Briks missing bass

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Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

I would like to use the knowledge of the community to possibly solve a problem with my briks. Components are:
LP12 Klimax, Superline, Supercap, Naim 552, ECS Prototype Amps (I preferred them to the NAP500), Isobariks. Everything is on Mana Racks and Soundstages.

Something about the history:
I've known the briks since they were released. The current pair is my second set, which I bought as good as new about 20 years ago. The owner didn't use them, which was understandable as he had three stereo systems worth more than 1 million German Mark (DM) and even more vinyl in hardly imaginable quantities.

Anyway, since then the Briks have been playing in my system in very different rooms over the years. Whether in a 16qm room, a 25 or 37qm room, they always played very well. By far the best result was a room, a loft with a size of 170qm and a ceiling about 11m high.

My current room is about 50qm large. The ceiling is 4,5m high on the left side and 4m on the other side. And in this room bass is simply missing. Not that it is not there, there is no pressure and with silent music it is almost not to hear. It's like some low frequencies are filtered out. I don't know how else to explain it.

If you play music with a lot of bass, e.g. Nils Pepper Molver - Kmer, you can hear it clearly, very deep and clean when the volume is right. Nevertheless the relation to the mids and trebles is not correct. The room itself is actually not very bright and has hardly any reverberation. The wall behind the briks is not a solid wall, the floor is covered with stone plates. Actually, these should be good conditions, but unfortunately there is a lack of bass.

Originally external crossovers were installed, then internal Falcons and about 6 years ago I had the opportunity to buy original and new internal Linn crossovers. But since we live in this flat (~13 years) there is no bass pressure. All measures, e.g. using the LEDE (Live End Dead End) method, did not lead to a satisfying result. In the meantime I have tried some room acoustics, but without any significant improvement. Apart from the bass problem, the stereo system plays incredibly musical and it is easy to hear when, for example, the midrange drivers are changed by 0.1 mN with the torque wrench.

I now have the opportunity to purchase a good pair of Isobariks from the last series, which uses external crossovers. And with that I am faced with the question should I or should I not...

Maybe it's not the briks, but the room is so bad that this is the first one they don't play in. But maybe someone has further ideas.

I would also like to mention that I have a lot of experience with stereo systems and have worked professionally with electrics. That means of course, all soldering work is done accordingly, as well as the connections of the drivers to the internal crossovers of briks are correct and certainly been checked more than three times.

Any hint will be very welcome. Thanks in advance
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by beck »

I think the not solid wall is the problem. I have little experience in these matters so do hear other suggestions out before doing anything.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Linntek »

I have pretty much the same problem in my room. Almost identical size and listening position. I have some huge dips in my listening position right there where you would like kick drums etc. give some physical effect. Does the bass missing everywhere in the room?
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by V.A.MKD »

beck wrote: 2020-02-16 11:12 I think the not solid wall is the problem. I have little experience in these matters so do hear other suggestions out before doing anything.
+1, not solid wall, behind the briks.

All Linn designs, from that period, need solid wall behind the speakers, Briks, Sara, Kan Kan, ... :)
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What Has Changed?

Post by Ron The Mon »

Hermann,
Has the lack of deep bass happened since day one in this room?

Has there been any other changes at all in your system preceding this? I have followed your posts since back in the Mana days and know you are quite fastidious and consistent in your set-ups.

If everything is exactly the same from your last room, that only leaves two things; the room itself acoustically, and your AC. Vlado and beck are barking up the wrong tree as neither of them has experience with Isobariks. I have mine against an inside wall and the bass is thunderous. When I was recently at Tony Tune-age's house, his Isobariks were anemic in the bass. My active Kan system had far more bass. Tony has his power amp into one outlet and the rest of the system into a power strip into another. This is bad. It appeared neither outlet was a dedicated run back to the breaker box either. To top it off, electrical power cables are directional. Not only does the cable sound better oriented properly, the proper orientation always results in deeper bass.

You and Mister Tune-age have similar systems in that they are Klimax LP12s into a great phono stage, into a state of the art pre-amp and monster power-amp powering current hungry same-vintage Isobariks. To be clear Tony's hi-fi sounds really, really good. It just has very weak bass.

