a long time if it really improves the lp12 or just makes it more impressive?
My understanding is that the corner bolt was introduced to make it easier to set up the LP12, i.e. for the benefit of the dealer as much as the listener. I've still not got one.
My belief is that it does improve the musicality of the LP12, but I have not done a direct A/B of two otherwise near-identical tables. It is true that it was fitted to make setup easier as there should be no rattling in that corner and with the bolt there that can be assured. Previous to the bolt you often had to re-bend the top plate to make it fit tightly to the plinth and not rattle. Unfortunately the same problem is just as likely to show up in the front corner and it isn't good to have it there either. So I still have to bend many of the top plates to get the proper fit, sometimes even on new LP12s. If bending the top plate sounds like a crazy thing to do I should mention that the part description for the top plate is "bent and finished top plate with stud" (or without stud as you can buy it either way). Yes, they come pre-bent from the factory but sometimes need additional work. And, yes, it is not a perfect science but more of a trial and error thing where you literally remove the top plate and bend down the side or the corner (depending on where the rattling is) then refit the top plate and check if it still rattles and repeat if necessary. One of the parts of LP12 setup where it is more experience and art than pure measurements.

The reason I feel it improves the musical quality of the LP12 is that there is a precise torque for the fastening nut at which the LP12 sounds the best. It is different with different nuts and so far I have not found a nut that sounds better there than a nylock nut so I always replace whatever comes on there with a nylock. Fredrik and Paolo have also tested this and we all agree on the most musical torque. It seems obvious to me that there is little chance of hitting the exact pressure that sounds the best on that corner by just bending it as you would without the stud. Hence my assumption that it is better with the stud.
Thanks Thomas, I hadn’t considered that the bolt could be adjusted to get just the right connection between the top plate and plinth. I can imagine that it’s something which can be easily listened to and adjusted in the jig to minimise any sample variations too. A dealer who will do this, using tune dem as a guide, is a pretty rare beast!
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Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-08-22 16:31 The reason I feel it improves the musical quality of the LP12 is that there is a precise torque for the fastening nut at which the LP12 sounds the best. It is different with different nuts and so far I have not found a nut that sounds better there than a nylock nut so I always replace whatever comes on there with a nylock. Fredrik and Paolo have also tested this and we all agree on the most musical torque. It seems obvious to me that there is little chance of hitting the exact pressure that sounds the best on that corner by just bending it as you would without the stud. Hence my assumption that it is better with the stud.
Case well made. I think a new top-plate might have to happen to my LP12, at some point.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Ianw »

Cirkus to Karousel

OK here’s my initial opinions on Cirkus change to Karousel on my Klimax LP12; done on Saturday.

First off I’d like to thank the folks at Loud and Clear, Glasgow, particularly Johnnie of AO for his epic installation/rebuild and to Ian Pirie for making it happen. I’m not affiliated with L&C.

Johnnie did a great job on this deck, the bounce is superb and the armboard perfectly aligned to top plate(not absolutely necessary to go to this level of detail but it shows that skill has been used).

I’d previously heard the L&C Super Akurate shootout. Two identical Akurate spec deck save for Karousel on one and Cirkus on the other. The “Super” elements are swap out of Akito and Krystal for AO PU7 and DV 10xxxxx....cart.

Both decks were epic, well above what I expected from Akurate, could only attribute this to the PU7 arm although, admittedly the Akurate was from memory and not a physical back to back.

Back to my deck; got it home and set it up; cooked on 33.3 for over a day.

Had an evening of serious listening and it was obvious from the start this bearing had a lower noise floor. The lead-in groove was just inky blackness/emptiness; the Cirkus is great too but the Karousel takes it up a level. This emptiness was also apparent mid track when beat changes or natural small pauses.

Could go on and on with all the usual stuff regarding detail etc all great but easiest way to sum up I guess is to say the Karousel just gets out of the way and lets the music flow better.

The Cirkus is an epic bearing and it ain’t broke; I’d be happy with it still but the Karousel is better hands down.

For £750 GBP including a rebuild and tune up it’s a bargain in Linn world.

