Brikin' It !

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-03-03 23:21Quite a conundrum, though, since a 110 can't drive Isobariks. ;-)
I know - strange magic! It’s not even being relieved of its preamp powering duties.

Were you quite happy with your 110 driving them? These would have been earlier models I guess, which I’m told are harder to drive.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by beck »

tokenbrit wrote: 2020-03-03 23:45
Conundrum? Tundra time! ;)
Lejonklou’s new slogan:

Tundra time. It’s time for Tundra! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-04 00:08Were you quite happy with your 110 driving them? These would have been earlier models I guess, which I’m told are harder to drive.
"Hard to drive" is nearly always nonsense. People just like saying that, it makes them sound experienced.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-03-04 09:33
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-04 00:08Were you quite happy with your 110 driving them? These would have been earlier models I guess, which I’m told are harder to drive.
"Hard to drive" is nearly always nonsense. People just like saying that, it makes them sound experienced.
What’s often said is that if a speakers impedance drops to 2 Ohms, then it would be hard(er) to drive, compared to a speaker which drops to 6 Ohms?

Are you suggesting that it’s not a “hard to drive” problem, but “a poor amplifier cannot deliver power linearly down to 2 Ohms” kind of problem. Or something else?
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2020-03-04 10:39What’s often said is that if a speakers impedance drops to 2 Ohms, then it would be hard(er) to drive, compared to a speaker which drops to 6 Ohms?

Are you suggesting that it’s not a “hard to drive” problem, but “a poor amplifier cannot deliver power linearly down to 2 Ohms” kind of problem. Or something else?
Maybe. But difficult phase angles (capacitive and inductive loads) can present more trouble than a low resistive load.

More importantly, I'm saying that:
• What we're interested in is the practical result when an amplifier is driving a speaker. Such as: Is the result musical? Does it sound effortless or strained? Does it play loud enough?
• The correlation between the output power of an amplifier and the practical result is very poor.
• There is no short cut to practical testing, therefore numbers don't provide any answers.

What initially made me aware of the "difficult to drive" hyperbole was when I worked in retail in the early 90's and distributors presented their top speaker models to us, often claiming they were very difficult to drive and requiring one of their most expensive and powerful amplifiers. When we were unimpressed by the combination (which was often the case), we'd hook up one of our cheapest and least powerful amps and without exception that would sound far better and play loud enough. For instance a Creek or an Aura Z1.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Spannko »

Thanks.

Do you think that an amplifiers ability to double its power output as the load halves is important, or it just another bit of marketing speak?
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2020-03-04 13:06 Do you think that an amplifiers ability to double its power output as the load halves is important, or it just another bit of marketing speak?
I think it's a very crude figure. As mentioned, what happens when the load isn't primarily resistive is more interesting. Then again, those numbers don't say anything about whether the amplifier sounds musical or even powerful.

For instance, if the amplifier changes its sound character while the load falls, the power will not feel effortless.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-03-04 14:04
Spannko wrote: 2020-03-04 13:06 Do you think that an amplifiers ability to double its power output as the load halves is important, or it just another bit of marketing speak?
I think it's a very crude figure. As mentioned, what happens when the load isn't primarily resistive is more interesting. Then again, those numbers don't say anything about whether the amplifier sounds musical or even powerful.

For instance, if the amplifier changes its sound character while the load falls, the power will not feel effortless.
Excellent, thank you. I can’t say I understand it all though. Once I get beyond Ohms law and into the realms of phase angles, and such like, I’m totally flummoxed! There’s obviously much more to audio amplifier design than most engineers appreciate. To give an example, reading about rectifier diode selection on the diy HiFi forums, the consensus is that diodes don’t have a characteristic sound quality, and woe betide anyone who suggests otherwise!
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote: 2020-03-03 20:54 One more thing: never waist a good clip. We cannot get enough (I can never get enough). :-)
Someone outside the forum wanted to hear double bass.

If I wasn't such a jazz heathen then I'd have come up with something better than pop songs...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbmktj5xsej2e ... 2.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6uk957im053jq ... 0.MOV?dl=0

What I don't understand is why the deep bass sounds nothing like a sub you hear in a home or public cinema. It seems to be going as low.