The answer is getting dedicated AC distribution to your hi-fi. Use a 30 amp cable (10AWG equivalent) with a single dedicated plug at the hi-fi end. Listen to the cable in both directions before permanent install to determine direction. Use a power strip with equipment plugged in the order recommended by Fredrik Lejonklou here. At the breaker box end, be sure the hi-fi is located on the "live" (or "hot") buss nearest the inlet. Same goes for neutral and/or ground busses. Make sure the breaker box is directly grounded to a buried ground stake driven at least 3 meters into the ground outside your home in an area which stays moist. As to type of breakers or fuses, listen and do what is correct to local electrical codes. Some brands sound better.

I would guess you have been lucky previously with power distribution.

A few questions:
Are your Isobariks on Mana? Lower to the floor equals more bass.

Have you experimented with the torques recommended by Tom O'Keefe on a previous thread?

Go for the newer Isobariks regardless, as they sound better. The outboard crossover is more efficient, easing the load on your power-amp as well. That may help improve bass as well as sounding better.

What is the distance apart of your Isobariks? Mine are exactly 2 meters apart, center-to-center. The farther Isobariks are apart, the better they sound; including bass depth. [edit: I have further studied your diagram, (which I should have done better before posting) and concluded that is not your problem. It may help to separate the Isobariks further, but it is not your bass problem]

[edit: What is "Nils Pepper Molver - Kmer"?!?]

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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by kampak »

I think its a typo...

Nils Petter Molvær „Khmer“

a quite famous ECM album, famous for bass, that is!
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Thank you very much for your ideas and suggestions. I know about Linn's recommendation for a solid wall behind the older speakers. I'm not sure if this is right in every case, because in the former big room the briks were about 1m away from the back wall. However, that could really be the problem.

@Ron The Mon
Thank you very much for your comments.

You've been very observant about my setup. I'm very conservative and don't like to change. But about your questions.
The problem actually arose with this room. And as described, the crossover was changed and other things were tried which did not lead to a satisfying result.

As I am a professional, of course the AC range is the first thing I worked on. It is a 5x10qmm cable soldered directly into a power block. The wires are connected in a way that there is no "hirarchy". Two times plus and two times minus are connected in a way that they are soldered from both sides of the connector panel, so to speak in a "circle". So it does not matter where the plug is inserted. Both plus wire are in the distribution box on the same phase and fused with 35A. Hope this is explained understandably. Grounding, phase and connection are optimized by me, as this is my specialty.
A small schematic drawing may clarify this. (The earth is not considered in the drawing)
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Powerblock.JPG
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Nevertheless, the digital section is separated from the analog section in the same way. But to be honest, it doesn't really matter whether the power supply for the NDS streamer is connected in the same block as the rest of the system or not.

During this time I experimented a lot with cables and always went back to the original. The Naims are now equipped with Powerlines, which has already given a significant boost in the bass alone. The Klimax Radikal doesn't like anything other than the original Linn cable.

Due to the fact that the Superline Phono is further from the preamp than usual, I had to find a cable for a power block that fits. Because Radikal and Supercap are connected to a second power block. Longer cables (radical and supercap) to the actual power block where the system is connected did not work. However, that shouldn't be the problem, because bass was also missing via the streamer or previously the CDS3.

Everything is still on mana and yes, the briks are a bit lower now, meaning 8 stages instead of 11, but that doesn't help, even if they are directly on the floor or as high as the original stands.

Well, everything is worked on with the torque wrench and also optimized. So it is possible to hear changes in 0.1 mN steps. The briks should be pretty much one of the last, serial number is 8275/6. I know about the distance between briks. Everything between 2m and 2.8m center to center works. Here, 2.48m between the briks is just the right distance.


Thanks for the correction kampak . Really good music with extremely deep bass.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Linntek wrote: 2020-02-16 14:31 I have pretty much the same problem in my room. Almost identical size and listening position. I have some huge dips in my listening position right there where you would like kick drums etc. give some physical effect. Does the bass missing everywhere in the room?
That describes it pretty well. There's a lot of bass in one corner but no bass in the other. But when I move back and forth from the listening position, little or nothing changes. Anyway, at the back where the seating area is, there's bass to be heard, even if not with the pressure I'd like. So this was my first approach. I built some absorbers and diffusers, but unfortunately without success.
When I was recently at Tony Tune-age's house, his Isobariks were anemic in the bass. My active Kan system had far more bass.
Unfortunately this is also the case when playing my little Presonus Eris E4.5. The bass seems to be deeper, even if it actually isn't.
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Re: What Has Changed?

