Briks missing bass

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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by ThomasOK »

I've only heard Ovators at shows but was never particularly impressed. MusicLover did a major search for a top line speaker after selling his Komris several years back. I'm pretty sure he detailed some of his findings here. In the end he went with the JBL 3677 with the 4645C sub combination I was happily using before I got the Quads. I remember he listened to a fair number of expensive speakers and felt the Ovators were some of the least musical.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by matthias »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-02-21 18:41 I've only heard Ovators at shows but was never particularly impressed. MusicLover did a major search for a top line speaker after selling his Komris several years back. I'm pretty sure he detailed some of his findings here. In the end he went with the JBL 3677 with the 4645C sub combination I was happily using before I got the Quads. I remember he listened to a fair number of expensive speakers and felt the Ovators were some of the least musical.
+1
I can add that the Ovators are prone to distorsions when driven at higher volume settings something I never discovered with my 3677s.

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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Defender »

I am not sure if I understand your description of the room very well but if there is a hole in the ground to lift bigger equipment through the different levels I suspect that hole eating up bass energy/confusing things.
I had a comparable situation with a friends hifi system where his system was placed in a room with planks. We couldn't get it to work nicely it was always not involving.
He moved to another room and it became wonderful.

Its a pitty with the Ovators as they attracted me too a while ago but also heard mixed opinions - never managed to hear them.
Right now I would rather look into Dynaudio or Vandersteen.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Thanks for your time to respond and the experience with the S600. The demo will not take place, as the risk of a bad buy seems too great to me. Therefore nothing has to be transported to the dealer ;-)

@Defender
Your observation is not unfounded. The podium was only a very short time in consideration, but is quickly discarded. It is extremely solidly built and strongly damped. On the other hand the problem is older than the platform. Previously there were carpets on the planks, but because of the stone floor it was necessary to proceed this way. I'm afraid I only have some bad smartphone pictures available...

I never got warm with Dynaudio, but that was decades ago. I've never heard of Vandersteen. But thanks for the advice. I think I'll follow up on that last one.

I will now put this back, because the system is being rebuilt. After that I will see if the problem still exists.

Thanks to all...
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Defender »

hi Hermann,
I remember that you was some time ago writing about your impressions when you upgraded your system and you spoke with very emotional words - does my memory fool me and it was someone else in the forum?

What happened meanwhile - did you changed something - how do you now realize that bass is missing.

When you hear music do you sit on the sofa on the podest or somewhere else?... saw the drawing now - how about you place the chair down from the podest more close to the LP12.
Your Briks seem to be very far from each other. I would expec distances of 1.4 - 1.6Meter more sufficiant.
Thats an easy try before spending a lot of money.

Not many dealers for Vandersteen are available in Germany. But I have seen them once in a while used ... also in the Netherlands.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Hi Defender,
no, your memory's not fooling you. I still stand by the statement. The system sounds incredibly musical, but sometimes it makes me thinking. As an example "Khmer" is not mentioned in vain, because there is a bass to be heard which is incredibly deep. Another one would be "Paul Motian Trio - Le Voyage". Deep bass, hardly any pressure. The problem didn't appear suddenly, it's been existing since we've been living in this apartment, only I haven't approached it publicly yet, but tried to find a solution by changing the room acoustics, but wasnt succesfull.

There is no pressure as a dynamic speaker should produce it. From my time with the Dayton Whrigt XG10 electrostats I know that the bass can come very easily and without pressure.

About the listening position. I know the briks really well and have heard them in many setups, also actively. One thing has always been peculiar to this speaker - the missing "sweet spot". It's the same here. Even one room further or if loud enough one floor down, rhythm and musicality are always very good to hear. Nevertheless, nothing changes when I sit in the sweet spot or move back and forth. What remains is a bass that is too quiet.

The same system in another room was the best music system I ever heard.

