Karousel

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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ThomasOK
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Re: Karousel

Post by ThomasOK »

Hi all! Apparently I've been away from the forum longer than I realized. The days all run together being on lockdown, plus it has been an unusually busy few days. I finally received a number of Boazu units that Fredrik had shipped me but are taking much longer than normal to get here. Not a surprise but i still don't have one shipped over a month ago. But I did get the others and shipped three back out on Monday along with an Entity, so Nokturne Audio business is good despite current conditions. Then we had Easter and on Saturday my birthday so I haven't been on the computer that much. But otherwise, I am handling lockdown just fine and am in good health. Now if it would just stop the April snow it decided to do last night and today and warm up, I could go back to getting my garden prepared for a bunch of vegetables!

I figured this thread was the best place to give you a status update as I have some information I hope will be worthwhile. I have gotten my hands on two Karousel kits which were intended for our demo LP12s. But since I won't be able to put them in our demos until the end of the month and a whole bunch more are supposed to be coming soon, including the two I ordered for myself, I pilfered one to put in my Klimax LP12 (with full understanding of the store which knows that a few of my customers are just waiting on my report to order them).

I installed it initially last week but it wasn't until Monday that I got the install finished. In part because I had to find the proper new torques and in part because my personal LP12 is a pain in the ass to get the suspension working right. People who don't work on LP12s frequently probably don't realize that they have different personalities. On some turntables the suspension just works beautifully with very little tweaking, on others you can end up fighting them for hours to get the bounce acceptable. There is no reason I have been able to observe for these differences as things like proper top plate fitting, plinth flatness, and straightness of the suspension bolts are not the problem. Now I love my LP12 as it is the most musical one I have ever heard. But every time I have to mess with the suspension it fights me and the best I can hope to get is an acceptable bounce but not the best bounce. My second LP12 dos not give me those problems and has a better bounce. Like I said, LP12s can be temperamental beasts!

But now it is all back together and singing like it should (actually like it never has before). So I thought I'd share it with you all. Four quite different pieces of music. There is 10 days between the two and the volume might not be quite the same. For some reason I lowered the volume on the last clip of the second set about 4 dB so I think its a bit quieter. Other than that I tried to keep things as much the same as possible. I did not replace the springs and grommets as they were already pretty new. I did not completely remove the sub chassis and all springs are in their original positions. I did have to readjust the suspension a little bit but the only thing actually changed was the bearing housing and inner platter/spindle. I let the Karousel LP12 run for four days to fully bed in the bearing and played a couple of hours of music both times to fully warm up the system before making the recordings. I also made them at the same time of day and in the same order. However, I had to listen to the entire side of King Crimson as it was so good on the Karousel so it had darkened a bit by the time I got to the classical piece. Enjoy!

Before

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bkkklq8bepsqi ... M.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vtqsx0ovjno5a ... M.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4mhnbrwmf2v3 ... M.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zz9x7tcblb4aa ... M.mov?dl=0

After

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4dlcw3oa9va2 ... M.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6wde4gp1vnt2 ... M.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3y7xr42ajkf35 ... M.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bm3p4964upzv9 ... M.mov?dl=0
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tokenbrit
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Re: Karousel

Post by tokenbrit »

The piano, especially, seems to love the Karousel... or maybe it's the other way round - either way, in concerto, it is not A Minor improvement :)
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

Sounds, great.I was playing this through my phone speaker, my daughter pops in and said the cellos sound good, OK listen to Karousel . She says voice sounds better cellos sound worse....Back to listening :0)
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

I wasn't entirely convinced by the difference in the first clip, so I tried the second. Ahh, Sinatra's 'In the wee small hours', grips me every time! This song sounds absolutely magical on your system, Thomas, so after having heard the entire 'Before' clip (and regret its sudden ending), I was really eager to hear the 'After' clip.

Much to my surprise, I find the 'After' clip clearly worse. This is evident already in the initial melody accompanied by the strings. In the before clip, there is finesse and an interplay with the strings. There is a build up of the emotion of the song. In the after clip, the melody is played without finesse and with less interplay with the strings. There's almost a childish rather than a melancholic quality to the intro. And when Frank starts singing, it doesn't move me.

