Remembering Julian Vereker

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Post Reply
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3172
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-01-14 11:30

Last edited by Charlie1 on 2020-01-14 17:24, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 290
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-01-14 14:40

Great person ...
He left behind him a lot ...
After many years still enjoying Nait 2 (olive)...
Music First ...
Vlado

Ron The Mon
Active member
Active member
Posts: 194
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Ron The Mon » 2020-01-14 22:10

I learned more about hi-fi in one hour with Julian Vereker than I did with almost all other designers/engineers combined in my life. He was an original.

Ron The Mon

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4649
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by lejonklou » 2020-01-14 23:08

A HiFi hero and a pioneer.

I'm really sorry I never met him.

Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 937
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Spannko » 2020-01-15 00:19

It’s great to see him looking totally contented with life sitting in the cathedral just about to make a recording. The Nait 1 in particular will always be considered a design classic, ensuring that he’ll never be forgotten.

User avatar
vicdiaz
Active member
Active member
Posts: 228
Joined: 2007-02-06 04:37
Location: Trujillo Alto, PR U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by vicdiaz » 2020-01-15 04:09

Met him once at CES in the mid 80's. Just a genius. I still enjoy an Olive Naim system as my office setup.
Vic
Ivor's "Tune-Method Seminar" Alumni

AlbannachFE
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: 2017-12-09 14:43
Location: Scotland.

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by AlbannachFE » 2020-01-17 00:34

A true visionary, whose interest was the reproduction of music (which you'd think would be the norm for Hi-Fi, but, IME, isn't),

I'm still using JV era Naim to this day, in preference to anything else that I've heard (including modern Naim).

Sadly, I never had the pleasure of meeting the great man, who left us far too soon. :-(

Per A
Active member
Active member
Posts: 159
Joined: 2007-08-13 10:10

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Per A » 2020-01-27 06:46

I am the happy owner of a Nait 5 and a Brompton S2 so I have two very good reasons to thank Mr Vereker.

FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 313
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-27 18:36

I wish Naim had been a part of my musical journey. Everything I've read was positive - Mr. Vereker has left a great legacy.

My audio journey went from Eagle, Sugden, Cyrus to Linn. I feel like I missed out on Naim.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.

Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 623
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Lego » 2020-01-30 15:33

Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-01-14 22:10
I learned more about hi-fi in one hour with Julian Vereker than I did with almost all other designers/engineers combined in my life. He was an original.

Ron The Mon
What did you learn RTM?
I know that tune

Ron The Mon
Active member
Active member
Posts: 194
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Ron The Mon » 2020-02-07 03:21

Lego wrote:
2020-01-30 15:33
Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-01-14 22:10
I learned more about hi-fi in one hour with Julian Vereker than I did with almost all other designers/engineers combined in my life. He was an original.

Ron The Mon
What did you learn RTM?
I did not write my above statement to be challenged. It was simply an homage.

The truth is there have been very few hi-fi innovators. VERY few.

I spent far more time (over several years) than one hour with Julian. Below is just one excerpt.

Around 1984, Naim released upgrades for their NAC32 and 42 preamps. I was the manager of the number-one Linn/Naim hi-fi shop in the United States. I was so cocky and awesome, I took our demo NAC32 and modded it myself to "/5" status. Let's face it; I was so clever and persnickety, my mods would be equal to Julian's. Probably better, in fact.

Then Chris West and Mark Tucker from Naim came to our shop for a demo to prove the Linn LK amps were inferior. That night, the best amp I ever heard in my life at that time turned out to be a Naim NAC42/NAP140. The same NAC42 with a NAP90 was a close second.

How could this be?

A month or three later I had a chat with Julian. He explained ground loops, ground planes, and star earthing to me. Not in a demeaning way, but matter-of-factly. It turns out, the original Naim NAC12/22/32/42 pre-amps were faulty in design; not truly star-earthed. The volume and balance potentiometers had their grounds tied together. The only difference between a Naim NAC32 and 32/5 is separation of the pot grounds. That is it!!!!!

