Karousel

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

mmh our clips worked very well for everything which I thought would have much less effect than such a source related change - so I dont think the Karousel should be an exception.

When I heard Hermann‘s clips I had the faint impression that this upgrade might be more on the hifi side than on the musicality side ... which is anyhow still impressive.

However - if Thomas wouldnt have disclosed which is which would we have chosen the Karousel clips as the better ones?
I hope there is something else the course ... although very unlikely that Thomas has overseen something - maybe a torque has drifted or a reading error on the torque driver.
Does the second LP12 gives the same results?

confused

as I understand the DLC one was not a flat but more a convex surface so it should not give a reflection.
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

Hi Thomas,

First off all Happy Birthday and all the best ... I know it's little late, but you know ...
Keep safe yourself and all around you, it's hard time for all of us ...

Thank you very much for your clips, your hard work and wish to share with us all this beautiful music ...

For me After / Karousel is better on all 4 clips. On some clips it's easier to see it, on some harder ... but it's better ... Music as well is good ... different genres ... some it's more close to me, some not, but any way, even on not so familiar music for me, After / Karousel is better ... on mainly both levels ... HiFi and especially better on "Musicality / Tune" level ...
For me After is especially is good on classical music it's fantastic ...

In one word ... I hope, I will have it (as your system ...) in my living room one day ... :-)
Music First ...
Vlado
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

OK, apparently I made a mistake. I tried to keep everything the same but before I put the LP12 back in place I cleaned off all the audiophile dust on the NOKTable and the Harmoni racks. So apparently I changed things without thinking about it. :-)

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I have listened to these clips on my iPhone speakers before putting them on Dropbox, I listened to them once on Dropbox from the links I posted through the wired EarPods, and I listened to them through the links posted on my PowerMac connected to Meridian active M3 speakers. In all cases I hear the improvements I hear in my room, although certainly not to the same degree. Reading the above comments I agree thoroughly with David Neel and Tendaberry. I will state clearly here that I find the Karousel an upgrade over the Cirkus and a very substantial one. As in the comments from David Neel I am finding myself playing more vinyl now, but there is also a difference in how I play it. I am starting to act like Fredrik. At the first couple of Hi-Fi shows I did with him I noticed that he had a hard time doing quick A/B comparisons as he didn't want to take the stylus out of the groove in the middle of a song. He even apologized for doing so a few times. :-) Now, even when I am listening to a track for comparison purposes I find it hard not to listen to the whole track or even the whole side. I wasn't kidding when I said that in playing 21st Century Schizoid Man I found I had to listen to the whole side. I was just playing Late in the Evening off Paul Simon's album One Trick Pony and I waited too long to lift the stylus and the second song started so I had to listen to it, then I knew what the third track was so I had to listen to it as well. I did manage to lift the stylus after that. An even better example is Frank Sinatra. I just went back and listened to Wee Small Hours again to be sure of what I have been hearing (and it was wonderful - so much emotion in his voice and all the subtle shadings and vibrato so clearly captured). The second track, Mood Indigo, I have never really been impressed with as I couldn't get past it being sung by a white male crooner rather than a black woman with lots of soul. Except this time I really loved it, fully getting into his take on it. I ended up listening to the whole side.

I find that the Karousel drastically reduces the noise floor and reduces grunge between the notes allowing me to hear the quality of the instruments and voices and how they are being played and sung. But is it as tuneful? I would say it is easily more so. Some examples: I can't stop myself dancing to Late in the Evening and One Trick Pony. Can you hum along with the tune? I have a hard time not singing loudly with the tune whether it be to Frank Sinatra, Paul Simon or Greg Lake. There is a big question as to whether an independent observer would think I was in tune, and I will have to learn to restrain this tendency before the next Hi-Fi show I do, but it sure is fun. Another example is that I have taken up reading the book series The Witcher after having watched the TV series on Netflix (which I consider quite good but not for children-lots of nudity and profanity). Now I have a couple of times put on a record and started reading only to find I had to give up one or the other as the music drags my concentration away from the book. I consider these all good signs that the tunefulness is there. Indeed I would say it is there in spades and I have not heard music sound this good before. I sent all these clips to Simon through iMessage and he heard the same things I did, more emotion in Frank's singing and more quality playing by the musicians, more string sound on the piano and more forceful yet lyrical playing, more pressure in the calliope in the beginning of King Crimson and a much better drum and cymbal tone plus the ability to hear well into the thick mix, more power to the bass and interplay in the three musicians on the Baden Powell piece. I do notice a little sharpness in that clip which I don't hear in the room but I still find them all superior as did Simon.