I'm not listening to any more clips tonight. I might have worked too hard today and gone temporarily deaf. Will try again tomorrow.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

Not sure about this on the first track, the after track sounded a bit flat, actually it gave me a queezy feeling in my stomach.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

a little bit late since I didnt know but - Happy Birthday Thomas - stay healthy and the way you are. Thank you for all your work and support.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

I agree with Fredrik in the Sinatra clip the emotion is almost gone in the Karousel clip ... his voice seems to get more in the foreground and the orchestra more in the background but that makes both more separated from each other.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

I heard a very clear improvement in all 4 clips with the Karousel. On the Baden Powell track, which at some point is slightly chaotic with the Cirkus, it gels much better and the drums are funkier. Frank's voice is much more intimate on the Karousel and I definitely feel the melancholy. And on King Crimson I got goose bumps with the Karousel, that didn't happen before. In the last clip we hear another example of how much better the (grand) piano gets with the Karousel.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

A question to those who have installed the Karousel: Is the inner platter still made of the same material as before? Is is different at all? Somebody claimed it's now made of stainless steel, which I don't believe. The bearing housing is made of stainless steel, that's clear (as Linn says so).
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Re: Karousel

Post by Defender »

I think Thomas said somewhere the inner platter is the same - so no change. Linn would have communicated if there would be such a substantial material change and why.
Still struggling with the first two clips but I agree the 3rd one sounds better.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

I've had a good night's sleep and am ready for more comparisons of Cirkus versus Karousel.

The third track is the first one where I feel that there might be a musical advantage to Karousel. The drums sound more precise and real and in general there's a cleaner more dynamic feeling to the sound, which makes it easier to hear all details. Is the song any better or the performance more convincing? Maybe a little, but I'm unsure.

On the fourth track I find the grand piano sounds more real on Karousel. Big difference in sound quality! Cirkus sounds more like a (good) recording, in that it has some typical limitations in dynamics and in the quality of the harmonics.

Musically, however, I feel that the pianist makes a better performance on Cirkus. There he plays it with a passion, with a push and a pull on the notes, while on Karousel he plays more like a machine. Technically more correct perhaps? I'm not sure.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Tendaberry wrote: 2020-04-16 12:13 A question to those who have installed the Karousel: Is the inner platter still made of the same material as before? Is is different at all? Somebody claimed it's now made of stainless steel, which I don't believe. The bearing housing is made of stainless steel, that's clear (as Linn says so).
I have another question to those who have installed Karousel.

Did anyone get a bearing surface with the "diamond like coating" that Linn initially mentioned? Or do they all have a mirror polished steel plate, like Cirkus?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

And another question for Tom: Did you try different torque values and if so, which did you arrive at for the Keel?
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Re: Karousel

Post by 17brutus »

Why not taking the Linn torque settings?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Freddy »

Thanks Thomas for these clips. To me Karousell sound is more clear, detailed and dynamic but also a little bit harsh on these clips. It's very different soundvise. Is it better, more tuneful and musical? I don´t know yet, I need to hear it in real life for sure! Especially clip 3 sounds very harsh on my computer speakers.

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Re: Karousel

Post by u252agz »



I am afraid I agree with Fredrik.


in the Second clip and Fourth clips I find the 'Before' to be better.



Second clip - I find the vocals out of tune in the After clip compared to Before, which is really really good.

Fourth Clip - The piano notes sound impressive in the After clip but not as musical as the Before. Quite significant difference in musicality


First clip - I could live with 'After' but prefer 'Before' . Not my kind of music so I have no strong feelings.


Third clip - The 'Before' sounds good - 'After' sounds marginally better.


This is not in keeping with the reports from WYSAH on the link earlier on this thread.