If you compare a 42 and 42/5 into a NAP140, the musical difference is quite large. Yet the only difference is two additional ground paths!

Unfortunately, Naim improved their preamps at the same time as the Hi-Cap. Many assumed, even today, the improvements by Naim were from the power supply. Not true!!

On this very forum, member Charlie1 has been stating a Naim 12/110 is better sounding than a 32/HiCap/250. His demos prove that, but the provenance of the amps are not shown completely. A 32/42 which has been "jumped" to provide "dual-voltage" is inadequate. It is not the dual-voltage but the proper grounding which is required.

Julian explained to me there were too may variations of the model 12 pre-amp to provide an upgrade. The NAC12 in fact has all four volume and balance grounds tied together and run back to star-earth as one connection. Using this pre-amp with a HiCap will provide no sonic improvement. In fact, it will sound worse with a HiCap.

One of the best amps I've ever heard to this day is a NAC12/NAP90 combo. The 90 is exactly a Nait power-amp only circuit in it's own box with a 24V pre-amp supply added. If you like a Nait/Nait2, try the 12/90 combo. WOW!

After hearing a 12/90 in my own hi-fi with an LP12 and Kans, it knocked me out! It sounded far better than a Linn LK1/LK2.

Charlie1 spends far more time on hi-fi forums than I do, and one of the forums he frequents is one I swore I would never post on again because the forum owner allowed moderators to besmirch me in very nasty personal ways. As such, I won't mention the place but there are currently three former Naim employees who promote themselves and their current hi-fi companies as improving upon Naim (meaning Julian Vereker).

Yet not one of those guys even properly understands "star-grounding" of Naim or earth-loops. If so, they would recommend a very simple mod of four separate ground wires from the balance and volume pots back to an earth stud instead of buying a HiCap. Do not trust any of them to modify your Naim. If they already did, send it back to Naim to be fixed.

So let's say you're just Joe Blow of the Lejonklou Forum and you own all Linn. So what?

Last year I was working on a very large plastic welding machine project. It was interesting on many levels but one was there was no hydraulics for the presses. The machine used two very large AC electric motors. A representative for Allen Bradley was there to oversee my work. It turns out we were the only company to use these motors ever.

We had a lot of trouble getting the two motors to work. Every electrician on the job (with less experience than me) told me I didn't know what I was doing. The problem was ground loops. I tried explaining to the technicians involved that we needed to shield the cables on both ends with shielded AC cable. In addition, I shielded the motor ends directly to the metal cord grips instead of the motors themselves.

That went against everything all there were taught and thought.

That machine has been producing welded plastic flooring for over a year 24/7/365 with no issues. Recently, the foreman called me and we chatted. He asked where I learned so much about grounding issues remembering the conundrum. I told him him about Julian.

He said, "Never heard of the guy.".

Ron The Mon

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 290
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-02-07 10:13

Great story, as always, + great experience and knowledge ... Thank you ... :)
Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-07 03:21
Lego wrote:
2020-01-30 15:33
Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-01-14 22:10
I learned more about hi-fi in one hour with Julian Vereker than I did with almost all other designers/engineers combined in my life. He was an original.

Ron The Mon
What did you learn RTM?
I did not write my above statement to be challenged. It was simply an homage.

The truth is there have been very few hi-fi innovators. VERY few.

I spent far more time (over several years) than one hour with Julian. Below is just one excerpt.

Around 1984, Naim released upgrades for their NAC32 and 42 preamps. I was the manager of the number-one Linn/Naim hi-fi shop in the United States. I was so cocky and awesome, I took our demo NAC32 and modded it myself to "/5" status. Let's face it; I was so clever and persnickety, my mods would be equal to Julian's. Probably better, in fact.

Then Chris West and Mark Tucker from Naim came to our shop for a demo to prove the Linn LK amps were inferior. That night, the best amp I ever heard in my life at that time turned out to be a Naim NAC42/NAP140. The same NAC42 with a NAP90 was a close second.