I'm now taking everything apart to rebuild the setup. Then hopefully I know more.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Defender »

just want to check if you moved your system because when I heard your Karousel clips I didnt think there was something missing with respect to the bass
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Thought I'd get the question, and maybe I wouldn't have to give the answer... ;-)

The reason for improvement is a change in the setup.

As a long time Mana user I came to the conclusion to have sound stages that don't work in the stack. Which work individually, but not stacked. Admittedly, I have not accepted this as a solution for far too long, although it has been reported about it for a long time. A fundamental change was necessary. Sorting out the Stages was out of the question, because it was clearly too complex.

Fortunately the first step was the solution. Amplifier, power supplies and the streamer to another support. My dealer sent his Fraims for test purposes and so I came to the change. Since the amps etc. are on Naim Fraim the problem has disappeared. Deep and powerful bass is now reproduced by the music system even in quiet passages. Maybe a little bit of pressure is still missing, but sometimes the bass is already too much. This means that these differences are due to the recording.

The carousel rounds off the change in an extremely positive way. The quality of the bass has increased enormously with the upgrade.

LP12 and the briks are still on mana and will probably remain so. There the setup works. Preamp, streamers and power supplies are now on Fraim and I like that very much.

Am I satisfied? Actually yes, but music is a basic part of my life and changes are the salt in the soup from time to time.

Thx to all contributors
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Defender »

actually thats great to hear - I know what you are speaking about with respect to music being a big part in life.
However we have to also make sure we enjoy music and not be in a constant search for the better. Enjoy your system - it sounds great as it is.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Tendaberry »

Hermann wrote: 2020-04-08 08:29 LP12 and the briks are still on mana and will probably remain so. There the setup works. Preamp, streamers and power supplies are now on Fraim and I like that very much.
Maybe you could borrow another Fraim or TimeTable to put your LP12 on and try?
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

I agree with Beck unreservedly, thank you very much.

I remember early times when we used to lie on the floor with speakers at our ears and listen to Pink Floyd, Hendrix, etc. Today I sit in front of my system and remember the intensity of those experiences. Pure music. At that point I'm back thanks to Karousel and changes in the setup.

The search for better has stopped with me 16 years ago. During that time I only changed the setup (bass problem), did some cable tests and upgraded the LP12.

Tendaberry wrote: 2020-04-08 13:15
Hermann wrote: 2020-04-08 08:29 LP12 and the briks are still on mana and will probably remain so. There the setup works. Preamp, streamers and power supplies are now on Fraim and I like that very much.
Maybe you could borrow another Fraim or TimeTable to put your LP12 on and try?
With my first LP12, which must have been around 1976, ideas for support also came. Ikea table was announced later and I never liked it. At that time we already constructed tables with spikes down and up with a coated wooden plate on top. The table was in use until I discovered the Mana Reference Table in 2002. Every attempt to improve the LP12 by changing the table failed. In my experience the Mana Ref table is the best. By the way, I had it on Fraim just before the rebuilding and found that I don't like it.

The same goes for the briks. Besides the original stand, I tried wooden boxes, stacks of paper and a lot more. Also here until Mana came. In my opinion they belong on mana stands.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by alan »

I had my first Briks in 1983 fed by nap 250 then nap 135. The back wall was made of concrete and the concrete floor covered with carpet, the Briks played well. Then when I moved the wall was plasterboard, the bass had no more energy; I balanced against the wall, decorative panels of compressed wood thick of 40mm, height 140cm x 120cm width; The Briks had found the bass that were missing. I moved again, now I have briks from 1990 with external Linn filter, I use 3 nap 250 naim active, sometimes also passive it is very good too, I tried with 6 x 135, but I prefer with 3x250.
Sorry for my expression, I use a French/English language translator.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Hello alan, thanks for your background.

Well I know that the wall behind the briks Bass I found again, although as written, not to the extent I was used to before. Sometimes there is a lack of pressure and this can really be the wall. At the moment I don't know. Anyway, I am currently in the process of changing more. Height from the floor, distance to each other etc. To cover the wall behind it is also a measure.