I am confused.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

I'm also struggling a bit with these clips. Need to hear one for real but that's not gonna happen very soon.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2020-04-16 15:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-16 13:33
Tendaberry wrote: 2020-04-16 12:13 A question to those who have installed the Karousel: Is the inner platter still made of the same material as before? Is is different at all? Somebody claimed it's now made of stainless steel, which I don't believe. The bearing housing is made of stainless steel, that's clear (as Linn says so).
I have another question to those who have installed Karousel.

Did anyone get a bearing surface with the "diamond like coating" that Linn initially mentioned? Or do they all have a mirror polished steel plate, like Cirkus?
My Karousel shows the mirror, as can be seen in the picture, but I don't know what the other one looks like.
_MG_1033.jpg
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-04-15 19:18
Hermann wrote: 2020-04-09 11:13
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-04-08 20:25
[...] An old style P-Clip is also included as those generally should be replaced when they have to be removed, which is the case to install the Karousel.
[...]
Does it really matter? I didn't change the clip, didn't see the point. Why should it be replaced?
Sorry if I concerned you, Hermann. I did say generally. If your P-Clip is relatively new and in good condition you shouldn't need to replace it. However, the white plastic P-Clips do get brittle with age and can easily crack when being properly re-tightened. Also I have seen a number that were stretched out or otherwise damaged. So I replace them whenever they don't appear to be in really good shape.
Many thanks Thomas for the clarification.
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Last edited by Hermann on 2020-04-16 14:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

Hermann wrote: 2020-04-16 14:37 My Karousel shows the mirror, as can be seen in the picture, but I don't know what the other one looks like.
Was there definitely another variant?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

Obviously during development. Let's see what Thomas has to say about this.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

I’m sorry to say, but I’m also in agreement with most of us here. Sonically, the Karousel is a great improvement, however, musically, it’s a huge disappointment. To me, it makes everything sound badly out of tune. Hopefully, it’ll improve with more usage 🤞
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Re: Karousel

Post by Tendaberry »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-04-16 14:39
Hermann wrote: 2020-04-16 14:37 My Karousel shows the mirror, as can be seen in the picture, but I don't know what the other one looks like.
Was there definitely another variant?
This image suggests there was:
Bearing.jpeg
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

Curious - thanks Hermann
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Re: Karousel

Post by Hermann »

Spannko wrote: 2020-04-16 14:48 I’m sorry to say, but I’m also in agreement with most of us here. Sonically, the Karousel is a great improvement, however, musically, it’s a huge disappointment. To me, it makes everything sound badly out of tune. Hopefully, it’ll improve with more usage 🤞
That will show Spannko like a few days after my rebuilding.

However, as I mentioned before, I don't think that clips really show the increase in musicality as it is possible at home. I would wait for a demo where the own music or well known music is played.

My first impression when Anne Dudley was playing was the improvement in musicality, everything else was encore. This has not changed until today.
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Re: Karousel

Post by David Neel »

What I heard in Thomas' clips was consistent, to me, with what I have heard with my own Karousel. (Since my LP12 arrived back four weeks after I last heard it, and with an SE/1 in place of the SE, I can't offer a definitive comparison.)

I am wary of the limitations of playground clips - some of the things which are apparent in the room do not get captured. In this case I suspect that some of what Thomas hears in the room gets lost in translation. The Karousel is particularly good, compared with Cirkus, in articulating cleanly the low-level information in the groove - without turning it into spotlit "detail". In my system, I hear this as cleaner, deeper bass, more venue acoustics, and similar. But it also cleans up the primary musical voices, so that their "edges" lack "dirt" or imprecision, and I suspect that only this effect is being heard on the clips due to the technology limitations.

In an extended vinyl binge since I got the LP12 back, I have felt more engaged in the music, and have revised my preferred (all analogue) version of Shostakovich 5 (Sanderling rather than Mravinsky) and Mahler 6 (now Barbirolli). These LPs in particular have clicked into sharp focus as more and cleaner information comes through. A handful of tracks which have been very obviously toe-tapping are now less overtly so, with more breath between the notes, as the sound is cleaned up - but the greater insight more than compensates.

So I hear and understand the doubters - but just wait until you hear one for real! Karousel is going to cause faster stylus wear...
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