Post by V.A.MKD »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-02-17 03:50 Vlado and beck are barking up the wrong tree as neither of them has experience with Isobariks.
Hahahahahaa ... You are right, but partly. I have experience, theoretical and as well in practices ... :-)))

Story go like this ... 20+ years ago ...

My HiFi friend decide to go in London for Study and Business. He have to stay 2-3 years and by the way to visit retail HiFi shops and to buy stereo system on the basis on listening ...
He finish everything including buying system and came back to Skopje. You know when something new came everybody is ... He tells me that he buy complete Linn System LP12 (Top spec), Briks and ... no Naim??? Yes LK1/LK2 was fresh new products ... was answer. I ask when he plan to install it ... for weekend to have more time or ... answer was again no, Linn Specialist from factory will came and he will install it, OK good it was also new for me ...
Time past, several weeks and one day he call me to help him about installation, since Linn Specialist arrived ... I was in 2-3 seconds at his house, park the car and enter in his yard ... :-))) I find my friend cutting wooden parquet corner edge (or what is the name), I immediately start with jokes ... if you need help for parquet installation tell me I will help you, don't need to ... with Linn Specialist, he just look at me and I know something is happening ... We finish with cutting and enter in his living room, I see one person doing something with screws on LP12 and again I start with jokes, if some screw left you I will need for ... The person was quiet and I see something is ... Than introductions and ...
That is my theoretical experience :-) directly from Linn as close as possible to the wall (solid as much as possible ... brick wall) and practical experience cutting wooden ... to install Briks close to the wall, I never owned, live with Briks, set-up or adjusted ... :-))) just enjoy in music in complete Linn system ...
Specialist do the job perfectly. Sound was ... and improved in next weeks ...
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Defender »

Hermann wrote: 2020-02-17 10:30
As I am a professional, of course the AC range is the first thing I worked on. It is a 5x10qmm cable soldered directly into a power block. The wires are connected in a way that there is no "hirarchy". Two times plus and two times minus are connected in a way that they are soldered from both sides of the connector panel, so to speak in a "circle". So it does not matter where the plug is inserted. Both plus wire are in the distribution box on the same phase and fused with 35A. Hope this is explained understandably. Grounding, phase and connection are optimized by me, as this is my specialty.
A small schematic drawing may clarify this. (The earth is not considered in the drawing)
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Powerblock.JPG

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I think I understand what you did (but maybe I didn’t) but I am not sure why you think that your sockets have no hierarchy. I think your closest socket to the circuit box is still the most important.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Actually, you're right, with the outer two it should sound better somehow, if source and pre are connected there. But it's not, though. Radikal/Supercap is plugged in first on one side, Preamp on the other side, Poweramp following in the middle. Even if these swapped, poweramps on the outside, the others on the inside, there is no audible difference.

This is different with the second power block, which is not wired in this way (as shown in the picture). The Radikal is plugged in first, then the supercap. Here you can actually hear a small difference when you change order, so Supercap first.

The ideal situation would be if all cables of the individual components come together at one point, i.e. the respective wires are soldered in a star shape. I think the Powerigel from MusikLine Germany follows this idea, others surely do too.

My friends and I experimented with this idea more than 40 years ago. However, I always found it annoying to solder the cables together, so I realized it in this way, which certainly does not really correspond to the ideal of a star-shaped arrangement. It is more flexible and that was important to me.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by nmakowsk »

My experience with my 1992 Briks has taught me that when the speakers can't make it against the back walls go for the side walls. My pair are located just a couple inches from side walls in my room. I found that right up against the walls made the bass overly thick and poorly defined. Just a couple inches away gets the room excited and sounds tuneful. I would guess the speakers are probably 7 feet apart but can measure that in meters if anyone needs that. Looking at your room diagram, you might have the ability to change up your system setup against a different wall which might give you the bass response you are looking for. Also, I wired a 12 gauge dedicated power circuit to my hifi when I had the walls apart which resulted in small improvements. For this I didn't think about listening for wire direction changes but it still sounds better than a normal outlet in the room.
LP12/Kar/ARad1/Kore/Ekos SE1/NOKTable/Adikt/Slipsik 8.0/Giella Pi 1.2/Tundra Stereo 2.2/1992 Briks
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Thank you very much for your thoughts and hints.