They got it right with this bearing; great job.

To my score board that’s two major advances in the last few years, the L4 and Karousel; they’re doing something right.

AAll just my opinion and your mileage may vary.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Ianw wrote: 2020-08-24 13:59Cirkus to Karousel:

Here’s my initial opinions on Cirkus change to Karousel on my Klimax LP12; done on Saturday. Had an evening of serious listening and it was obvious from the start this bearing had a lower noise floor. The lead-in groove was just inky blackness/emptiness; the Cirkus is great too but the Karousel takes it up a level. This emptiness was also apparent mid track when beat changes or natural small pauses.

Could go on and on with all the usual stuff regarding detail etc all great but easiest way to sum up I guess is to say the Karousel just gets out of the way and lets the music flow better.

The Cirkus is an epic bearing and it ain’t broke. I’d be happy with it still, but the Karousel is better hands down. They got it right with this bearing, great job.

All just my opinion and your mileage may vary.
Good report Ianw! That was my experience when switching from the Cirkus to Karousel as well! Glad you're happy with the new bearing system!

Party on...
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Good to see your report, Ian. It corresponds with my experience as well.

I did just see that Linn has changed their recommendation for the Karousel attachment torque to 3.5Nm from the original 4.0Nm. It appears it is time to try some more torques!
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-08-22 14:07Columbia/CBS seem to have made a real mess of taking care of the Dylan masters from that period.

Roger Ford in the attached link tried to document the history of Blonde on Blonde. There are so many versions around that differ markedly in track length it's astounding.

http://www.two-riders.co.uk/bobpt1c.html
[url]http://www.two-riders.co.uk/bobpt2c.html[url]

The only upside for me is how different the versions sound, particularly the mono and stereo editions.
Sorry, I forgot to come back to you.

I didnt know any of that. So there is not always a single mono and stereo master either.

I have a couple of copies but don't think either is mono. Do you prefer that version?
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Re: Karousel

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-25 20:24 I didnt know any of that. So there is not always a single mono and stereo master either.

I have a couple of copies but don't think either is mono. Do you prefer that version?
I love both but the stereo and mono masters often sound like different sessions. The mono versions of the Dylan albums sound more new to me so I prefer them at the moment. If a huge record company can do this with the catalogue of a worldwide star, what did they do with lesser names?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-08-25 17:14 I did just see that Linn has changed their recommendation for the Karousel attachment torque to 3.5Nm from the original 4.0Nm. It appears it is time to try some more torques!
That would be most appreciated :-)
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

You might call this an interim report. I have had a chance to do my first experiments on an LP12 to which I just fitted a Radikal, Kore, Adikt/2 and Karousel. I should be able to conduct tests on a Keel relatively soon. They could be different so this isn't a blanket recommendation. I should also mention that the Linn recommendations are not completely consistent. The installation guide now says 3.5Nm instead of the original 4.0Nm (and original 5.0Nm for steel subchassis which is now not mentioned separately). However, another document that lists a couple of suggested tools gives a recommendation of 3Nm and recommends a Wera tool that comes preset from the factory at 3.0Nm, which they recommend leaving as it comes. I have not tested down to 3.0Nm as this additional information came to light after I finished the setup.

For starters I torqued the Karousel to the 4.0Nm -2 notches I had been using and then decided to try a lot lower since I hadn't been happy with 3.8+1. I have a driver that is normally preset to close to 3.4Nm (at this time it was set at 3.4Nm+2) for a few things that like torques around there so I tried that setting. It was really good! So I tried 3.6 Nm and I was not impressed then I tried a bit above and below 3.4Nm. In the end I found 3.4Nm even was easily my favorite and I think it might be the answer to some of the questions we've had up here. To me this new setting didn't seem to lose any of the low noise floor or instrumental definition but it had a fuller, more rounded and more organic quality to the sound, especially in the bass. I was playing "Hey Nineteen" by Steely Dan, a song I use a lot for setup, and had just finished clocking the platter - normally the last thing I do to an LP12. I was really enjoying the groove of the piece and texture of the bass as I dialed this last thing in. Then I tried the lower torques and thought "Wow! That bass is so much better, more potent and expansive yet still very nuanced." I have noticed when I am adjusting the platter that I sometimes find a position that just sounds so right I feel like I shouldn't even test any more. I always still do by trying a little bit on either side of it (as I just did earlier today with another LP12) just to make sure it is the best, but I usually find that I was right about it and it sometimes takes a bit of work to get back to that exact position (as it did with the aforementioned LP12). This is the feeling I got when I hit 3.4Nm even, it just sounded right and really good.