How could this be?

A month or three later I had a chat with Julian. He explained ground loops, ground planes, and star earthing to me. Not in a demeaning way, but matter-of-factly. It turns out, the original Naim NAC12/22/32/42 pre-amps were faulty in design; not truly star-earthed. The volume and balance potentiometers had their grounds tied together. The only difference between a Naim NAC32 and 32/5 is separation of the pot grounds. That is it!!!!!

If you compare a 42 and 42/5 into a NAP140, the musical difference is quite large. Yet the only difference is two additional ground paths!

Unfortunately, Naim improved their preamps at the same time as the Hi-Cap. Many assumed, even today, the improvements by Naim were from the power supply. Not true!!

On this very forum, member Charlie1 has been stating a Naim 12/110 is better sounding than a 32/HiCap/250. His demos prove that, but the provenance of the amps are not shown completely. A 32/42 which has been "jumped" to provide "dual-voltage" is inadequate. It is not the dual-voltage but the proper grounding which is required.

Julian explained to me there were too may variations of the model 12 pre-amp to provide an upgrade. The NAC12 in fact has all four volume and balance grounds tied together and run back to star-earth as one connection. Using this pre-amp with a HiCap will provide no sonic improvement. In fact, it will sound worse with a HiCap.

One of the best amps I've ever heard to this day is a NAC12/NAP90 combo. The 90 is exactly a Nait power-amp only circuit in it's own box with a 24V pre-amp supply added. If you like a Nait/Nait2, try the 12/90 combo. WOW!

After hearing a 12/90 in my own hi-fi with an LP12 and Kans, it knocked me out! It sounded far better than a Linn LK1/LK2.

Charlie1 spends far more time on hi-fi forums than I do, and one of the forums he frequents is one I swore I would never post on again because the forum owner allowed moderators to besmirch me in very nasty personal ways. As such, I won't mention the place but there are currently three former Naim employees who promote themselves and their current hi-fi companies as improving upon Naim (meaning Julian Vereker).

Yet not one of those guys even properly understands "star-grounding" of Naim or earth-loops. If so, they would recommend a very simple mod of four separate ground wires from the balance and volume pots back to an earth stud instead of buying a HiCap. Do not trust any of them to modify your Naim. If they already did, send it back to Naim to be fixed.

So let's say you're just Joe Blow of the Lejonklou Forum and you own all Linn. So what?

Last year I was working on a very large plastic welding machine project. It was interesting on many levels but one was there was no hydraulics for the presses. The machine used two very large AC electric motors. A representative for Allen Bradley was there to oversee my work. It turns out we were the only company to use these motors ever.

We had a lot of trouble getting the two motors to work. Every electrician on the job (with less experience than me) told me I didn't know what I was doing. The problem was ground loops. I tried explaining to the technicians involved that we needed to shield the cables on both ends with shielded AC cable. In addition, I shielded the motor ends directly to the metal cord grips instead of the motors themselves.

That went against everything all there were taught and thought.

That machine has been producing welded plastic flooring for over a year 24/7/365 with no issues. Recently, the foreman called me and we chatted. He asked where I learned so much about grounding issues remembering the conundrum. I told him him about Julian.

He said, "Never heard of the guy.".

Ron The Mon
Music First ...
Vlado

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3172
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-02-07 10:21

Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-07 03:21
On this very forum, member Charlie1 has been stating a Naim 12/110 is better sounding than a 32/HiCap/250. His demos prove that, but the provenance of the amps are not shown completely. A 32/42 which has been "jumped" to provide "dual-voltage" is inadequate. It is not the dual-voltage but the proper grounding which is required.
Very interesting post Ron.
I don't want to divert the thread too much but I did later live with 32.5/Hi/250 for a few days and preferred it to 32/SNAPS or 32/Hi so that fits and is why I'm selling the 32 on PFM. Despite how unctuous the Kans sound with a 250 in play, going back to 12/110, 12/160, Nait was just a lot more enjoyable for me, which I guess is where we differ - there was 'something' getting in the way of the music with the 250 setups which is a shame.
Anyway, keen to hear a NAP90 after reading your comments!

Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 937
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Spannko » 2020-02-07 13:30

V.A.MKD wrote:
2020-02-07 10:13
Great story, as always, + great experience and knowledge ... Thank you ... :)
Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-07 03:21
Lego wrote:
2020-01-30 15:33
What did you learn RTM?
I did not write my above statement to be challenged. It was simply an homage.

The truth is there have been very few hi-fi innovators. VERY few.

I spent far more time (over several years) than one hour with Julian. Below is just one excerpt.

Around 1984, Naim released upgrades for their NAC32 and 42 preamps. I was the manager of the number-one Linn/Naim hi-fi shop in the United States. I was so cocky and awesome, I took our demo NAC32 and modded it myself to "/5" status. Let's face it; I was so clever and persnickety, my mods would be equal to Julian's. Probably better, in fact.

Then Chris West and Mark Tucker from Naim came to our shop for a demo to prove the Linn LK amps were inferior. That night, the best amp I ever heard in my life at that time turned out to be a Naim NAC42/NAP140. The same NAC42 with a NAP90 was a close second.

How could this be?

A month or three later I had a chat with Julian. He explained ground loops, ground planes, and star earthing to me. Not in a demeaning way, but matter-of-factly. It turns out, the original Naim NAC12/22/32/42 pre-amps were faulty in design; not truly star-earthed. The volume and balance potentiometers had their grounds tied together. The only difference between a Naim NAC32 and 32/5 is separation of the pot grounds. That is it!!!!!

If you compare a 42 and 42/5 into a NAP140, the musical difference is quite large. Yet the only difference is two additional ground paths!

Unfortunately, Naim improved their preamps at the same time as the Hi-Cap. Many assumed, even today, the improvements by Naim were from the power supply. Not true!!

On this very forum, member Charlie1 has been stating a Naim 12/110 is better sounding than a 32/HiCap/250. His demos prove that, but the provenance of the amps are not shown completely. A 32/42 which has been "jumped" to provide "dual-voltage" is inadequate. It is not the dual-voltage but the proper grounding which is required.

Julian explained to me there were too may variations of the model 12 pre-amp to provide an upgrade. The NAC12 in fact has all four volume and balance grounds tied together and run back to star-earth as one connection. Using this pre-amp with a HiCap will provide no sonic improvement. In fact, it will sound worse with a HiCap.

One of the best amps I've ever heard to this day is a NAC12/NAP90 combo. The 90 is exactly a Nait power-amp only circuit in it's own box with a 24V pre-amp supply added. If you like a Nait/Nait2, try the 12/90 combo. WOW!

After hearing a 12/90 in my own hi-fi with an LP12 and Kans, it knocked me out! It sounded far better than a Linn LK1/LK2.

Charlie1 spends far more time on hi-fi forums than I do, and one of the forums he frequents is one I swore I would never post on again because the forum owner allowed moderators to besmirch me in very nasty personal ways. As such, I won't mention the place but there are currently three former Naim employees who promote themselves and their current hi-fi companies as improving upon Naim (meaning Julian Vereker).

Yet not one of those guys even properly understands "star-grounding" of Naim or earth-loops. If so, they would recommend a very simple mod of four separate ground wires from the balance and volume pots back to an earth stud instead of buying a HiCap. Do not trust any of them to modify your Naim. If they already did, send it back to Naim to be fixed.

So let's say you're just Joe Blow of the Lejonklou Forum and you own all Linn. So what?

Last year I was working on a very large plastic welding machine project. It was interesting on many levels but one was there was no hydraulics for the presses. The machine used two very large AC electric motors. A representative for Allen Bradley was there to oversee my work. It turns out we were the only company to use these motors ever.