Unfortunately I see no other possibility in this room than to use only the current space. Opposite in the area of the seating group it is unfortunately not possible because of the floor. The podest hides over the whole length and about 1.5m wide a big cut in the floor, which is covered with planks. A crane is mounted above this area. So it is not possible to set up the briks there. The podest was necessary so that stone flooring could be laid outside.

The only solution is probably to move downstairs under the living room. That romm is over 150 square meters large and was previously used as my photo studio. Since I am a pensioner now, it is available. However, it has to be completely rebuilt and that is still going on. The room is ideal because there are only very thick brick walls.

Regarding a dedicated power circuit, that was always the first action after a move. Many smiled at the time and some of them came and asked for a separate cable and fuse for their hifi. So I smiled quietly in each case.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Ron The Mon »

Hermann wrote: 2020-02-18 13:23 Thank you very much for your thoughts and hints.

Regarding a dedicated power circuit, that was always the first action after a move. Many smiled at the time and some of them came and asked for a separate cable and fuse for their hifi. So I smiled quietly in each case.
Hermann,
I'm very happy to not have helped you. You're welcome.

Thanks for the tip about Nils Petter Molvær Khmer. What a great record! I've listened to it twice in a row on Spotify and the recording quality is fantastic. It reminds me of Miles Davis' Tutu and George Duke's 101 North album. It is now on my used LPs to buy search list. I put it in my Amazon shopping cart as well as it's still available.

Do you live anywhere near Marcel's café/bar? I'll be needing a place to stay and it sounds like you have a spare room.

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Re: What Has Changed?

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-02-17 03:50When I was recently at Tony Tune-age's house, his Isobariks were anemic in the bass. My active Kan system had far more bass. Tony has his power amp into one outlet and the rest of the system into a power strip into another. This is bad. It appeared neither outlet was a dedicated run back to the breaker box either. To top it off, electrical power cables are directional. Not only does the cable sound better oriented properly, the proper orientation always results in deeper bass.

You and Mister Tune-age have similar systems in that they are Klimax LP12s into a great phono stage, into a state of the art pre-amp and monster power-amp powering current hungry same-vintage Isobariks. To be clear Tony's hi-fi sounds really, really good. It just has very weak bass.
Good evening Ron,

I didn't realize you were a part time comedian, but don't quit your day job. However, on the serious side my speakers are not anemic in the bass, and there are no problems with the electrical outlets or anything else in my system. I really don't understand you Ron, maybe you just had one drink too many - eh?
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Ace of Base

Post by Ron The Mon »

Tony Tune-age wrote: 2020-02-19 01:33 ...my speakers are not anemic in the bass, and there are no problems with the electrical outlets or anything else in my system.
Tony,
I'm sorry I didn't get to hear your hi-fi longer and inspect its' faults further and give you improvement recommendations. When was the last time you had someone climb your telephone poles inspecting your grounding systems?

Your hi-fi has the weakest bass I've ever heard from Isobariks. Isobariks are known for deep bass. I invited you personally, and online, to hear my Isobarik system. I have heard over a dozen Isobarik systems in peoples homes, including three active. Yours are anemic. This is not meant as an insult and doesn't reflect upon you. I am now publicly inviting you to spend a weekend at my home and/or boat this Summer for live and recorded music. I can also personally improve your hi-fi substantially for less than $3000.

I will never forget Tom fiddling with your AC cords and not able to get your hi-fi to work. The two of you messed around behind your rack getting the cables to sit just right before the power even came on. To me, that is unacceptable. It seems you know a guy in the hi-fi cable business who sold you your cable system. I have heard these types of cables before and they are snake oil.

