Karousel

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

alan wrote: 2020-04-19 10:51 Isn’t it easy to get a good opinion, apart from the video intermediary? As we know, a listening system is limited to the weakest part; likely that the richness of the Karousel reveals in a more incisive way the limits and defects of the technology clips? The future listening life-size with Karousel, electronic and speakers, will specify it.
I am sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say, Alan. But I do need to object to this part:
"As we know, a listening system is limited to the weakest part". This is false. The links in the chain are not the same and have different weaknesses.

The hierarchy is true. It says: The closer to the source, the bigger the musical impact.

In other words, a weak link at the source has a huge impact, while a weak link far away from the source (such as loudspeakers) has much less impact.

This is the reason why the in-room clips work at all.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-03 20:29
Hermann wrote: 2020-04-03 15:39 By Melanie De Biasio, Album Lilies, Your Freedom Is the End of Me (short)

On transparent vinyl and sounds like it

Cirkus
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16nYfZ5 ... sp=sharing

Karousel
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WI-_Z_ ... sp=sharing

Enjoy
Wow! So much better!

It appears that the volume is raised a step or two, but I assume that's not the case? If it's the same, a radical drop of the noise floor must be what's giving me this impression.

Congratulations Linn! I take my hat off and bow.
I listened again to these two clips from Hermann and I still think the Karousel is much better. Both more impressive soundwise and more musical.

I haven't listened to your other clips, Hermanm, but now I think I have to.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

thank you Hermann,
yes it is impressive - details in spades (lots) - your system also makes the differences in musicality more tangible for the Karousel. Your system also sounds real „airy“ ... not sure if its because of the different recording method you use or because you are so far away from the loudspeakers.

I need to compare out of my memory and with a 16bit copy I have as I dont have the LP but I remember there are really heavy bass lines in those songs which I dont hear as much in your system.



... but it still leaves me confused about the clips from Thomas
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Re: Karousel

Post by alan »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-19 12:07
alan wrote: 2020-04-19 10:51 Isn’t it easy to get a good opinion, apart from the video intermediary? As we know, a listening system is limited to the weakest part; likely that the richness of the Karousel reveals in a more incisive way the limits and defects of the technology clips? The future listening life-size with Karousel, electronic and speakers, will specify it.
I am sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say, Alan. But I do need to object to this part:
"As we know, a listening system is limited to the weakest part". This is false. The links in the chain are not the same and have different weaknesses.

The hierarchy is true. It says: The closer to the source, the bigger the musical impact.

In other words, a weak link at the source has a huge impact, while a weak link far away from the source (such as loudspeakers) has much less impact.

This is the reason why the in-room clips work at all.
In summary, I think the only way to properly evaluate a Karousel is with the listening system. Source, amplification, speakers. That’s just my opinion.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Catweazle »

alan wrote: 2020-04-19 13:38 In summary, I think the only way to properly evaluate a Karousel is with the listening system. Source, amplification, speakers. That’s just my opinion.
Same here!
I'd appreciate to compare some Songcorder recordings (24/192 off a DSM Songcast) of Circus vs Karousel. This cancels a lot of unknowns (like amp, speakers, room, microphone, ADC), and brings in the known system downstream. Thus, it is probably a much better approximation of the original upgrade effect.

On the other hand: If the effect is as huuuuuuge, as reported before by trustworthy people ... <puzzled>
Last edited by Catweazle on 2020-04-19 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

Listen to Fredrik and decide. I am still of the opinion that the clips do not show the true potential of Karousel.

Well Defender, the room is pretty reverberant. Therefore the recording appears accordingly. The distance is 4.5m from system. I could try another recording much closer.

Exactly, the bass is well audible, but there is not enough pressure and that appears as "too little bass". But I work on that issue and build some briksmover on wheels in order to push them easyer ...
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Re: Karousel

Post by RGraham »

I'm very late in this discussion and signed up primarily to make a few comments. I've been out of Hi-Fi for 25 years while raising a family and am just now getting back into things. I had taken my LP12 in for evaluation and recommended upgrade path just before Karousel was announced. I knew I wanted Lingo 4 to replace my Lingo 1 and felt Kore would also be a logical next step. Then COVID-19 happened and things went South in a hurry on my plans. In any case, I have had the opportunity to listen to several postings of the Cirkus/Karousel comparision. Must say that the vast majority of the music is unfamiliar to me so I have no preconceived ideas concerning how a particular recording/performance "should" sound like; I can only comment on what I hear. I can say that I'm no longer on the fence concerning Karousel. In my humble opinion (and to my 63 year old ears), Karousel is a very marked improvement.

