Karousel

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Øyvind I
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Re: Karousel

Post by Øyvind I »

Tamblers wrote: 2020-07-15 01:06 I picked up my LP12 last Thursday after...

As an aside, I find the cueing lever on my SE/1 has considerable free play. It’s quite loose actually. Not the case on my Ekos 2 but I wonder if it’s intentional to lessen the interaction with the turntables suspension. Not a big deal as I don’t regularly use it. But what are the Ekos SE owners finding with their arms?
Agree to your observations. Regarding the cueing level, my SE/1 has no free play compared to my previous Ekos 2 (but is a bit stiffer).
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

I don't consider the Ekos SE/1 cueing device to be loose. I would actually say it is a bit stiffer than early Ekos cueing devices, as Ovind 1 said. It sounds to me like the set screw on your cueing device was not nipped up properly. It shouldn't be overly tight but should be snug. I have also had the occasional Ekos SE/1 with a loose cueing/anti-skating platform from the factory, including the one I mention below. There are two tiny torx screws (T6 or T7, I don't remember for sure which) on the back part of the platform. If you can move the entire platform up and down a little then these need to be tightened. Like almost every fastener on the LP12 there is a precise torque where this is most musical. It is fairly low so without a torque tool it is best to get them a hair past snug.

As to what difference is due to which upgrade, I feel the Karousel is the bigger part of what you are hearing. One of my customers, who occasionally frequents this forum, bought the same combo as you. But since his Ekos SE/1 was delayed yet we had Karousels in stock, I went ahead and installed a Karousel for him several weeks ago. Then I installed the Ekos SE/1 last Saturday and we put the Karousel that came in with the arm back in stock. So he was able to hear what each of these fine upgrades does on its own. Hopefully he will let us know what he thinks. (No pressure, Nick.)
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

My view of the two changes you made to your LP12 is that the Ekos SE/1 dramatically improves the musicality, while the Karousel makes a big change to the sound character.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-15 23:38 My view of the two changes you made to your LP12 is that the Ekos SE/1 dramatically improves the musicality, while the Karousel makes a big change to the sound character.
What I am reading in your comment is that you are not convinced that Karousel is improving on musicality?
Or is that a wrong assumption of what you meant?

If it doesnt improve musicality in your opinion - is it actually taking away musicality?
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Defender wrote: 2020-07-16 09:26What I am reading in your comment is that you are not convinced that Karousel is improving on musicality?
Correct, I'm not.

Sound is very clear and articulated compared to Cirkus. But there's an element of fragmentation that has never existed in the LP12 before that I find annoying and distracting. It's similar to what I hear when listening to anything Exakted - it's like a million tiny cracks in the windshield.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

In that case I'm ok with the cracks. There's so much more insight into the music with Karousel, that I cannot imagine going back. Still not conviced by Exakt though...
Fredrik, can I ask, if you have tried the Karousel at home for a month or so?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

Re Exakt.

Are you guys referring to Exakt, Space Optimisation, or both?

The reason I ask is because people sometimes think they’re all the same thing.
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Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel »

Tendaberry wrote: 2020-07-16 15:33 There's so much more insight into the music with Karousel, that I cannot imagine going back.
That's pretty much my feeling, too.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-15 23:38 My view of the two changes you made to your LP12 is that the Ekos SE/1 dramatically improves the musicality, while the Karousel makes a big change to the sound character.
My version would be that the Ekos SE/1 substantially improves musicality, and the Karousel improves it even more dramatically, while also adding clarity and articulation.

Some time back I bought "Wee Small Hours" by Frank Sinatra, which I have used on here for some clips. From the moment I purchased that record I fell in love with the title track, and with almost all of the album. However, the second track, "Mood Indigo", seemed a bit trite to me. Once I had the Karousel up and running for a month or so I decided to play the whole album again and suddenly found that Frank was doing a really good job on "Mood Indigo". It didn't sound trite at all but masterfully performed. To me this is pretty much the essence of improved musicality.