So what is happening here? I'm not 100% sure but I will note that a similar level of confusion happened when I posted the first clips of SINGularity vs Urika. People had a hard time deciding which they liked, even Fredrik thought that it sounded like the Urika might do some things better, whereas the complete superiority of the SINGularity in every way was obvious in my room. Those who have heard it live have also heard what amazing musical delights SINGularity is capable of. Dispensing with any false modesty, I think there is little doubt that my system was very musical with the Cirkus, but I find it significantly more musical with the Karousel, the Cirkus sounding somewhat flat in comparison. Maybe it is just that when we are dealing with a product like the SINGularity or Karousel, that substantially reduces the noise floor and the amount of sounds blending together, it could take a while to become used to what it is doing. Certainly the Karousel sounds better in typical Hi-Fi terms as it is letting you hear more information than before, but I find that it tunes better as well and to me there is no sense of artificial detail that I find the bane of much current audio gear. You can just hear much farther into the recording and I find it serves the music. So I heartily recommend everyone hears one live for themselves. There are still people who don't feel the Cirkus bearing was an improvement so this could be an extension of that controversy, but I expect it will play out in a similar manner. I also plan on redoing these tracks in a couple of weeks when the whole turntable has had more play time.

A couple of answers to the technical questions. My understanding is that the inner platter and spindle were not changed in any way and that is how it appears to me. The platter itself is still obviously the same zinc/aluminum alloy machined and finished the same way as that on a Cirkus kit I installed a couple of months ago. The spindle also appears identical. So unless Linn strangely decided to slip some really subtle change in I would say it's exactly the same. As to the torques, does anybody really think I would do an LP12 upgrade and not investigate them? The best sounding torque I found for the top nut is 4.0Nm -2 notches on my main driver. I started at 3.8Nm +1 notch as that is where the Cirkus to Keel is most musical and I felt it best to start low. Then I tried 4.0Nm as per Linn and it sounded overall better but not universally so. So I backed it off and tried 4.0Nm -1, 2, 3 and 4 notches with -2 being easily preferable. I considered trying a half step but -2 just sounded right so I didn't bother. I didn't go above 4.0Nm as I saw no point but also because my driver really won't go much higher. The new driver I bought to handle the higher torques, like the 5Nm recommended for Cirkus sub-chassis, turned out to be junk so it is being returned. So there is the possibility there could be a higher torque that is better but I am doubtful. There is also a torque for the bottom cap and that is much lower. I found that I had to go above 2.0Nm to loosen it and 2.4Nm was where it loosened up on my driver. Testing some torques near that I found that 2.4Nm +2 notches was most musical. I would be careful with this cap and only just barely loosen it so the oil doesn't leak. It has an O-ring seal so you probably have to turn it a fair amount to get a leak, but I just barely loosened it to be safe. That is all you have to do in order to tighten it to the best torque. As always these torques can vary from driver to driver so it is best to test by ear. (I have a second driver I use for the highest torques and it reads 3.8Nm-2 where my main driver reads 4.0Nm -2.) I kept the foam top piece of the packing with the hole in it nearby allowing me to put the inner platter on it with the spindle facing straight up so I wouldn't loose oil. I also made sure I had the next torque I wanted to try already set on the driver so I wouldn't have the spindle out of the bearing for any more time than necessary. My Karousel and the other one I have here both have the mirrored thrust plate. I heard that the "diamond-like coating" was dispensed with but I haven't heard why. I wonder if maybe it wasn't electrically conductive and caused a problem with the proper grounding of the platter but there could be other reasons.