EDIT:
Got fed up with Van shouting at me (cold Radikal/Urika but still much kinder on my ears) - kind of inevitable though:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ysihgulwuo0st ... D.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qwoz3amu9tusn ... D.MOV?dl=0

And one from earlier today:
Valhalla LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqhjxciku10w7 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Radikal LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dyj429yhzr78m ... D.MOV?dl=0
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by lejonklou »

Ten times better with the Radikal LP12!

Frankly I thought the timing was lacking seriously with the old LP12. Couldn't enjoy any of the (for me well known) songs.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Spannko »

Hmm. Very interesting charlie1, yet again! I think I can hear why you enjoy listening to your Valhallad deck, compared to your Radikalised deck, and maybe why you like listening to your Radikalised deck when the Valhallad deck has exhausted you! The RD has a much nicer sound, but maybe not quite as musical/tuneful as the VD? Am I right in thinking that you have a pre-circus bearing in your VD and a Cirkus in your RD?
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote: 2020-03-05 00:54 Am I right in thinking that you have a pre-circus bearing in your VD and a Cirkus in your RD?
No, it's also pre-Cirkus with steel sub-chassis. I sold the Keel several months ago.

I will check out the new one although not sure how I'm gonna determine whether it's for me or not. My dealer will likely dem Cirkus/Keel vs Carousel/Keel but not pre-Cirkus/SS vs Carousel/SS. Although exciting, I wouldn't be all that surprised if I'm still a pre-Cirkus man. There are a few of us but not many :) I can't explain what it is.
Spannko wrote: 2020-03-05 00:54 I think I can hear why you enjoy listening to your Valhallad deck, compared to your Radikalised deck, and maybe why you like listening to your Radikalised deck when the Valhallad deck has exhausted you!
Can you articulate what you're hearing?

Yes, since I'm confessing about bearings, I may as well confess that even when both decks are fitted with the pre-Cirkus bearing, I don't find the Radikal deck better in all respects. I realise that makes me an oddball. There's still 'something' the Valhalla deck does better to my ears. It's like there is more glue between the musicians. The upgrades that clean up the sound and make it more musical in many ways also seem to remove some of the glue or syncapation or harmony or something between instruments, but I'm clutching at straws since I don't really understand what's going on. If my dealer hadn't built both decks then I'd be thinking setup but I really don't think it's that.

I experience something similar when comparing the original unserviced NAC12 cards to the serviced NAC32.5 cards. It's never win-win for one set of cards.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Tendaberry »

I think it's a case of the pre-Cirkus bearing + Valhalla not resolving enough and smearing what's actually happening when the musicians play. They may therefore sound tighter than they actually are, or at least you interpret it that way.
I know I couldn't give up Cirkus (well, I will for Karousel), Keel and Radikal. But it's your system and the old-school sound is very charming, too :-)
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Charlie1 »

You could be right, although if that was the case, there are plenty of low end systems or vintage gear that smears the sound and doesn't do it as much for me.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-05 09:22
Spannko wrote: 2020-03-05 00:54 I think I can hear why you enjoy listening to your Valhallad deck, compared to your Radikalised deck, and maybe why you like listening to your Radikalised deck when the Valhallad deck has exhausted you!
Can you articulate what you're hearing?
To me, the “sound” of your RadLP12 is quite a big improvement over the ValLP12, and I can imagine that the VLP12 could get a bit tiresome on anything but the best sounding albums. However, buried in all the noise, there appears to be a degree of musicality in the VLP12 which isn’t present to the same degree in the RadLP12. For example, it feels easier to hear the tune played on guitars deep in the mix, whereas on the RadLP12 the guitars are easily audible but not quite so tuneful. I feel that the guitars are just a little bit more integrated with the rest of the music (on the VLP12) resulting in what appears to be a (very slightly) tighter musical performance compared to the RadLP12.

I’m not too familiar with the Radikal, so I’ve no idea whether what I think I’m hearing is typical of the Radikal, or due to something else.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by AlbannachFE »

On a quick listen, I prefer the Valhalla LP12; a bit less controlled and less refined, but swings better, and is more engaging musically, to my ears. The Radikal LP12 seems a bit 'matter of fact', and the music doesn't really 'speak to me' as much.

Again, this is through crappy laptop speakers, so I'll see if headphone listening changes my opinion.