I have found with almost all my records that the Karousel gets me more involved in the music, wanting to listen to entire albums rather than just a track or two, getting up and dancing to the music, feeling goosebumps from certain pieces that I didn't before, and appreciating the level of musicianship engraved in the grooves to a greater extent. Certainly you can hear much more information, finer details as to how the instruments are played, harmonies between instruments that you didn't notice before coming through quite clearly, the way a pianist or guitarist plays and phrases things. But, in my experience, that all serves the music and brings more enjoyment to my system.

I have actual cracks in my windshield, but there are no such cracks in my Hi-Fi (the reason I didn't just agree with Tendaberry). I still prefer analog electronics to Exakt (with or without SO) and hear nothing in the Karousel I find reminiscent of those systems. The Karousel was impressive in the beginning, and the early clips did show almost too much separation of sounds (although in room it still sounded really good), but it has grown increasingly more musical over time, with the same degree of additional musical information but better integrated. There is unquestionably a setting in period and most of my customers have commented on how it keeps getting better as it is played more. I don't have anybody who isn't fully impressed by the Karousel, and I've installed over 15 of them, most finding they are playing their LP12 much more and doing little streaming.
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Re: Karousel

Post by nmakowsk »

Hello, as Tom knows I do lurk the forum very often and do occasionally post as well. I had taken advantage of the Ekos SE1/Karousel promotion back in May but had to wait over a month for the order to come together from Linn to build the arm. So like Tom states I had the interesting ability to hear both changes one at a time so I kind of have an idea what each of these has done for my system.

Karousel at first seemed a bit cold and distant from that first time rotating the platter at home. Similar to how my Lejonklou electronics and radikal seem like they need a good 40 minutes of play time to really get in the groove and make things shiny and fun. After that very first playing I decided to let the table spin at 33.3 for a couple of 10 hour days to just let it wear in a bit as I heard that was beneficial. Well since then there has been no doubt that the Karousel is better and retrieving the music out of the groove. My impression was mostly that it seemed like bass guitarists were more in the room and drummer’s kits seemed to make their presence more known coming from the isobariks. There is more detail retrieval and I found myself having a harder time just sitting because I wanted to walk around and move to the music or even watch the record spin. Musicians certainly sound like they are doing a better job as I notice much more about how they play their instruments. This sounds like a solid upgrade to me. About 4 weeks later, Tom installs the new tonearm which finally made it across the pond.

Ekos SE/1 that was installed last Saturday is very interesting so far. My previous arm was rather basic being a Project 9CC which came with my magik LP12 just over ten years ago. There was a certain bass response which was very warm and ample with my arm/speaker combination. Now I know that the bass was actually a little bloated and uncontrolled in hindsight. The Ekos makes my table live a little bit more in the midrange of the speakers but when that bass is present its even more tuneful or powerful than before. At first I was feeling that I needed to maybe move the speakers towards the wall slightly to give me back that bass that I was soo used to but no this presentation is more detailed but also not bass shy. The details I am hearing in the mids and highs are kind of unprecedented actually. Things like synth keyboard notes which might be a bit buried in muddy 80s rock records shine more now. Suzanne Vega’s acapella opening track on Solitude Standing is the closest I have heard to her being in the room singing. I didn’t think the adikt was capable of even more details being a magik level component but it sure is a musical cartridge paired with the best phono stage available. I do believe my brand new akito tonarm cable will continue to wear in and solidify the sound even more too.
Overall, I am quite happy. The Karousel seemed to change the sound character making it feel like instruments were more in the room and present with excitement. So far the Ekos SE/1 is giving me instrument separation and details that were buried before. The adikt now seems to offer some of that fine detail I have heard in a Kandid before.

My impression is that the Karousel is the more fundamental change as it really has me moving around my room dancing and the EKOS SE1 gives me the impression of using a MC cart now at a fraction of the cost. Btw, I have never brought my table back from Overture Audio and not had it sound better. Quite the LP12 guru they have working there.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Whatsmynaim »

I get why the laser focus of Karousel on retrieving everything that's stored on a LP can be distracting to some.
Similar to using a microscope and clearly see it's actually many separate parts that's making up the whole.
Perhaps a future upgrade can build on the strengths of Karousel and make everyone happy.