It might be worth checking some even lower torques and I have another two LP12s coming in within the next week for Karousels, one of which has a Keel, so I will be able to experiment on that as well. Based on what I heard with this table, which by the way has a Rega RB1000 on it which I thought sounded quite good, I am pretty sure I have yet to hear what the Karousel is really capable of in my system at home.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Very interesting, Thomas.

Thank you!
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-08-26 22:25 You might call this an interim report. I have had a chance to do my first experiments on an LP12 to which I just fitted a Radikal, Kore, Adikt/2 and Karousel. I should be able to conduct tests on a Keel relatively soon. They could be different so this isn't a blanket recommendation. I should also mention that the Linn recommendations are not completely consistent. The installation guide now says 3.5Nm instead of the original 4.0Nm (and original 5.0Nm for steel subchassis which is now not mentioned separately). However, another document that lists a couple of suggested tools gives a recommendation of 3Nm and recommends a Wera tool that comes preset from the factory at 3.0Nm, which they recommend leaving as it comes. I have not tested down to 3.0Nm as this additional information came to light after I finished the setup.

For starters I torqued the Karousel to the 4.0Nm -2 notches I had been using and then decided to try a lot lower since I hadn't been happy with 3.8+1. I have a driver that is normally preset to close to 3.4Nm (at this time it was set at 3.4Nm+2) for a few things that like torques around there so I tried that setting. It was really good! So I tried 3.6 Nm and I was not impressed then I tried a bit above and below 3.4Nm. In the end I found 3.4Nm even was easily my favorite and I think it might be the answer to some of the questions we've had up here. To me this new setting didn't seem to lose any of the low noise floor or instrumental definition but it had a fuller, more rounded and more organic quality to the sound, especially in the bass. I was playing "Hey Nineteen" by Steely Dan, a song I use a lot for setup, and had just finished clocking the platter - normally the last thing I do to an LP12. I was really enjoying the groove of the piece and texture of the bass as I dialed this last thing in. Then I tried the lower torques and thought "Wow! That bass is so much better, more potent and expansive yet still very nuanced." I have noticed when I am adjusting the platter that I sometimes find a position that just sounds so right I feel like I shouldn't even test any more. I always still do by trying a little bit on either side of it (as I just did earlier today with another LP12) just to make sure it is the best, but I usually find that I was right about it and it sometimes takes a bit of work to get back to that exact position (as it did with the aforementioned LP12). This is the feeling I got when I hit 3.4Nm even, it just sounded right and really good.

It might be worth checking some even lower torques and I have another two LP12s coming in within the next week for Karousels, one of which has a Keel, so I will be able to experiment on that as well. Based on what I heard with this table, which by the way has a Rega RB1000 on it which I thought sounded quite good, I am pretty sure I have yet to hear what the Karousel is really capable of in my system at home.
Did Linn not recommend different torques for each sub-chassis Thomas?
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Originally Linn recommended 4.0Nm for all aluminum sub-chassis and 5.0Nm for steel sub-chassis (meaning Cirkus sub-chassis to me as it doesn't properly fit pre-Cirkus sub-chassis). Now they recommend 3.5Nm or 3.0Nm depending on which document you look at (3.5Nm in the Installation Guide they now pack with the Karousel). There is currently no mention on the new documents of a different torque for the Cirkus sub-chassis.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-09-01 21:19 Originally Linn recommended 4.0Nm for all aluminum sub-chassis and 5.0Nm for steel sub-chassis (meaning Cirkus sub-chassis to me as it doesn't properly fit pre-Cirkus sub-chassis). Now they recommend 3.5Nm or 3.0Nm depending on which document you look at (3.5Nm in the Installation Guide they now pack with the Karousel). There is currently no mention on the new documents of a different torque for the Cirkus sub-chassis.
Kore is also a steel sub-chassis.