We had a lot of trouble getting the two motors to work. Every electrician on the job (with less experience than me) told me I didn't know what I was doing. The problem was ground loops. I tried explaining to the technicians involved that we needed to shield the cables on both ends with shielded AC cable. In addition, I shielded the motor ends directly to the metal cord grips instead of the motors themselves.

That went against everything all there were taught and thought.

That machine has been producing welded plastic flooring for over a year 24/7/365 with no issues. Recently, the foreman called me and we chatted. He asked where I learned so much about grounding issues remembering the conundrum. I told him him about Julian.

He said, "Never heard of the guy.".

Ron The Mon
Thanks for the background info Ron. Just as a matter of interest, do you have an explanation for why the Naim amps appeared to get worse, to some people, as time went by? Eg, Nait 1 (red) >>> Nait 1 (green) >>> Nait 2 etc. Or were they wrong to think so?

User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 942
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Tony Tune-age » 2020-02-07 17:33

Spannko wrote:
2020-02-07 13:30
Thanks for the background info Ron. Just as a matter of interest, do you have an explanation for why the Naim amps appeared to get worse, to some people, as time went by? Eg, Nait 1 (red) >>> Nait 1 (green) >>> Nait 2 etc. Or were they wrong to think so?

Interesting information Ron, and a really good question as well Spannko.

Cheers
Tony Tune-age

Ron The Mon
Active member
Active member
Posts: 194
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

Diversions

Post by Ron The Mon » 2020-02-07 21:22

Charlie1 wrote:
2020-02-07 10:21
Despite how unctuous the Kans sound with a 250 in play, going back to 12/110, 12/160, Nait was just a lot more enjoyable for me, which I guess is where we differ - there was 'something' getting in the way of the music with the 250 setups which is a shame.
Charlie1,
We don't differ at all. I guarantee the problem you had was a faulty HiCap and/or NAP250 and/or cables. As I wrote above, I don't have the time to debate guys on other web forums who don't know what they're talking about just to help you. Especially since you change hi-fi components more than I change my underwear. [insert smiley here]

I have been using the same exact Naim NAC42 and (2)NAP110s for over thirty years. I have a Nait and it doesn't sound as good. I have had 160s and 250s in my system and they usually sound better. I say usually because if they sound worse, it means a recap is probably needed.

I have heard your clips and I've heard proper Naim in real life. Something is wrong. Do you have documentation of the provenance of your amps? How many different 250s have you compared directly to each other? If someone were to remove the two large power supply caps from your 250 and substitute older worn-out caps, would you be able to tell by looking at it?
Anyway, keen to hear a NAP90 after reading your comments!
Shoebox NAP90s are rare and have a reputation for failure. They are quite undesirable, so when they come up used, they are usually cheap.

Ron The Mon

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3172
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-02-08 00:42

Thanks Ron,

If you change your underwear just once a day then you’re probably right!

The 250 was only just serviced by Class A, but I’ve not compared it to another one. I listened to it prior to service and the overall character was much the same as post service.

The Hicap was also serviced by Class A, but back in 2017.

I will just have to bear in mind your comments for now.

User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 290
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Remembering Julian Vereker

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-02-10 10:11

Hi Ron The Mon,
I was thinking on the best way to service my 30+ year old Naim Nait 2. It's in excellent working condition, but for sure need to be "refreshed".
It was not "opened" :))), re-caped or modified ... from nobody and according your posts, the best will be, to sent it to Naim. They have right direction how to do it, not as some ex ... Naim, which will make it sound like ...
Thank for shearing your journey ...
Vlado
Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-07 03:21
Lego wrote:
2020-01-30 15:33
Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-01-14 22:10
I learned more about hi-fi in one hour with Julian Vereker than I did with almost all other designers/engineers combined in my life. He was an original.

Ron The Mon
What did you learn RTM?
Yet not one of those guys even properly understands "star-grounding" of Naim or earth-loops. If so, they would recommend a very simple mod of four separate ground wires from the balance and volume pots back to an earth stud instead of buying a HiCap. Do not trust any of them to modify your Naim. If they already did, send it back to Naim to be fixed.