I haven't listened to the Karousel yet so these are just random thoughts.
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Re: Karousel

Post by imarcel »

update from may first post on the karousel three weeks ago (see below).

i would definitly say there is a "run in" with the karousel. in the last week it has been getting better every day.
when i first installed it i was not able to perfectly tune the sondek. for example i had problems "clocking" the outter platter. now a few weeks later i went to do that again, and it was much easier. as an extra, in the beginning i had forgotten (stupid me) to reset the radikal. i did that later and i also think it made things better.

as it is now, i stay with my first impression: karousel improves the "hifi aspects" in a way i never thought possible. but now i am sure it improves musicality too (maybe not to such a big degree). but what i love is that the analogue "charm" is back.
it now surely does not sound like a digital source anymore.

as for the "fragmentation" discussed before, i am with thomas in this one, i don´t mind as long as i can enjoy my music the way i am doing now.

i am sure in two or three years there will be "noone" claiming cirkus is more musical than karousel. "noone" in the same sense as nowadays "noone" claims pre-cirkus to be better than cirkus.

i am surely not going back.

greetings marcel

___________________________________________
first post from 6.24.2020:

my first impressions after one week with the karousel:

1. the karousel is way (better way way) better than the cirkus in all "hifi" aspects. sharpness, clearness, detail, decay of notes, separation. in this aspects it is like listening to a whole new turntable. the difference is such that if i had heard it blind, i think i would have thought it is a great new digital source (by the way i don´t like digital sources very much).

2. my first impressions were that musicality and tune dem were a bit better with the cirkus. this has been changing in the past few days and i am enjoying it more every day. but i can´t say yet, if it has or will ever be better than a cirkused lp12

.. is it "burn in" or is it me getting used to the brutal clearness, i don´t know.

what was lost is some of the "charm" of analog, but maybe after getting used to the new sound i will eventually find this again. meaning finding and grasping the difference between analog with karousel and good digital playback. does this make sense ?

all in all, imho, karousel is a clear step in the direction of a katalyst klimax ds.

the biggest changes are cleary in the "hifi" aspects. i think for great pleasure and understanding of the music, these are important too.

by the way my favourite upgrade ever was ekos 2 to ekos se. that was just magical.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

“ I would say that you won't know the final performance for a few months. This is based on something Linn service told me years ago. I had a customer who bought a new LP12 and a few weeks in he was having problems. The bearing housing was defective and needed replacement. I was surprised when Linn said they would send out a new bearing housing but made no mention of sending a new inner platter/spindle. Like all good LP12 techs I had been taught that the two mate for life and you always replace them together. So I asked them about it and was informed that the bedding process takes several months and that replacing just one part of the pair on a unit with less than a month use was not a problem. So from that I would say that the polishing of the thrust plate by the tip apparently will take a few months before it settles completely and then remains essentially the same for decades. I can say from experience that 30 and 40 year old Linn bearings almost always have only a tiny polish mark on the thrust plate when cleaned and examined. Only ones that are damaged by accident and mishandling, or were defective, have an actual pit on them and a resulting ring of wear on the tip. I was told many years back that the thrust plate and spindle are both heat hardened but that there is a 3° Kelvin difference in the hardening which offers the optimum wear profile. The tip will further polish the thrust plate over time and it seems that time is likely measured in months. So I suppose to do a truly correct comparison to a few year old Cirkus might require a few year old Karousel. I think it is only because of the newness of the Karousel, our expanded use of clips (which I think are very useful) and possibly some misgivings some of us have that these things are being examined so closely.”


The above is taken from an earlier answer given by ThomasOK.

So, I will for now be glad that so many think the Karousel is a great improvement and hopefully time will tell how the Karousel settles when reaching half a year or more of regular use.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Emil »