So that's all I have for now. It's time to take the stylus off Frank Sinatra so I can do some more reading!
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for the in-depth response Thomas. I'm looking forward to hearing one!
User avatar
El Mero Mero
Active member
Active member
Posts: 107
Joined: 2007-11-04 22:38
Location: Sweden

Re: Karousel

Post by El Mero Mero »

Tendaberry wrote: 2020-04-16 11:31 I heard a very clear improvement in all 4 clips with the Karousel. On the Baden Powell track, which at some point is slightly chaotic with the Cirkus, it gels much better and the drums are funkier. Frank's voice is much more intimate on the Karousel and I definitely feel the melancholy. And on King Crimson I got goose bumps with the Karousel, that didn't happen before. In the last clip we hear another example of how much better the (grand) piano gets with the Karousel.
I agree with Tendaberry here. I think one of the problems is that the volumes are so different when comparing the clips. Once that is adressed its much easier to compare the tracks. First I thought it was just a Hifi upgrade and that got me a bit worried since I just ordered a new LP12 for myself. But then when listening again I clearly prefer the Karousel clips.
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

Isn't it weird in clips in the past we can hear improvements in bias settings, ethernet cables torque settings etc,but when it comes to an actual upgrade its the old 'sounds better in the room' routine. This is the second set of clips I've heard and again it wasn't convincing . I think Linn are losing it, actually I thought they lost it a long time ago.
I know that tune
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Re: Karousel

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Thanks for the detailed and informative Karousel report Thomas, and happy birthday too!

Cheers
Tony Tune-age
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote: 2020-04-16 21:31 Isn't it weird in clips in the past we can hear improvements in bias settings, ethernet cables torque settings etc,but when it comes to an actual upgrade its the old 'sounds better in the room' routine.
Yes, it's weird.

Another set of clips, this time from Hidden Systems. What do you guys think?

https://www.hiddensystems.co.uk/new-blo ... ound-clips
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 975
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-04-16 20:09 Certainly the Karousel sounds better in typical Hi-Fi terms as it is letting you hear more information than before, but I find that it tunes better as well and to me there is no sense of artificial detail that I find the bane of much current audio gear. You can just hear much farther into the recording and I find it serves the music.
Yes.
The search for knowledge is not nourished by certainty, but by a radical distrust in certainty
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-16 22:52
Lego wrote: 2020-04-16 21:31 Isn't it weird in clips in the past we can hear improvements in bias settings, ethernet cables torque settings etc,but when it comes to an actual upgrade its the old 'sounds better in the room' routine.
Yes, it's weird.

Another set of clips, this time from Hidden Systems. What do you guys think?

https://www.hiddensystems.co.uk/new-blo ... ound-clips
I listened to these clips last week, when I thought I preferred the cirkus. I’ve just listened again, and now I’m not so sure, particularly after reading what David Neal and TOK had to say about how the Karousel allows greater insight into the recordings. I’m left confused atm, tbh.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Lego wrote: 2020-04-16 21:31 Isn't it weird in clips in the past we can hear improvements in bias settings, ethernet cables torque settings etc,but when it comes to an actual upgrade its the old 'sounds better in the room' routine. This is the second set of clips I've heard and again it wasn't convincing . I think Linn are losing it, actually I thought they lost it a long time ago.
I'm sorry but I really don't see this as any kind of example of it "sounds better in the room routine" being as at least five people (myself included and not including Simon who didn't hear them through here but preferred Karousel on all four) clearly find the Karousel to be substantially better in all four of the clips, some others didn't comment on all four clips but found one or more better and several others either didn't like any of them (yourself included) or had mixed feelings.