BTW, Charlie1 - with the Vahalla deck, what's the phono stage?



(FWIW, I also preferred pre-Cirkus to Cirkus, back in the day)
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks both for your input.
AlbannachFE wrote: 2020-03-05 16:19BTW, Charlie1 - with the Vahalla deck, what's the phono stage?
Just the NAC12
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by AlbannachFE »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-05 16:21
AlbannachFE wrote: 2020-03-05 16:19BTW, Charlie1 - with the Vahalla deck, what's the phono stage?
Just the NAC12
That might be part of the reason for my (apparent) preference, as Linn's amplification has never really 'hit the spot' for me.

edit: It's Urika with the Radikal?
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Linntek »

Spannko wrote: 2020-03-04 13:06 Thanks.

Do you think that an amplifiers ability to double its power output as the load halves is important, or it just another bit of marketing speak?
You can’t use the double power/half load to anything. Any amplifier can do that.
Tundra: 35 watts 8 ohm and 70 watts 4 ohm. Nothing wrong with these specs. All true.
But in theory the clipping power could be 60 watts 8 ohm and 70 watts 4 ohm. These numbers might cause some concern.
Difficult load depends on the frequency. If above 1-2 kHz the voltage isn’t that high(current and power will be low). If we talk 2 ohm at 50-200 hz it will probably be a difficult load. Difficult loads often appears at crossover frequencies. Difficult phase angles does not require more current from the amplifier. The current will be the same as if it was pure resistive. Voltage and current will just be out of phase, more heat dissipated.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Charlie1 »

AlbannachFE wrote: 2020-03-05 16:23 edit: It's Urika with the Radikal?
Yep
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by V.A.MKD »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-05 17:45
AlbannachFE wrote: 2020-03-05 16:23 edit: It's Urika with the Radikal?
Yep
Hi Charlie1,
Interesting things about your system ...

Is it possible to post in "Me and My System" in details ... info about your system ... :-)
Music First ...
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by V.A.MKD »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-04 18:08
beck wrote: 2020-03-03 20:54 One more thing: never waist a good clip. We cannot get enough (I can never get enough). :-)
And one from earlier today:
Valhalla LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqhjxciku10w7 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Radikal LP12: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dyj429yhzr78m ... D.MOV?dl=0
Radical LP12 is much more musical ...
Even on the Laptop & Headphones ... I just can imagine how it is in live in room ... :-)))
Music First ...
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Charlie1 »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-03-05 18:00 Is it possible to post in "Me and My System" in details ... info about your system ... :-)
I'd be updating it about 3 times a day!! ;)
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-03-05 18:11 Radical LP12 is much more musical ...
Even on the Laptop & Headphones ... I just can imagine how it is in live in room ... :-)))
Thanks - it's a bit better today (warmed up) but the fundamentals remain as per the clips. Glad you like it. I wish I was like you and most folks that hear only benefits to the newer components.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by ThomasOK »

Since you are also listening to a Urika vs the MC cards on the NAC12, plus your Radikal doesn't have a Cirkus bearing (which wouldn't be my choice) there are a number of factors for what people are hearing.
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Re: Brikin' It !

Post by Spannko »

Linntek wrote: 2020-03-05 17:34
Spannko wrote: 2020-03-04 13:06 Thanks.

Do you think that an amplifiers ability to double its power output as the load halves is important, or it just another bit of marketing speak?
You can’t use the double power/half load to anything. Any amplifier can do that.
Tundra: 35 watts 8 ohm and 70 watts 4 ohm. Nothing wrong with these specs. All true.
But in theory the clipping power could be 60 watts 8 ohm and 70 watts 4 ohm. These numbers might cause some concern.
Difficult load depends on the frequency. If above 1-2 kHz the voltage isn’t that high(current and power will be low). If we talk 2 ohm at 50-200 hz it will probably be a difficult load. Difficult loads often appears at crossover frequencies. Difficult phase angles does not require more current from the amplifier. The current will be the same as if it was pure resistive. Voltage and current will just be out of phase, more heat dissipated.
Thanks Linntek. As usual, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing”, and there’s clearly so much I don’t understand, but I must admit, curiosity often gets the better of me and lures me not areas I really should avoid!
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