The two bearings differ in some areas. One of the biggest differences is decay. A good experience with a number of the best concert halls and high-end systems for a designer helps a lot. There one can spot many aspects of the sound, in this case reverberations and decay.
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Emil wrote: 2020-07-17 11:11 The two bearings differ in some areas. One of the biggest differences is decay. A good experience with a number of the best concert halls and high-end systems for a designer helps a lot. There one can spot many aspects of the sound, in this case reverberations and decay.
I would agree with that. The decay not just of concert halls but of individual notes is clearer and longer. This gives the instruments a more real sound, enhancing the quality of playing, as a few have mentioned.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Emil »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-07-17 16:39
Emil wrote: 2020-07-17 11:11 The two bearings differ in some areas. One of the biggest differences is decay. A good experience with a number of the best concert halls and high-end systems for a designer helps a lot. There one can spot many aspects of the sound, in this case reverberations and decay.
I would agree with that. The decay not just of concert halls but of individual notes is clearer and longer. This gives the instruments a more real sound, enhancing the quality of playing, as a few have mentioned.
;)
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Tendaberry wrote: 2020-07-16 15:33 In that case I'm ok with the cracks. There's so much more insight into the music with Karousel, that I cannot imagine going back. Still not conviced by Exakt though...
Fredrik, can I ask, if you have tried the Karousel at home for a month or so?
I haven't yet experienced any new musical insights with Karousel. But my listening experience is counted in hours, not weeks or months. Does it really take that long for it to break in or appreciate it?

Initially, it seemed most were convinced from day one after installation. Then, after some debate, there was talk about running in needed. I have changed Cirkus bearings many times and always felt they sounded good from the first minute. Same spindle and thrust plate as in Karousel, so what suddenly takes so long to break in? Is the lining tighter fitting around the spindle and that's where the running in is required? I don't detect any difference in tightness when inserting the spindle, but it could of course be a subtle change that still has a major impact.

So far I have only heard one clip that I felt was more musical with Karousel, all the others have been more convincing with Cirkus - some of them by quite a margin. Interestingly, those who think the Karousel is better in real life seem to also prefer the Karousel clips.

Trust me, I really wanted to enjoy this new bearing. So I'd love to find out that I'm wrong on this and install one in my LP12. But so far, to my ears, it leaves a lot to be desired. I have another one to install in late August/early September, an LP12 that I have recently fine tuned and can have a good listen to before and after. That'll be interesting.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

Have you tried listening with different amplifiers Fredrik 😁
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote: 2020-07-17 23:05 Have you tried listening with different amplifiers Fredrik 😁
No. What are your thoughts on this, Lego? What amplifier do you think is needed?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-17 23:42
Lego wrote: 2020-07-17 23:05 Have you tried listening with different amplifiers Fredrik 😁
No. What are your thoughts on this, Lego? What amplifier do you think is needed?
I have only heard clips and I always thought Karousel sounded worse rather than not much in it.I must admit I've never been charmed in demos by any Lp12 upgrades since the Tramp2.

Since the 80s,I've always had this kind of weird belief system that if you swayed from linn products either in Lp12 upgrades or amps etc ,any future upgrades would eventually come and bite you in the bum,and you'd end up having to follow different path .
The aro being the first example. Those guys were never seen again .

Obviously sheer speculation 😂
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Re: Karousel

Post by Øyvind I »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-17 22:04 Initially, it seemed most were convinced from day one after installation. Then, after some debate, there was talk about running in needed. I have changed Cirkus bearings many times and always felt they sounded good from the first minute. Same spindle and thrust plate as in Karousel, so what suddenly takes so long to break in? Is the lining tighter fitting around the spindle and that's where the running in is required? I don't detect any difference in tightness when inserting the spindle, but it could of course be a subtle change that still has a major impact.
I found it way better from the first second. Have it on my main deck (Klimax but ARadikal) and on a new Majik deck. Still have Cirkus on another deck (Majik sub, Ittok LV-II, Adikt, recapped Lingo 1).
It was clearly better and adds more musical insight as one new can hear instruments plays that was not audible before, likewise that the way instruments are played appear different. The drummer hits the drum harder, but at the same time more of the frequency of the drum is audible.
It may be this latter parts which may trick (my speculation) some folks to believe it needs to break in as it more has to do with getting accustomed to the different "sound". Perhaps why some also prefer pre-cirkus bearing?
I still enjoy the deck with Cirkus but will at a time swap as it's evident that lots of info is not there but first need to change the PSU on the Majik deck.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote: 2020-07-18 09:15 I have only heard clips and I always thought Karousel sounded worse rather than not much in it.I must admit I've never been charmed in demos by any Lp12 upgrades since the Tramp2.