Thomas's posts of before/after recordings are much appreciated. Frank Sinatra is "more forward" but is much more lifelike with better articulation and intimacy. The band is reproduced with more presence but further back. The Cirkus recording is OK and I could live with it but Karousel is just that much better. The King Crimson recording of 21st Century Schizoid was much easier to hear individual instruments in a rather dense wall of sound. The buzz, the feel of the drums, voice articulation all were clearer and more engaging. Everything was simply more lifelike. In fact, the Cirkus recording had a fairly flat and kind sound to it (if King Crimson could be found to be "kind"). The 4th recording was the most revealing of all. The piano was simply astonishingly clearer and better on the Karousel. While listening to the Cirkus recording I simply caught myself looking over at the piano sitting just a few feet away from me and wondering how the two could sound so completely different (of course comparing my wee upright to a concert grand may not be proper). The Karousel recording is transformative in my mind and better controlled leading edges of notes and removed an almost CD-like brittleness.

In any case, these are my humble observations and I, for one, anxiously look forward to hearing the Karousel in person.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

matthias wrote: 2020-03-07 08:54
John wrote: 2020-03-06 20:22 Wonder how the bearing will affect the hierarchy when considering upgrading.
I am sure Karousel in a Majik sub chassis will outperform Cirkus in a Keel.

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What makes you so sure Matthias!?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

El Mero Mero wrote: 2020-03-25 14:03
TMV wrote: 2020-03-25 09:29 My local Linn dealer wrote this at tonlaget.com.
Klimax LP12 is boring VS Akurate with Karousel.
I hate this kind of statements. Klimax LP12 has never been boring!

I would much prefer them saying "Taking the LP12 to a whole new level." or something like this.
Don't worry EMM it's only sales pitch, which works really well,it always worked for me :0)
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Re: Karousel

Post by matthias »

Lego wrote: 2020-04-19 16:12
matthias wrote: 2020-03-07 08:54
John wrote: 2020-03-06 20:22 Wonder how the bearing will affect the hierarchy when considering upgrading.
I am sure Karousel in a Majik sub chassis will outperform Cirkus in a Keel.
What makes you so sure Matthias!?
The turntable hierarchy and the prereq that performance of Karousel is superior to Cirkus.
The bearing takes the first rank in the hierarchy and is most important.
The rank of the sub chassis is at least two steps lower.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

matthias wrote: 2020-04-19 17:07
Lego wrote: 2020-04-19 16:12
matthias wrote: 2020-03-07 08:54
I am sure Karousel in a Majik sub chassis will outperform Cirkus in a Keel.
What makes you so sure Matthias!?
The turntable hierarchy and the prereq that performance of Karousel is superior to Cirkus.
The bearing takes the first rank in the hierarchy and is most important.
The rank of the sub chassis is at least two steps lower.

Matt
Fair enough :0)
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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

Perfection ...

Thank you Hermann
Music First ...
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Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel »

Hermann wrote: 2020-04-19 09:21 In any case I thank Defender for the hint.
Me too! A very useful improvement...
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Re: Karousel

Post by u252agz »

Hermann wrote: 2020-04-03 11:50 It took some time, but here are two examples. Hope the links work. The piece is Anne Dudley plays art of noise in full length.


Circus
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gaD2RT ... sp=sharing

Karousel
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KS5Xhz ... sp=sharing

Finally managed to play the two clips.

The Karousel clip sounds much better here - musically better and sound wise better.

I remain confused, as this is consistent with the reports from WYSAH but to my ears not consistent with the clips I hear from Hidden Systems or ThomasOK.

I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the designers at Linn and those of us who prefer Karousel on the above two sets of clips.
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Re: Karousel

Post by matthias »

u252agz wrote: 2020-04-20 11:29
Hermann wrote: 2020-04-03 11:50 It took some time, but here are two examples. Hope the links work. The piece is Anne Dudley plays art of noise in full length.
Circus
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gaD2RT ... sp=sharing
Karousel
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KS5Xhz ... sp=sharing
Finally managed to play the two clips.
The Karousel clip sounds much better here - musically better and sound wise better.
I remain confused, as this is consistent with the reports from WYSAH but to my ears not consistent with the clips I hear from Hidden Systems or ThomasOK.
I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the designers at Linn and those of us who prefer Karousel on the above two sets of clips.
+1
BTW, this Anne Dudley piece sounds very good on Qobuz as well.

