Recording Bass Guitar

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Charlie1 »

Not sure this is the best section but here goes.

I don't much care for modern recorded bass guitar, no matter what the system I hear it on. I've thought this for many years so it's nothing new. By modern I mean post-70s :)

Modern bass is often very droning and miserable to my ears, perhaps too deep for my liking. I would describe early 70s bass recordings are melodic, suptious and tuneful.

Is it just me?

Any thoughts why? Someone said it might be cos they now plug the bass guitar directly into the mixing desk, instead of playing it through an amp and speaker.
OscarH
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 304
Joined: 2019-03-14 10:57
Location: Exile on Dane St.

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by OscarH »

For starters, bass guitar in 60's and 70's pop rock is rarely very deep. Whether this is by preference or available recording methods I do not know. But I would suspect the more mid range heavy bass sounds would typically be perceived as more melodic.

Do you have any particular recordings that exemplify your view on modern bass?
donuk
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 406
Joined: 2010-02-21 13:25

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by donuk »

Hi Charlie1
Not an expert on bass guitars, except having played jazz guitar alongside them for many decades...

The trouble is, that in modern music the bass - whatever sort - plays a least two roles.

In simple terms.

Ideally it should provide an interesting counterpoint and predict and state something of the chord.

Secondly it provides a sonic thump to simply state the beat, flap trousers, and vibrate chest cavities.

Which is why I nearly always play with a string bass player these days in small combo work.

I suspect you and I prefer to hear the pitch of the bass parts. Someone like John Heard could play bass lines worthy of Bach - creating a tune as well as underpinning what the rest of the band are doing. Listen to him on Count Basie Meets Oscar Peterson – The Timekeepers. Well recorded bass.

In jazz concerts I prefer the bass amp to be up on a stand where it can be loud and not boomy. I have also done a limited amount of recording work where and electric bass was plugged straight into the desk. This works fine if the controller is sensitive and knows what you are trying to achieve. As I said in the previous thread, setting up a bass amplifier in an unknown venue is a black art, and sometimes cannot be successful.

Has anyone got the Linda Ronstadt recordings (wonderful) with Nelson Riddle of standards around the 1980s I think?
I love these, but I always think the bass is fudged. Too deep and vague for my liking. Trying to be fashionable I feel. Modern Rod Steward sings the American songbook recordings, similar.

Another fact that is overlooked when setting up bass amplifiers is not to place them near other microphones or instruments with pickups. My gypsy-jazz guitar sounds sick when being modulated by an adjacent bass!

Are you a bass player? What are your experiences? Feel free to disagree - I am not an expert.

Donuk beautiful downtown York
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Charlie1 »

OscarH wrote: 2020-02-26 15:20 For starters, bass guitar in 60's and 70's pop rock is rarely very deep. Whether this is by preference or available recording methods I do not know. But I would suspect the more mid range heavy bass sounds would typically be perceived as more melodic.

Do you have any particular recordings that exemplify your view on modern bass?
Nothing comes to mind but I'll keep an ear out. I would say most modern rock/pop.

I suppose 33.3 RPM LP helped ensure bass didn't go too keep but once digital was primary medium then the rules changed.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Charlie1 »

donuk wrote: 2020-02-26 15:32 I suspect you and I prefer to hear the pitch of the bass parts. Someone like John Heard could play bass lines worthy of Bach - creating a tune as well as underpinning what the rest of the band are doing. Listen to him on Count Basie Meets Oscar Peterson – The Timekeepers. Well recorded bass.
Yes, I really like tuneful bass melodies in particular, mainly pop/rock.

I only have a couple of Count Basie LPs but I'll search that one out.

I do understand some rock music relies on a different kind of pulsing deep bass which is less about melody. Nothing against that in itself.

I'm not musician of any sort so just curious.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Good modern bass examples for me would include Feel Good Inc. by Gorillaz and Uh Uh by Thundercat.

And the previously unreleased, alternate take, version of Paul Simon, Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes which is phenomenal!
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
markiteight
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 834
Joined: 2012-01-13 01:50
Location: Seattle, Wa. USA

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by markiteight »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-26 16:37 Good modern bass examples for me would include Feel Good Inc. by Gorillaz and Uh Uh by Thundercat.

And the previously unreleased, alternate take, version of Paul Simon, Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes which is phenomenal!
Waitaminute...what?!?!
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Spannko »

markiteight wrote: 2020-02-27 04:51
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-26 16:37 Good modern bass examples for me would include Feel Good Inc. by Gorillaz and Uh Uh by Thundercat.

And the previously unreleased, alternate take, version of Paul Simon, Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes which is phenomenal!
Waitaminute...what?!?!
It’s on the 25th anniversary deluxe edition of Graceland.
OscarH
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 304
Joined: 2019-03-14 10:57
Location: Exile on Dane St.