I'd advise you to buy three of the new Lejonklou cables and a proper six-way. It will cost you less than $200. When that sounds better than what you have, we can talk again.

The bottom line is you need a proper AC distribution system to your hi-fi. Your current one is less than mediocre.

To be clear, I don't speak for Tom O'Keefe (or Overture Audio) in any way, make money off him, or get discounts. Tom has not spoken bad about you in any manner, except in your kitchen to you about your Khan sub-chassis. I have never heard a Khan (now discontinued because of lack of sales) other than yours.

It seems you are more funny in-person and I more funny online. Hopefully we are both in pursuit of the same result, which is a superb home hi-fi. You have a wonderful hi-fi (except for weak bass). My hi-fi has improved substantially in the past year mostly because of members advice here. Let's combine forces and better enjoy hi-fi with 2020 foresight.

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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Tony Tune-age »

The wiring is fine, outlets are connected to the breaker box, grounding is fine, and all wiring is relatively new - which means it meets modern day code. Again, my speakers are not bass weak. There is no electrical issue in my house, and don't give me your opinion about how inadequate my electrical wiring is.

I don't appreciate your comments at all, they are wrong and out of place!
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

@Ron The Moon
Mhh... since English is not my nativ language, I often use DeepL for translation. Is your last comment about me meant as a joke?

Marcel's café/bar??
As you may notice, I live in Germany and you in Detroit. But if you should ever be near Düsseldorf or Cologne, you are welcome to come along.

But back to the bass problem. I still don't know why e.g. Khmer (and some more) shows an unbelievable deep bass but other music doesn't even show bass at all. Is this really explained by the plaster wall behind the briks? A so-called "standing wave" is definitely not there. Because then you should be able to hear the bass by moving back and forth.

I often read that the Naim Ovator S600 is a good replacement for the isobarik. Does anyone have any experience with it?
Last edited by Hermann on 2020-02-20 12:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by V.A.MKD »

Hermann wrote: 2020-02-20 12:28
I often read that the Naim Ovator S600 is a good replacement for the isobaric. Does anyone have any experience with it?
This is interesting issue ... S600 vs Briks ...
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

My problem is really that I have three good offers, one isobarik with external crossover and two S600 and all for a quite reasonable price. Demo at home is excluded. Only the two S600 outside is possible with much effort.
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Re: Briks missing bass

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Hermann wrote: 2020-02-20 12:47 My problem is really that I have three good offers, one isobarik with external crossover and two S600 and all for a quite reasonable price. Demo at home is excluded. Only the two S600 outside is possible with much effort.
Buy both Isobarik and S600. Compare. Post clips. Sell the set you dislike the most. :-)
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by V.A.MKD »

beck wrote: 2020-02-20 12:51
Hermann wrote: 2020-02-20 12:47 My problem is really that I have three good offers, one isobarik with external crossover and two S600 and all for a quite reasonable price. Demo at home is excluded. Only the two S600 outside is possible with much effort.
Buy both Isobarik and S600. Compare. Post clips. Sell the set you dislike the most. :-)
OR Set you dislike, use for digital ... :-)
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Hermann »

Well Beck ;-)

Of course, this is somehow also my reasoning. But both pairs of Ovator S600 have been on offer for years and are therefore almost not for sale. With both providers I have been on the phone for a long time and yes, they are good offers. In addition, the dealer is honest and makes it clear that the Ovator is very room-dependent. So I would have to buy first and then try it... No return possible.

And to exchange briks for briks because of the external crossover doesn't make much sense, because obviously the plaster wall behind turns out to be the cause.

Next week, if everything goes well, I'll hear the S600 at the dealer's.

Clips will follow...
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by tokenbrit »

Hermann wrote: 2020-02-20 13:58
Next week, if everything goes well, I'll hear the S600 at the dealer's.

Clips will follow...
Will you take your 'briks with you for comparison at the dealers? Curious whether you'd find your missing bass...
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Re: Briks missing bass

Post by Tony Tune-age »

tokenbrit wrote: 2020-02-20 15:44Will you take your 'briks with you for comparison at the dealers? Curious whether you'd find your missing bass...
That is a really good idea, although it would require a lot of heavy lifting.

Cheers
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