I never really liked the external crossover. Therefore I first installed the Falcons and then got 4 new original Linn crossovers some years ago. They are actually better than the Falcons.

Active? Ok, often heard with different Linn and Naim amps, but also with ML and others. They are really too many boxes for me, so I never pursued further.

I think in the coming months to solve the remaining problem.

P.S. I sometimes used DeepL for translation. My English is completely rusty.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by alan »

Good luck !
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Mr Pig »

Hi Hermann,

No idea how to fix your problem, just wanted to say hi :0)

Incidentally, I had my Briks on Mana stands and two Sound Bases each. I eventually removed all four Bases and use just the standard Mana Brik stands. While the extra levels gave more depth and information to the bass they robbed it of weight and power. I don't miss them at all.

Cheers,
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Hi, Mr. Pig. Nice to see you again after so many years. Hope you are well and welcome to the forum.

Yeah, the mana story. Unfortunately, I don't have the original stands anymore but I'm currently working on solving the bass problem. I have some ideas and the first one is being implemented these days. After all, I don't really believe in the announcement, briks need a solid wall in the background. I have partly made different experiences with this.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Mr Pig »

Hermann wrote: 2020-05-06 07:46Hi, Mr. Pig. Nice to see you again after so many years. Hope you are well and welcome to the forum.
Yes, I'm fine thank you. Turntable is on Phase fourteen now but is no longer an LP12. I have a Rega RP10.

How many levels are under your Briks? It used to be quite a lot?
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Hi Colin, I know you've migrated from LP12 to a Rega because I still read PFM sometimes.

Yeah, the mana thing. Actually, there are eight stages underneath plus the short briks stands. But I'm experimenting with that right now.

I've thrown out the stages underneath the electronics and bought Fraim. It's just that the last mana devices are more bad than good. Unfortunately I have a lot of them. Many of them work as single units, but they are hardly usable in a stack. The setup was a guessing game, which one fits together with which one etc...

Anyway, I'm trying to find a compromise between stages, Fraim and other supports. The brinks are on mobile stands since yesterday, which I built to find out where the best position is. Hope for insights.

Edit:

Forgot to mention the LP12, which is currently on phase 8, but with three stainless steel soudstages. There is also a 4 tier rack, which will be replaced when the LP12 is moved to another location. Then I can also use a short cable between SL and 552. At the moment the cable is 5m long.

The LP12 will then be on phase 13 or higer with a 2 tier stainless steel rack. SL/SC and Radikal will be on one frame.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Spannko »

Hermann wrote: 2020-02-17 10:30
As I am a professional, of course the AC range is the first thing I worked on. It is a 5x10qmm soldered directly into a power block. The wires are connected in a way that there is no "hirarchy". Two times plus and two times minus are connected in a way that they are soldered from both sides of the connector panel, so to speak in a "circle". So it does not matter where the plug is inserted. Both plus wire are in the distribution box on the same phase and fused with 35A. Hope this is explained understandably. Grounding, phase and connection are optimized by me, as this is my specialty.
A small schematic drawing may clarify this. (The earth is not considered in the drawing).

Powerblock.JPG

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Nevertheless, the digital section is separated from the analog section in the same way. But to be honest, it doesn't really matter whether the power supply for the NDS streamer is connected in the same block as the rest of the system or not.

During this time I experimented a lot with cables and always went back to the original. The Naims are now equipped with Powerlines, which has already given a significant boost in the bass alone. The Klimax Radikal doesn't like anything other than the original Linn cable.

Due to the fact that the Superline Phono is further from the preamp than usual, I had to find a cable for a power block that fits. Because Radikal and Supercap are connected to a second power block. Longer cables (radical and supercap) to the actual power block where the system is connected did not work. However, that shouldn't be the problem, because bass was also missing via the streamer or previously the CDS3.
Herman,

I’ve just come across this whilst looking for something else, so your setup may have changed since you posted this.