I'm looking forward to more experiments with torques from, let's say 2.5 Nm and up. It's unfortunate that it's such a work intensive fastener to optimize. I wonder if the bearing hole in the top plate could be made bigger without negative musical consequences (with some luck it might even sound better?) Then optimizing the torque by ear would be a breeze. Just remove the inner platter, fit the socket on the Carousel top nut, stabilize the sub-chassis with one hand and tighten the nut with the other.
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Re: Karousel

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Re: Karousel

Post by Mikeg »

The top nut is actually very easy to adjust. It's the base nut that's not
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Moomintroll wrote: 2020-09-01 22:34 Kore is aluminium...

https://www.linn.co.uk/sources/turntab ... assis#kore

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Oh, I didn't know that!
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Mikeg wrote: 2020-09-01 23:10 The top nut is actually very easy to adjust. It's the base nut that's not
Please explain!

The base nut is super easy to adjust if you leave the LP12 in the jig.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Yes, Kore is aluminum as is Majik, so all current models. As long as you are doing this with the LP12 in the jig with the bottom off it is just that simple. You just stabilize the sub-chassis and adjust the top nut from above, it doesn't require a larger hole in the top plate (although that would make fitting a Karousel much easier). My biggest concern was losing some oil which could cause a change. I have found that I can set the top plastic foam piece from the Karousel kit on a counter and put the inner platter/spindle upside down on it with the record spindle in the hole. With it perfectly upside down like that it doesn't lose any oil in the time it takes to change the torque.

I do plan to experiment with a wider range of torques and with them on a Keel when time allows. Today I was tied up most of the day with putting a Radikal, Karousel, Adikt, Trampolin 2 and a customer supplied GreenStreet sub-chassis in a late 80s LP12 for a customer from out of state.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for explaining.

So it's not as complicated as I thought, then. From memory I had the impression that the socket didn't fit the hole in the top plate.

Looking forward to the results!
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Re: Karousel

Post by Mikeg »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-09-01 23:12
Mikeg wrote: 2020-09-01 23:10 The top nut is actually very easy to adjust. It's the base nut that's not
Please explain!

The base nut is super easy to adjust if you leave the LP12 in the jig.
With the top nut once the inner platter is removed it is a simple job to access the nut as it clearly protrudes from the the top plate.

However as you say to access the base nut the deck needs to be in the jig and in my case the Lingo 4 board has to be removed. Also as there is no bearing cap supplied you need to be careful that no dust etc gets in the bearing and ensure the deck is not tilted or tipped
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Re: Karousel

Post by Moomintroll »

Bearing caps weren’t supplied with the early Karousels as they weren’t available at the time. The latest models are being supplied with black caps that fit the nut - I now have one of these. I’m also told that there is also a plug, but have yet to see one of these. If you didn’t get a cap with yours, I would contact your dealer to get one.

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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Mikeg wrote: 2020-09-02 07:13 With the top nut once the inner platter is removed it is a simple job to access the nut as it clearly protrudes from the the top plate.

However as you say to access the base nut the deck needs to be in the jig and in my case the Lingo 4 board has to be removed. Also as there is no bearing cap supplied you need to be careful that no dust etc gets in the bearing and ensure the deck is not tilted or tipped
All clear now, thanks!

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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Yes, I just saw one of the new caps that fit the nut. The older ones do have a plug which is in the bag with the grommets, etc. There was nothing in the instructions explaining what it was and it looked like something left over from making a grommet so I threw several away. Then I received a new Majik LP12 which had the plug in the Karousel since it was already installed to the sub-chassis. I'm not honestly thrilled with sticking that rubber plug in the bearing housing as it fits in the liner and it seems to me could push contaminants into it. So good to see the new cap.
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