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by OscarH »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-27 05:51
markiteight wrote: 2020-02-27 04:51
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-26 16:37 Good modern bass examples for me would include Feel Good Inc. by Gorillaz and Uh Uh by Thundercat.

And the previously unreleased, alternate take, version of Paul Simon, Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes which is phenomenal!
Waitaminute...what?!?!
It’s on the 25th anniversary deluxe edition of Graceland.
The anniversary edition is on Spotify, should one not want to buy yet another copy of Graceland. Not that you can have too many copies of Graceland really...
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by FairPlayMotty »

markiteight wrote: 2020-02-27 04:51
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-26 16:37 Good modern bass examples for me would include Feel Good Inc. by Gorillaz and Uh Uh by Thundercat.

And the previously unreleased, alternate take, version of Paul Simon, Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes which is phenomenal!
Waitaminute...what?!?!
Wait a minute that's why it's described as a previously unreleased alternate take :)
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Spannko »

OscarH wrote: 2020-02-27 08:38
Spannko wrote: 2020-02-27 05:51
markiteight wrote: 2020-02-27 04:51

Waitaminute...what?!?!
It’s on the 25th anniversary deluxe edition of Graceland.
The anniversary edition is on Spotify, should one not want to buy yet another copy of Graceland. Not that you can have too many copies of Graceland really...
One of my biggest gripes about streaming services is the lack of alternative versions. There have been 3 digital releases of Graceland, and they all sound quite different.

The original in the 80’s is just a poor transfer, and not a patch on the original vinyl. The best digital version is the 1996 remaster, which retains the originals dynamic range and is a good transfer. Then there’s the 25th anniversary edition, which sadly is a victim of the loudness wars.

Unfortunately, the only version available on Qobuz is the 25th anniversary edition, which is a real bummer.
User avatar
markiteight
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 834
Joined: 2012-01-13 01:50
Location: Seattle, Wa. USA

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by markiteight »

OscarH wrote: 2020-02-27 08:38 Not that you can have too many copies of Graceland really...
Considering it's my all-time favorite album I would tend to agree.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by FairPlayMotty »

markiteight wrote: 2020-02-27 21:01
OscarH wrote: 2020-02-27 08:38 Not that you can have too many copies of Graceland really...
Considering it's my all-time favorite album I would tend to agree.
If you're a Graceland junkie try the Rough Guide To The Soul Brothers. Isiphiwo for example is a clear clue to what Paul Simon was listening to at the time.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by FairPlayMotty »

The best versions of Paul Simon's albums for me are the blu spec CDs. I think I have every physical digital version released. The 2011 live version of Sounds of Silence is stunning.

Had any other artist released his later albums he would have got plaudits. The highly regarded Neon Skyline by Andy Shauf isn't in the same league as the later Paul Simon albums imho but he's new (albeit coming dangerously close to more than only Simon influence on at least one track, Where Are You Judy).
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
sunbeamgls
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 2012-04-04 15:19
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by sunbeamgls »

I would've thought that a miked up valve bass guitar amp would sound quite different to plugging the guitar straight into the mixing desk.
Perhaps you'd enjoy valve amps in your system Charlie1? Did you hear the sound you like in any of the valve powered systems at Bristol?
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
User avatar
markiteight
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 834
Joined: 2012-01-13 01:50
Location: Seattle, Wa. USA

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by markiteight »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-28 00:26 If you're a Graceland junkie try the Rough Guide To The Soul Brothers. Isiphiwo for example is a clear clue to what Paul Simon was listening to at the time.
Thanks, FPM. I'll look into that.
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-28 00:42 The best versions of Paul Simon's albums for me are the blu spec CDs. I think I have every physical digital version released. The 2011 live version of Sounds of Silence is stunning.
What is a "blu spec" CD?
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Charlie1 »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-02-28 01:00 I would've thought that a miked up valve bass guitar amp would sound quite different to plugging the guitar straight into the mixing desk.
Perhaps you'd enjoy valve amps in your system Charlie1? Did you hear the sound you like in any of the valve powered systems at Bristol?
I guess so. Would most of them be valve amped in the early 70s?

You’re not trying to get me started on a new craze are you Sunbeam? I sense one of your cheeky smiles behind the words :)

Audio note was good with vinyl but I lost interest when they put a cd on. There were 3-4 others but they always play the same types of music which sound very lifelike / ‘in the room’ but are not my bread and butter. I’d like to hear a good valve setup play rock.
sunbeamgls
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 2012-04-04 15:19
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by sunbeamgls »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-02-29 10:01
sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-02-28 01:00 I would've thought that a miked up valve bass guitar amp would sound quite different to plugging the guitar straight into the mixing desk.
Perhaps you'd enjoy valve amps in your system Charlie1? Did you hear the sound you like in any of the valve powered systems at Bristol?
I guess so. Would most of them be valve amped in the early 70s?

