Karousel

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

PaulC wrote: 2020-08-09 07:47 Charlie1, I understand your point of view regarding the importance of the bearing as compared to what the deck is sitting on, but my experience of using Lack tables is that they can be a source of significant inconsistency in terms of playback AQ, and most importantly, an inconsistency that can result in, on any given day, a complete loss in a cohesive, rhythmically beguiling sound. This is why I ask if you have the opportunity to make the comparison using a Harmonihyllan. If I understand your last post correctly though you don't use Trampolin, which I understand is not needed when using Lack, but which is needed when using HH. At the end of the day, because of the high possible number of confounding variables, maybe it's not actually possible to make a 'scientific' comparison. Maybe what's required is a leap of faith. For better or for worse my new deck (which hasn't arrived yet) comes with the Karousel, so there's not a lot I can do about it anyway...
Yes, I'm comparing decks as a whole and the Radikal one is a lot more expensive. I'll post clips against the Valhalla deck next time. It's certainly not ideal but the influence of the Karousel is so marked that I'm happy to draw some conclusions. I'm not unhappy with the Majik deck now, although I certainly was in the beginning, so there's no pressure or problem here. Just seeing where the road takes me really. It's not lost on me that I'm very lucky to own three LP12s. Another factor to add to yours is that my vintage system was voiced using a pre-Cirkus bearing.

I hope you enjoy your new deck. The vast majority of folks are enjoying the Karousel so it makes sense to leave it in and see how you get on.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2020-08-09 12:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karousel

Post by PaulC »

beck, Charlie1, thanks. I am very much looking forward to getting my new system, so everything is good. The biggest issue for me is in fact getting the network setup right (nas, switch etc.) for the Exakt system. I will have only 1 LP12 so no possibility to compare decks or come to any conclusion in relation to the Karousel itself. And that's fine. If the system is musical and emotionally engaging then that is enough for me. Nonetheless, the insights and controversies that this forum brings to the whole mix, as well as its dedication to musicality, I find valuable. You all teach me a great deal with your discussions, open mindedness and dedicated research 👍
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Re: Karousel

Post by Whatsmynaim »

About the difference between Karousel and the other bearings.
What if artists could listen to their own LP on these systems and tell us,
"This one's jammin' better than we did in the studio! However the other one is more correct."
Did Linn get closer to the real timing and swing of the music or not?
It's just an idea but it won't matter much in the long term since we should go for the gear we enjoy the most.

PaulC can be onto something with tables and the placing of a Karousel fitted LP12. It's different enough that it could need a new setup.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Are you by any chance working in the industry Whatsmynaim?

I ask because this is the second time I get that feeling from reading your posts.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Whatsmynaim »

Not at all, just been a consumer of Linn and similar good stuff since the 80s.
Even if I don't own a LP12 anymore I'm still very much interested in where its headed.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

Fast approaching 200 hours and it's a lot closer to what I'm used to now but with much more clarity. Still doesn't boogie as well as the pre-Cirkus but it has it's own musical strengths. Starting to think I might keep it now although maybe in the Radikal deck since I would still like this one converted to '91 spec.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-09 17:31 ....... Starting to think I might keep it now although maybe in the Radikal deck since I would still like this one converted to '91 spec.
Aha, a plan is starting to take shape. Three Sondeks from three different periods!? :-)
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Whatsmynaim wrote: 2020-08-09 16:34What if artists could listen to their own LP on these systems and tell us,
"This one's jammin' better than we did in the studio! However the other one is more correct."
I have listened to vinyl with artists, studio engineers and producers. They've had lots of opinions on the reproduction, but never once have they said that.

In theory, I consider it impossible (to jam better than in the studio). But also in practice, I have never experienced that any part of the reproduction chain can do anything but degrade the signal - preferably as little as possible.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Whatsmynaim »

You are right. That was not one of my best ideas or theories I ever had.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Whatsmynaim wrote: 2020-08-09 20:18 You are right. That was not one of my best ideas or theories I ever had.
Ha ha!

But seriously, I think the illusion of improvement is pretty common. Music can be made to sound more dynamic, more detailed or more powerful. But when listening carefully, one will usually discover the patterns of this "improvement". And once the patterns are recognized, they can no longer be perceived as an improvement, only as a distortion.