This is also certainly far from the first time that there has been disagreement on the preference of one clip (or set of clips) over another. It is true that it is rare for Fredrik and I to hear things differently, but it is also not totally unprecedented on clips (although I can't remember one time where we disagreed when we were listening in the same location). Clips aren't a perfect way of listening to differences, that is really only when listening comparisons are done in person (and even then there can be disagreement), but it is a method that we have generally found works fairly well and allows a goodly number of people to listen to comparisons and systems that they can't effectively hear in person.
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2020-04-17 04:32, edited 1 time in total.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-16 22:52 Another set of clips, this time from Hidden Systems. What do you guys think?

https://www.hiddensystems.co.uk/new-blo ... ound-clips
I listened to these last week when they came out, and I listened to them again just now. Honestly, I find the sax playing on the Cirkus sounds sloppy compared to it on the Karousel, especially on the low notes, but also throughout the clip. It is the same thing I heard when I listened to it the first time except it was more obvious on the device I used (I don't remember for sure but think it was my iPad) than it is through the Meridian M3s. I also feel the piano tone is a little better on the Karousel. There is no question the Cirkus sounds good on this clip, as it has sounded good for decades. It is also true that these aren't the best clips with the second one starting later in the track and sounding like a finger was moved over the microphone about 5 seconds into the Karousel clip. Also I don't know anything about the torques used or the setup. I am not trying to indicate a bad setup as the Karousel sounded quite good with the recommended 4Nm torque, however, the Karousel kit comes with a set of springs and grommets, and for the first time washers and suspension nuts. If the sub-chassis was completely removed, as in the Linn instructions, you are also removing the tonearm and arm cable and replacing the suspension parts with new ones. This results in a number of possible changes as well as a setup that will shift a little in 48 hours as the springs settle under the weight of the suspension.

I purposely tried to minimize all of that on my LP12 by not removing the arm or sub-chassis, only removing the left spring and replacing it with the same one in the same position. I therefore did not need to readjust any arm parameters (and I checked them this morning just to be sure: tracking and anti-skating force are exactly where I had them) and just needed to do a little suspension tweaking. So there was no need to let the suspension settle and retune it, and I did run it for four days, most of that with the platter spinning continuously, before making the After clips. (A little interesting lesson also came with this. Now that I have the LP12 back on the NOKTable the bounce is just beautiful, much better than I felt it was a few days ago when I was adjusting it. I came to the realization that the surface I had the LP12 jig on was not as solid as I thought it was and was allowing movement of the whole jig/turntable that was messing with the suspension. I was actually using the Mimer K to set the jig on. I will find a more solid surface at home when next I do a turntable here. So even seasoned veterans can make an error.)

All that said I still find the Karousel clip the more musical of these two, and I do feel it moves a bit better.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
u252agz
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 786
Joined: 2013-10-03 12:44
Location: UK

Re: Karousel

Post by u252agz »

Spannko wrote: 2020-04-17 01:12
lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-16 22:52
Lego wrote: 2020-04-16 21:31 Isn't it weird in clips in the past we can hear improvements in bias settings, ethernet cables torque settings etc,but when it comes to an actual upgrade its the old 'sounds better in the room' routine.
Yes, it's weird.

Another set of clips, this time from Hidden Systems. What do you guys think?

https://www.hiddensystems.co.uk/new-blo ... ound-clips
I listened to these clips last week, when I thought I preferred the cirkus. I’ve just listened again, and now I’m not so sure, particularly after reading what David Neal and TOK had to say about how the Karousel allows greater insight into the recordings. I’m left confused atm, tbh.
I also prefer the Cirkus in these clips - but wish I didn’t .

The Cirkus clip sounds musical all the way through - period.

The Karousel clip to my ears is sound wise much, much better and in tune for most of the recording:
But there is a section from around 7 secs to 15 secs that sounds 'out of tune' and spoils the whole track for me.

No amount of sonic improvement can compensate for this - even though it is a small part of the track it is enough to spoil it for me.

I had assumed that I would be ordering Karousel fairly soon, but will need to have a listen to some live decks.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
User avatar
Matteo
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 913
Joined: 2018-01-25 14:12
Location: Milano, Italia

Re: Karousel

Post by Matteo »

There are a lot of persons that prefer pre-cirkus LP12.

M.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

I think I know why I’ve become confused, after initially preferring the Cirkus. I’ve metamorphosed into a sheep! 🐑🐑🐑

I think I’ve succumbed to being influenced by the group, rather than purely making my own decision. I suppose this is why some people call for blind listening, with no discussion until after all votes are in.