Ron The Mon
Music First ...
Vlado

Ron The Mon
Active member
Active member
Posts: 194
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

Define "Servicing"

Post by Ron The Mon » 2020-02-16 22:30

Charlie1 wrote:
2020-02-08 00:42
The 250 was only just serviced by Class A, but I’ve not compared it to another one. I listened to it prior to service and the overall character was much the same as post service.

The Hicap was also serviced by Class A, but back in 2017.

I will just have to bear in mind your comments for now.
Charlie1,
What exactly was done when "serviced"? Was the charge of "servicing" your NAP250 around £1400 and at least 83 components replaced and testing was done before and after? I do not know Darren or Class A and this is not a critique of him/them. However, on their website it says items can be serviced while you wait. How can a power-amp be tested or listened to without being warmed-up for at least a day?

You not hearing a big improvement tells me something is awry.

I have heard several Naim amps and power supplies serviced by Chris West, at AVOptions, over decades. Every time there was much more than "the overall character was much the same". The last time I heard a before and after from a 250, it was a huge improvement. AVOptions (and HERE) has a list of the four "R" costs; Repair, Recap, Rebuild, and Restore. The phrase "serviced" Naim is bandied like all parts, work actually done, and who does it are the same. If you hear a Naim NAP250 being close to the performance of a NAP110, there is a problem with the 250.

Ron The Mon

Ron The Mon
Active member
Active member
Posts: 194
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

Naim Getting Worse?!

Post by Ron The Mon » 2020-02-16 22:59

Tony Tune-age wrote:
2020-02-07 17:33
Spannko wrote:
2020-02-07 13:30
Thanks for the background info Ron. Just as a matter of interest, do you have an explanation for why the Naim amps appeared to get worse, to some people, as time went by? Eg, Nait 1 (red) >>> Nait 1 (green) >>> Nait 2 etc. Or were they wrong to think so?
Interesting information Ron, and a really good question as well Spannko.
Tony-Spannko,
Are you talking about in 1988 or now? Back in the day, newer Naim products always sounded better when I compared them directly. Always. If you compare a 32 year-old amp to a 35 year-old amp, both bought used, what are you hearing? The difference between two different products or how they aged?

Naim's current range sound better than olive, which is better than "chrome bumper", which is better than "bolt down". The problem is when someone finds a good example that aged well they think that was the sweet spot in the Naim line-up.

The problem I have with buying new Naim is it is more expensive to run than a moving coil cartridge.

Ron The Mon

AlbannachFE
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: 2017-12-09 14:43
Location: Scotland.

Re: Define "Servicing"

Post by AlbannachFE » 2020-02-17 17:55

Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-16 22:30
Charlie1 wrote:
2020-02-08 00:42
The 250 was only just serviced by Class A, but I’ve not compared it to another one. I listened to it prior to service and the overall character was much the same as post service.

The Hicap was also serviced by Class A, but back in 2017.

I will just have to bear in mind your comments for now.
Charlie1,
What exactly was done when "serviced"? Was the charge of "servicing" your NAP250 around £1400 and at least 83 components replaced and testing was done before and after? I do not know Darren or Class A and this is not a critique of him/them. However, on their website it says items can be serviced while you wait. How can a power-amp be tested or listened to without being warmed-up for at least a day?

You not hearing a big improvement tells me something is awry.

I have heard several Naim amps and power supplies serviced by Chris West, at AVOptions, over decades. Every time there was much more than "the overall character was much the same". The last time I heard a before and after from a 250, it was a huge improvement. AVOptions (and HERE) has a list of the four "R" costs; Repair, Recap, Rebuild, and Restore. The phrase "serviced" Naim is bandied like all parts, work actually done, and who does it are the same. If you hear a Naim NAP250 being close to the performance of a NAP110, there is a problem with the 250.