I may be speaking only for myself, but I've experienced this many times.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-09 20:56
But seriously, I think the illusion of improvement is pretty common. Music can be made to sound more dynamic, more detailed or more powerful. But when listening carefully, one will usually discover the patterns of this "improvement". And once the patterns are recognized, they can no longer be perceived as an improvement, only as a distortion.
Your point Fredrik is not wasted on me. I am not as experienced in these matters but recognise that most improvements in the hifi world are more like side stepping or worse.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

I said I'd do clips vs the Valhalla deck for a forum friend so might as well share here. I will do a final batch at 300 hours which is about 2 weeks continuous running so should be enough :)

These are 200+ hours and include a mid-70s all-analogue track, a late 80s digitally mixed album and a release from last year (presumably digitally recorded and mixed).

Majik LP12
1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kixj5by22np1n ... 4.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/77agy2zt96by6 ... 5.MOV?dl=0
3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5b816v31nxldr ... 6.MOV?dl=0

Valhalla/Ittok/K9
1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/q7uy6j1rp5hbj ... 7.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5yfyk83j68sco ... 8.MOV?dl=0
3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwqbhxv8e7546 ... 9.MOV?dl=0
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Only listening to the first track I love how the Valhalla deck fill in the blanks. To me the Majik is more like my cd player trying to catch up with my Sondek (cirkus).

With the Valhalla deck you get more life and human communication.


I have now listened to all three and can only say that my heart belongs to the Valhalla/Ittok/K9 deck.
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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

Hi Charlie1,
How many hours have Adikt?
Maybe need some more, usually it is about 50-100 hours.

However very good development of Majik.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-08-10 12:52 How many hours have Adikt?
Not been monitoring it but I'd guess about 40 hours.
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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-10 13:33
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-08-10 12:52 How many hours have Adikt?
Not been monitoring it but I'd guess about 40 hours.
Need more for sure ...
Other "mechanics" are OK with continuous running (and you will have 300+ for new Clips), but cartridge ...
To be on a safe ground make new clips (or compare both TT for you) on 100+ hours of Adikt.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

Karousel is in Val's tailwind.
At the moment I am preferring the Karousel , seems to have a better groove about it , all be it a very laid back one
I know that tune
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

I can understand what you are getting at Leo.

I can also hear that the Majik compared to the Valhalla deck still after 200 hours is slightly splitting the timing.

How?

When the timing among the musicians are slightly split it influences the intervals (distance from high note to a lower note). Just an observation I have made several times in the past.

The Majik decks intervals sounds slightly squeezed compared to the Valhalla decks more open sounding intervals.

I know this is not easy for non musicians to hear but I do hear it in the clips. One can try to sing the starting notes of the two first clips and compare.

I think the opening piano in the top clip reveals this rather well.
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Re: Karousel

Post by u252agz »

I’m no musician - I just hear the timing issues of the Majik deck as not as musical or as engaging as the Valhalla.

I am hearing this issue on most ( if not all ) of the Karousel clips posted to date on the Forum.
Last edited by u252agz on 2020-08-11 08:42, edited 1 time in total.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2020-08-10 20:59 I can understand what you are getting at Leo.

I can also hear that the Majik compared to the Valhalla deck still after 200 hours is slightly splitting the timing.

How?

When the timing among the musicians are slightly split it influences the intervals (distance from high note to a lower note). Just an observation I have made several times in the past.

The Majik decks intervals sounds slightly squeezed compared to the Valhalla decks more open sounding intervals.

I know this is not easy for non musicians to hear but I do hear it in the clips. One can try to sing the starting notes of the two first clips and compare.

I think the opening piano in the top clip reveals this rather well.
If we’re talking about the same thing, I’m with you 100% on this beck. What you’re describing is the effect of inharmonicity on what we hear. The fundamental and harmonics/partials get pushed out of whack, producing either an apparent mis-tune, altered timbre or something which sounds just plain “wrong”, “odd”, “strange” etc (this isn’t my idea, it’s backed up by possibly thousands of research articles going back over 100 years). To me, the Karousel is still messing the music up, and as you say, it’s quite apparent on the first few notes.

Also, to comment on what beck’s saying about musicians having an unfair advantage over us non-musicians. Sadly, it’s true! I just happened to be reading today about how musicians can generally distinguish smaller steps (between partials, even when the frequencies of both partials lie within the range of just one frequency detector in the cochlear) than non-musicians. That’s not to say that the skill can’t be learned though, particularly by just listening to lots of live acoustic music. It’s thought that our brains somehow map and store what a harmonious note should sound like and compare the memory to what we’re hearing (The actual mechanism is still not fully understood).