You’re not trying to get me started on a new craze are you Sunbeam? I sense one of your cheeky smiles behind the words :)

Audio note was good with vinyl but I lost interest when they put a cd on. There were 3-4 others but they always play the same types of music which sound very lifelike / ‘in the room’ but are not my bread and butter. I’d like to hear a good valve setup play rock.
Pretty much all bass amps in the 60s and 70s will have been valve. They're still popular now. They're described as adding colouration. Of course, when creating music, adding colouration is part of the creative choices musicians make. It can be obvious distortion but it can also add a kind of growliness to the notes, amongst other options. Its probably possible to emulate this in pedals and DSPs now.

https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-best-bass-amps

Whilst I would say that not adding colouration is one of the goals of a hifi system, there are clearly some (not all, although it is a frequent characteristic) valve amp display what many call a warmth or a smoothness amongst those that enjoy it. There are also valve amps that don't display theses characteristics, at least not as obviously.

I was merely speculating that there may be a link. There may be no link at all.

AudioNote? I always struggle to find music in their stuff. When playing standard hifi show simple jazz its easy to enjoy a tune. But they do play more complex and rock music in the room when things, strangely, get boomy and harsh at the same time and its difficult to hear any music through that. I thought the Living Voice and Rogers rooms had decently musical valve amps this year. There were probably some hybrid examples around too. Icon Audio seem to do a good job usually, as do Jolida but I didn't see either around this year. Try the Wam Show on 15 March or Cranage at the end of June if you want to hear more examples.

And no, I'm not attempting to lead you anywhere Charlie, you're quite capable of heading off in a new direction all by yourself :D
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by FairPlayMotty »

markiteight wrote: 2020-02-29 02:43
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-28 00:26 If you're a Graceland junkie try the Rough Guide To The Soul Brothers. Isiphiwo for example is a clear clue to what Paul Simon was listening to at the time.
Thanks, FPM. I'll look into that.
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-02-28 00:42 The best versions of Paul Simon's albums for me are the blu spec CDs. I think I have every physical digital version released. The 2011 live version of Sounds of Silence is stunning.
What is a "blu spec" CD?
It's one of a number of ways the Japanese flog CDs with hype, along with SHM (super high material), PSHM (platinum) etc. In theory it's made to the specification of a blu ray disc. Some of these CDs are brilliant simply because they're true remasters of badly mastered first generation CDs. The Paul Simon remasters were obviously a few generations from the original releases but are my favourite versions of his - I think they were used to try to market the format. My favourite remaster is the SHM-CD of the Rickie Lee Jones debut. There's a reason that album was a staple demo LP for HiFi shops for years - the material is great and the session players are some of the finest assembled. The remastered CD restores the lost information from the first generation CD - the mastering is terrific!
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Charlie1 »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-02-29 11:22 Pretty much all bass amps in the 60s and 70s will have been valve. They're still popular now. They're described as adding colouration. Of course, when creating music, adding colouration is part of the creative choices musicians make. It can be obvious distortion but it can also add a kind of growliness to the notes, amongst other options. Its probably possible to emulate this in pedals and DSPs now.

https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-best-bass-amps

Whilst I would say that not adding colouration is one of the goals of a hifi system, there are clearly some (not all, although it is a frequent characteristic) valve amp display what many call a warmth or a smoothness amongst those that enjoy it. There are also valve amps that don't display theses characteristics, at least not as obviously.

I was merely speculating that there may be a link. There may be no link at all.

AudioNote? I always struggle to find music in their stuff. When playing standard hifi show simple jazz its easy to enjoy a tune. But they do play more complex and rock music in the room when things, strangely, get boomy and harsh at the same time and its difficult to hear any music through that. I thought the Living Voice and Rogers rooms had decently musical valve amps this year. There were probably some hybrid examples around too. Icon Audio seem to do a good job usually, as do Jolida but I didn't see either around this year. Try the Wam Show on 15 March or Cranage at the end of June if you want to hear more examples.

And no, I'm not attempting to lead you anywhere Charlie, you're quite capable of heading off in a new direction all by yourself :D
Thanks for the bass amp link. Quite interesting.