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Re: Karousel

Post by nmakowsk »

Defender wrote: 2020-04-17 16:08 Hermann and Thomas - did you reset your Radikal after fitting the Karousel?
The Radikal seems to have a learning procedure and it might be better to reset it as the learning was done with the Cirkus and the friction behavior of the Karousel should be different.
It can do no harm and might give a better musical quality.
Can somebody provide a guide of how to do this properly? Another forum mentions this reset as well and I am doubtful I have performed it properly. Also not sure which setting the clicker should be in on the back of the radikal. I don't really hear much difference in either setting.

When I listened to Tom's clips of Circus vs. Karousel I can hear more musical details being brought out by the Karousel. The King Crimson song to me is the best example as like Tom states "more presssure on the calliope" The mix is a bit murky but thats because there are so many interesting elements happening. Or there are times when there are not many elements such as in Moonchild. 21st Century Schizoid man is of the former and some amazing prog rock. Karousel let me hear the mix with more depth and the drums were easier to follow along with. Surprised that Tom hasn't posted that image of "In the Court of the Crimson King" with the surgical mask on looking rather intense. Its an interesting image and should be available somewhere on the burning shed website to see.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

I did the reset that way:

Power Off
Power On
Press function select button on back of Radikal several times until both LEDs on start/speed switch light up
Power Off
Power On

I didt it several times but this time I had to switch off/on again because the player didnt reached the correct speed. Dont know what happend but afterwards was it ok.
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Re: Karousel

Post by nmakowsk »

Thanks Hermann, these are the exact instructions that I saw on the other forum. Unfortunately for me, I don't know what the function selector is on the back of the radikal. All I see is a power switch and that push in/out button which I don't know the function of. Is that little push in/out the function select because I have never pushed it while radikal is powered on.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

Well that little button is the one you should use.
radikal-2.png
radikal-4.png

Artistically certainly not valuable, but the red circles surround the button.
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Re: Karousel

Post by El Mero Mero »

I picked up new LP12 at my favourite Linn dealer High Fidelity in Stockholm yesterday. We did a short comparison of two Akurate spec LP12s. One with Circus and one with Karousel. I had brought a "Non Hifi" record with me "MC5 - Back In the USA". The Karousel is clearly better. Musik makes more sense. But don't take my word for it. Listen for yourself! I am more than happy with my new LP12. Thanks Kalle!
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

El Mero Mero wrote: 2020-04-26 09:24 [...] "MC5 - Back In the USA". [...]
Great stuff Kalle, but also "Kick Out The Jams" by the way

enjoy your new baby
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Re: Karousel

Post by Ianw »

The published function of the button on the back of the unit enables an option to mute the output of the Urika to avoid loud pops to speakers when placing or removing the stylus from the record.

It’s called “Radikal mode”. When selected (via the back button); you give the LP12 on/off switch a single quick press, the button then flashes indicating the Urika output is muted. You can then place the record on the deck, cue up and lower the stylus, give the button a quick press which unmutes the Urika. Reverse the procedure when lifting the stylus off the record.

Hope that makes sense.

Lingos 1 to 4 don’t have this function.
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Re: Karousel

Post by El Mero Mero »

Hermann wrote: 2020-04-26 13:36
El Mero Mero wrote: 2020-04-26 09:24 [...] "MC5 - Back In the USA". [...]
"Kick Out The Jams"
That is a classic!
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

Daveyf wrote: 2020-04-27 23:33 I am curious if anyone knows this...
Since I am not in the UK, and my nearest Linn dealer is several hundred miles away, I have always bought my upgrades from one of two sources...a) a Linn dealer in NY or b) a Linn dealer in San Francisco
Neither of these dealers are able to mount the upgrades for me. Is there an option from the Linn dealer to sell me the Karousel at a lower price to discount for the fact that they are NOT fitting the piece?..and I have to pay my local tech to do this work.
I don't really understand your question. Everything is a negotiation. I've never paid regular prices on Linn or Naim equipment. Same with Karousel. By the way, it doesn't matter if I installed it myself or if my dealer (2,5 hours distance to me) would have done it.

It's a pity that you obviously can't install the Karousel yourself. I hope you know a talented technician who does it correctly.

However, I do not know to what extent discount discussions should help you. It is most likely too different from country to country and dealer to dealer and depends mainly on your own negotiating skills. But perhaps this is regulated differently in other countries.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

hi Dave I think Thomas answered this question which someone else asked already in this discussion. Conclusion is: usually the upgrade prices are including installation if that is not done by the dealer there should be a fair compensation of the labour which he doesnt have to do - that is my take.
So I think its fair to negotiate.
But its also fair to be generous if the dealer does all the work and you end up with a nice set up system.
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