Since the 80s,I've always had this kind of weird belief system that if you swayed from linn products either in Lp12 upgrades or amps etc ,any future upgrades would eventually come and bite you in the bum,and you'd end up having to follow different path .
The aro being the first example. Those guys were never seen again .

Obviously sheer speculation 😂
I see. The optimized combination theory.

I do agree there are certain combinations that are more in harmony than others and that Linn in the 70's and 80's were really skilled in their system design. I think the number one reason why they were so successful in this was that they listened very, very, very carefully to everything. And they knew what they were listening for. There was no room for the sloppy attitude I regularly come across today in the audio industry.

However, I have always felt that a good product is a good product, period. And if you follow the hierarchy, you'll end up with a good system.

BTW, I heard the Aro in London just after it was released and didn't get the hype at all. It sounded impressive but made less sense of the music than an Ittok. So no wonder those who preferred it were never seen again (in the Linn community). The reason wasn't that they swayed from the all-Linn path, but that they apparently had a preference for less tuneful products!
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Just a little clarification. I enjoyed the Karousel from the moment I installed it. I did hear the effect of almost too much clarity, a less blended sound if you will, that seems like what bothered people abut the first clips. But I still felt in my room and system that music was more enjoyable and more engaging than it had previously been. The first clips I made, however, were from after about a week of burn in. So far the vast majority of those posting seem to feel the same way, although there has been an exception or two, but then one of them has found with burn in that their opinion has changed to definitely preferring the Karousel musically too.

There seems to be no question among the owners that the musicality improves over time, not only those who have posted here, but also among my customers. What is wearing in and why it is making this difference I am not sure (although it does feel a little different to me when I slip the inner platter into the bearing housing, even though spinning the housing on the spindle without oil shows it has very low friction) but even the later clips indicated the improvement in that direction to many, if not most, here. So it is hard to think it is just acclimatization, although it does reveal so much more low level information that it can't be ruled out as a factor. This certainly not an unprecedented thing with Hi-Fi gear, and while I tend to believe that if it is not good to start it rarely gets wonderful with age, there are certainly cases where appreciation grows with burnin/familiarity.

I have a very good example with a reviewer who will soon be coming our with a review of the Boazu. I sent him a brand new unit and when he first hooked it up he thought it was nice but didn't get why Fredrik would labor that hard on a "cute little decent sounding" integrated. A few days later the reaction was WHOA! and I have been told that in over 30 years of being into Hi-Fi he has never had a system as musical as the one with the Boazu in it. This is a guy who has traditionally been into tubes! How much is burnin and how much is getting used to what Lejonklou gear offers I don't know, but obviously a significant change in appreciation over the span of a couple of weeks.

So whatever is going on with the burnin, so far it seems like almost everyone who has had a Karouslel installed on their LP12 loves it. There is certainly far, far less of the "the old bearing is better" than there was with the Cirkus even years after its introduction. Will it eventually win over everybody? Who knows. But I'm certainly very glad I have one.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

In many ways I find the Karousel discussion to be the discussion of interest right now.

In moments of doubt I find that taking a step back is often useful.

I think of the evolution of the Sondek bearing as holding a woolly sock between my hands.

I start with the sock stretched out just so that I can see the full shape of it. It looks nice and woolly. Then I start to stretch it further slowly until the point where all sense of woollyness is gone and you can see the threads one by one and look right through it.

Where on this imaginary “scale” the Karousel is and if it makes more or less musical sense than the other bearings is I think to some extent personal depending on what you value when listening.

In the end we have to decide for ourselves.

I think the sum of information is constant like the sock. It is our view that changes.
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Re: Karousel

Post by u252agz »

I have listened to Karousel and Cirkus’d Majik and Akkurate decks in demos at two Linn dealers , with multiple AAB comparisons .

I was amazed at how impressive the sound was with Karousel but preferred the flow and timing of the Cirkus decks, which made my feet tap.

With the clips, it is difficult to appreciate just how good the sound is with the Karousel in real life, but I I did find the Cirkus clips much more musical.

As Beck says all of us will make our own decision but it is not easy to do AAB comparisons at dealers anymore as Karousel is now the only choice for new turntables.
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