I liked the Rogers room too. Never heard the LS3/5a before. I thought I'd hate it but I liked that system. I could hear more 'Kan' than I was expecting, especially the treble timing.
sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-02-29 11:22And no, I'm not attempting to lead you anywhere Charlie, you're quite capable of heading off in a new direction all by yourself :D
Too true! :)
dasher
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 75
Joined: 2013-09-22 22:31

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by dasher »

I suspect that it largely comes down too what the engineer/producer/primary artist is looking for. Today it possible to lay down just about what ever sound one can think of. Personally I do not mic the cabs - but I'm in a home studio and just haven't got the room to capture decent sound from the cabs. So I go to the desk - but never direct. I use an Eden WTP amp (lots of power in a very small footprint) and this has a DI out. I then have the freedom to play with the signal via a range of pedals - but usually it's via a Sansamp Bass pedal and a small amount of compression. This way the bass can be controlled so that it can range from tight and sharp - fast attack with little decay to all the way to very resonant - slow attack and controlled decay. This description sounds almost like bass synth and in many ways it is just that.

If not recording I use the Eden into two Eden cabs. The response is very fast - the signal being fed from the instrument is, to me, well represented. I still use a small amount of pedal - but that is 'trim'. The sound is full, goes deep, but is also 'modern' in that it is. well defined. This is then miked to the desk I rarely play live these days though.

The instrument does matter. I have an earlier Japanese Squier Jazz Bass (a "JV") and that is very colourful - takes a lot of 'shaping' otherwise it moves out of the sweet spot and into wooly land very quickly. I also have a Fender Jazz with a built in active Kubicki pre amp. This is my main instrument and very clean sounding.

I've gone through the big US valve amps and stacks, 90's Trace Elliot super clean stuff but the 21st Century Eden, Mark Bass and the like I find just so much better in all ways - it is like having the best of big valves and super tight solid state in a small box.

I can't comment on stand up acoustic as I've never even attempted it!

An example of what I really like can be found in Steve Swallow's playing on the latest Carla Bley album "Life Goes On" - ECM get something special out of that Swiss Radio Room!

On the HiFi I have active Espeks and they are permanently re-inforced even in stereo mode by a pair of Sizmyk 10.5 subs. The subs are set very subtle and just support the lower octaves - from about 200Hz down to really low!
Math
Member
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: 2020-03-03 10:37

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Math »

dasher,

I think the bass in Carla Bleys album "Life Goes On" is a good example of what Charlie1 don't like about the usual bass recordings in the modern world, the simplified way of D.I recording to get a bass recording that's easy to control in the mix over a natural-sounding reproduction of the real sound.

I think the sound of the bass in your example sounds somewhat lifeless and it got too much definition, a sound you probably never will hear from a real bass from a real amplifier in a real room. Something important happens when sound travels through air, even if the microphones are fairly close to the amps speaker.

I don't think recording bass and guitar at home with microphones is a big problem because of the close placement of the microphones to the amp, the room will not have a big impact over the direct sound.
In my own recordings at home, I use two close microphones, one dark and one bright and blend them to taste and a third microphone with a distance of around 3 meters to get just a little bit more space to sound more natural.



I don't know how the following example was recorded, maybe just microphones or a blend with D.I?
If it was only D.I, I need to take back everything I just said but it sounds like a real amp to me. :)
I also think this represents the kind of bass sound Charlie1 prefers.

Curtis Mayfield - Power to the People (Demo Version)
https://tidal.com/browse/track/3044313
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Charlie1 »

Math wrote: 2020-03-03 12:34 I also think this represents the kind of bass sound Charlie1 prefers.

Curtis Mayfield - Power to the People (Demo Version)
https://tidal.com/browse/track/3044313
That's very nice. I don't have any of his work - something I should address.

It doesn't have to be so well defined and recorded though. This is my idea of tuneful bass guitar - 'Into the Mystic':
https://tidal.com/browse/track/23134629

I do wonder if I'm just a sucker for the higher notes of the bass guitar, especially when played more as a lead instrument / melody maker. I enjoy musicians who can create good bass melodies, such as Mike Mills (Can't Get There From Here) and Simon Gallup (Close to Me).
OscarH
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 304
Joined: 2019-03-14 10:57
Location: Exile on Dane St.

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by OscarH »

Came to think of this tread this afternoon.

Why?

The Who - “Live at Leeds”.

In my view that’s a very good example of rock bass guitar that’s both allowed to sound like a full instrument AND it’s played a lot.

I mean, they all play a lot haha... and with just three instruments it works. Though I very much doubt you could get Keith Moon to play less...
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Recording Bass Guitar

Post by Lego »

In my humble opinion, you're not supposed to notice the bass until it stops playing.

A wee side note, just before Chic's Bernard Edwards died he was playing live on stage and was intermittently having blackouts. Nile Rodgers was totally unaware as he said the gaps in the bass were always in time so it must have been a deliberate improvisation. Bernard Edwards died shortly after the show. A player to the end.
Last edited by Lego on 2020-07-22 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
I know that tune
Post Reply