I hope I’m not rambling, but just one more related thing! I was also reading that the more notes which are presented out of whack, the greater is the measurable physiological stress experienced by the listener. So it’s true. Listening to poor HiFi systems is hard work, resulting in that well known phenomena, “listener fatigue”.
Last edited by Spannko on 2020-08-11 11:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

We are talking about the same thing Spannko.

Your post is very interesting and it is good to be reminded about some of the connections to the real world we can discover while listening to music through our hifi systems.

I am not here to pick out a winner. No turntable is perfect. I am here to understand why I prefer one turntable to another. That is what we all should be trying to do and it is only natural that we can end up with different answers.

Awareness is the key word.

Find out what makes us use our music collection the most and get joy out of listening.



The new interest that a change of sound character can bring is not to be underrated........
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Re: Karousel

Post by donuk »

Not to digress too much, but just a word about musicians. I have worked with many better musicians than myself over the years, and most have terrible hifi systems.
This seems to be because some musicians listen to music in terms of simply what it represents. They listen to much of what is going on rather superficially perhaps. For their task they listen efficiently.

For example listen to the final chord of She loves you, by the Beatles. An accomplished musician may simply hear that as the major tonic chord with a sixth on top. They may not need to synthesise the notes each time to understand them. I hope I am making some sense. It's a bit like saying some readers read every letter of text, others just read words by their shape on the page to understand them. The latter group make poor proof readers!

That is why different people hear different things when listening. It depends how much work the listener wants or is able to do.

There is of course no right or wrong way to listen to music. I find myself, at times just listening to, and enjoying a chord progression creating a chart in my head. I doubt that on these occasions I have much regard to the quality of my system as long as it is good enough to tell me what is going on. Which I suppose is why I am fussy about bass reproduction. I do like to be able to tell the pitch of a bass note, not just the noise it makes. On some recordings this is difficult.

Sorry to ramble

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Re: Karousel

Post by Whatsmynaim »

I agree. I know a few musicians and they seem to be able to fill in the blanks and can enjoy
music on rather mediocre systems.
Understandably nothing can replace the kicks they get from playing music live anyway so there's reasons
they don't care about good hifi or spending lots of money on it.

Edit: added a few words.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-10 10:34 I said I'd do clips vs the Valhalla deck for a forum friend so might as well share here. I will do a final batch at 300 hours which is about 2 weeks continuous running so should be enough :)

These are 200+ hours and include a mid-70s all-analogue track, a late 80s digitally mixed album and a release from last year (presumably digitally recorded and mixed).

Majik LP12
1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kixj5by22np1n ... 4.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/77agy2zt96by6 ... 5.MOV?dl=0
3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5b816v31nxldr ... 6.MOV?dl=0

Valhalla/Ittok/K9
1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/q7uy6j1rp5hbj ... 7.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5yfyk83j68sco ... 8.MOV?dl=0
3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwqbhxv8e7546 ... 9.MOV?dl=0
Thank you for these really interesting clips, Charlie! I have now listened to all of them on two different occasions a few days apart and these are my notes:

1. The Majik LP12 appears more dynamic - there's a greater difference between strong and weak sounds. Judging only the sound, I could be tempted to say that it sounds better. Or at least more impressive. However, the drummer and the bassist are much better in synch on the Valhalla/Ittok/K9. There's a more melodic message in the bass and a sense of moving the track along, together. More musical and more enjoyable to my ears.

2. This reminds me of when listening to early CD's and comparing them to vinyl. It's like the sounds are lifted up on the Majik LP12 clip, away from the noise floor, but at the same time they loose their connection to ground. When the key shifts up at 0:22, it's difficult to feel it. On the Valhalla/Ittok/K9, the key shift can be felt, and also when it shifts back down. Clearly more enjoyable and more Dylan to me on the Valhalla/Ittok/K9.

3. My impressions are similar to the above two. Subtleties, fine interplay and groove are all better on the Valhalla/Ittok/K9. Moving my body to the tune is easier and Van's voice comes through more convincing and emotional. Another win for the older LP12.

Looking forward to clips with even more run in time on the new Majik LP12, although I wouldn't bet a lot of money on the scales tipping in favour of it.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Great notes Fredrik. I can only say that I agree with your findings.
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