Did you try RtM’s suggestion of installing a single 10AWG/6mm2 cable, checked for direction, terminating in one socket?
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by HansW »

Hi Hermann,

Just saw this now and I havn’t read all the answers so appoologies if my suggestion has been mentioned by someone already.

From the drawing in your first post I noticed that the briks ate approx 280 cm from side walls. This is approx 1/3 of the width of the room and is position that minimises bass response (given that they are placed against the front wall). Try moving the speakers sideways, theoretically I believe the best position should be 1/4 of the distance from side walls. This may not hold in practice but I think it is worth experimenting.

The other position worth considering is the listening position. This is usually as important as the speaker position. As you have an alcove behind you you are not getting much bass reinforcement from the back wall. The second most bass reinforcing postion to sit, after sitting against the back wall. Is in the middle of the room (theoretically). Have you tried moving around in the room to see if you get better bass somewhere else. Again, it should be worth some experimenting.

Good luck

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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

A lot has happened in the meantime. The electronics are no longer on mana, but on Naim Racks. So there is enough space to place the LP12 with phono and power supply next to the preamplifier. Also the power strip is no longer needed.

The Briks are standing on movable wheels and are pushed as close as possible to the wall. This really brings bass, but still not enough to hear it in quiet passages.

But regarding your question, yes and no. Since the cable is about 20m long, it is not possible to check the direction. Also I know very well the setup, when a cable ends in a single socket and then is distributed with a block. For example, what Musicline offers, that is, point-like power block. We already had that 45 years ago.

In this apartment I changed the setup slightly by soldering two powerblocks directly to 10qmm cable. The previous picture shows it schematically. It is extended in that it is now two powerblocks. So I could try if a separate power block for the digital section would bring improvements.

Since the cable has 5 wires, one of them is also separately fused in the distribution, but on the same circuit. And indeed it is better not to use the digital section with analog electronics in the same powerblock.
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powerblock.jpg
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I paid special attention to the grounding, because Naim equipment is very sensitive to this. The entire range is measured and corresponds to ideal conditions. Short wires, not corroded.

At the moment everything is provisional, because I have to decide either to build a stone wall behind the briks or to clad the wall with Knauf Diamant plasterboard. These are made for acoustic conditions and are very hard and solid.

A lot to do, I would say...
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by V.A.MKD »

Hermann wrote: 2020-06-12 10:39 The Briks are standing on movable wheels and are pushed as close as possible to the wall. This really brings bass, but still not enough to hear it in quiet passages.

At the moment everything is provisional, because I have to decide either to build a stone wall behind the briks or to clad the wall with Knauf Diamant plasterboard. These are made for acoustic conditions and are very hard and solid.

A lot to do, I would say...
Hi Hermann,

Good to hear that you made step forward / improvement of the sound that make you happy ...
One more suggestion if it is OK, before make new wall ...

You already move speakers as close as possible to the wall and that give good result, Now, put Briks on the proper / original Linn Brik stand ..... not on wheels it's very ??? solution. This will be even better and give you the best possible sound with actual wall ... than you make final decision for new wall ...
Music First ...
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Sorry Vlado, I think that was a little misleading. Of course the briks do not stop on rolls, but are put back on mana. They are now mobile, since I recently built a brikmover. So I can keep the wall free for various tests from time to time.

Next week I will go to the hardware store to find the easiest way, plaster wall or stone. At the moment I prefer diamond knauf plaster wall. Just because it's very easy to fix them stable. If the experiment succeeds, I can still think about a stone wall.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Spannko »

My recommendation would be to install a simple, but musical, single cable 6mm2 radial, checked for direction, as recommended by Naim, RtM, Fredrik Ethernet al. Then live with it for at least a month before going back to your current setup.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Mhh... You mean lay another cable to the plant, through a reinforced concrete ceiling and two walls? That's simply not possible. When the setup was finished like in the picture, I tested some power strips, so only one plug was used. But I'm not sure if this is what you recommend.
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