So, until I hear one in the flesh, I’m going to stick with my original gut feeling that the Karousel appears to be less tuneful than the Circus.

Baa humbug!
Last edited by Spannko on 2020-04-17 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 975
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel »

Spannko, when the lockdown is over, you are invited for a vinyl session...
The search for knowledge is not nourished by certainty, but by a radical distrust in certainty
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

David Neel wrote: 2020-04-17 13:34 Spannko, when the lockdown is over, you are invited for a vinyl session...
Thanks David. I’m looking forward to it already 😁
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

Hermann and Thomas - did you reset your Radikal after fitting the Karousel?
The Radikal seems to have a learning procedure and it might be better to reset it as the learning was done with the Cirkus and the friction behavior of the Karousel should be different.
It can do no harm and might give a better musical quality.
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-16 22:52
Lego wrote: 2020-04-16 21:31 Isn't it weird in clips in the past we can hear improvements in bias settings, ethernet cables torque settings etc,but when it comes to an actual upgrade its the old 'sounds better in the room' routine.
Yes, it's weird.

Another set of clips, this time from Hidden Systems. What do you guys think?

https://www.hiddensystems.co.uk/new-blo ... ound-clips
Here I'm again for Karousel ...

Music / Tune / Musicality is much better expressed with all fine nuances that musicians (on bass, sax ...) are playing ... The effect is the same (to me) as on the Thomas clip on classical music (if it is comparable jazz & classical music, but you know what I mean) ... where on Cirkus I hear string instruments playing vs on Karousel they dance = violins ... violas ... cellos and above all together ...

I'm not saying that Cirkus is not Musical ... Cirkus is Musical, but Karousel is playing in different lеаgue / level of Musicality ...

P.S. Silence ... on Karousel have important part ... plays music ...
Music First ...
Vlado
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

Defender wrote: 2020-04-17 16:08 Hermann and Thomas - did you reset your Radikal after fitting the Karousel?
The Radikal seems to have a learning procedure and it might be better to reset it as the learning was done with the Cirkus and the friction behavior of the Karousel should be different.
It can do no harm and might give a better musical quality.
I did not. Thanks for the tip. I will catch up and report back with new recordings if necessary.
Trust your ears
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Karousel

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-16 22:52 Another set of clips, this time from Hidden Systems. What do you guys think?
https://www.hiddensystems.co.uk/new-blo ... ound-clips
Listening via Macbook Pro USB out>>>Khadas Tone Board DAC>>>Preamp/Poweramp>>>3677s
both me and Claudia found Cirkus more musical and lifelike.
Maybe Karousel needs more run-in?
But anyway this outcome is strange.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

After two days without music today the reset of Radikal was performed. But before I try to describe it, I know that the Karousel really needs time to run in. Even after three weeks I still notice slight changes.

Again Anne Dudly's piano, which today is more present and fits better to the percussion. This becomes clearer with Malia & Boris Blank - Convergence. How everything fits together, how the instruments search for the connection to each other is impressive.

After the reset the otherwise mentioned effect occurred less clearly. Bass and treble are hardly changed at all, but instead a wealth of notes is brought out that I had not noticed before. This is also hard to believe. Otherwise it is not possible for me to describe improved musicality. In my completely undamped room voices were often not easy to localize, after resetting it is history.

In any case I thank Defender for the hint.
Trust your ears
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

thats great to hear - really happy I could help ;)
if you dont mind and have time it would be great to hear something like Claire Cadillac, Fever or Magnetic Lies from that album - a normal recording with a mobile phone is enough.
alan
Member
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: 2012-05-07 08:23
Location: France

Re: Karousel

Post by alan »

Isn’t it easy to get a good opinion, apart from the video intermediary? As we know, a listening system is limited to the weakest part; likely that the richness of the Karousel reveals in a more incisive way the limits and defects of the technology clips? The future listening life-size with Karousel, electronic and speakers, will specify it.
User avatar
Hermann
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 616
Joined: 2018-05-13 06:52
Location: Ruhrgebiet

Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

Trust your ears
Post Reply