Ron The Mon
Ron,

Class A are the authorised Naim service centre in the UK, and they get parts/service kits direct from the Naim factory. I've no experience of them myself, but I've seen nothing but praise for Darran's work. He is not one of the self-proclaimed Naim 'experts' (who, as far as I can see, barely conceal their disdain for the very products they make their living from by way of 'upgrades') to be found on the forum that I think that you were recently referring to.
Last edited by AlbannachFE on 2020-02-17 18:01, edited 1 time in total.

AlbannachFE
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: 2017-12-09 14:43
Location: Scotland.

Re: Naim Getting Worse?!

Post by AlbannachFE » 2020-02-17 17:59

Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-16 22:59
Tony Tune-age wrote:
2020-02-07 17:33
Spannko wrote:
2020-02-07 13:30
Thanks for the background info Ron. Just as a matter of interest, do you have an explanation for why the Naim amps appeared to get worse, to some people, as time went by? Eg, Nait 1 (red) >>> Nait 1 (green) >>> Nait 2 etc. Or were they wrong to think so?
Interesting information Ron, and a really good question as well Spannko.
Tony-Spannko,
Are you talking about in 1988 or now? Back in the day, newer Naim products always sounded better when I compared them directly. Always. If you compare a 32 year-old amp to a 35 year-old amp, both bought used, what are you hearing? The difference between two different products or how they aged?

Naim's current range sound better than olive, which is better than "chrome bumper", which is better than "bolt down". The problem is when someone finds a good example that aged well they think that was the sweet spot in the Naim line-up.

The problem I have with buying new Naim is it is more expensive to run than a moving coil cartridge.

Ron The Mon
We'll have to agree to disagree about modern Black Naim being better than Olive (or CB); To my ears, post-JV Naim has changed, and not for the better, even more so since the company lost its independence. YMMV.

Ron The Mon
Active member
Active member
Posts: 194
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit

Re: Define "Servicing"

Post by Ron The Mon » 2020-02-17 20:32

AlbannachFE wrote:
2020-02-17 17:55
Class A are the authorised Naim service centre in the UK, and they get parts/service kits direct from the Naim factory. I've no experience of them myself, but I've seen nothing but praise for Darran's work. He is not one of the self-proclaimed Naim 'experts' (who, as far as I can see, barely conceal their disdain for the very products they make their living from by way of 'upgrades') to be found on the forum that I think that you were recently referring to.
AlbannachFE,
I agree with what you wrote above. (Except I have seen a Naim amp claimed to have been serviced by Class A that had Kendeil capacitors, which Naim don't use or recommend.)

The point I was trying to make is defining "service". Is it a recap where just the two main reservoir capacitors are replaced? Or were dozens of parts (not just capacitors) replaced, and powered for days, then tested? And who did it? Two completely different scenarios and both called "service".

Ron The Mon

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3172
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Define "Servicing"

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-02-17 20:42

Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-17 20:32
I agree with what you wrote above. (Except I have seen a Naim amp claimed to have been serviced by Class A that had Kendeil capacitors, which Naim don't use or recommend.)
Sounds like it was once sold as being serviced by authorised Naim agent when it was no such thing.

I'd better not relay a particular conversation with him but do trust his work and that he will replace any elements that are likely to fail as a matter of course.

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3172
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Define "Servicing"

Post by Charlie1 » 2020-02-17 20:47

Ron The Mon wrote:
2020-02-16 22:30
What exactly was done when "serviced"? Was the charge of "servicing" your NAP250 around £1400 and at least 83 components replaced and testing was done before and after? I do not know Darren or Class A and this is not a critique of him/them. However, on their website it says items can be serviced while you wait. How can a power-amp be tested or listened to without being warmed-up for at least a day?

You not hearing a big improvement tells me something is awry.

I have heard several Naim amps and power supplies serviced by Chris West, at AVOptions, over decades. Every time there was much more than "the overall character was much the same". The last time I heard a before and after from a 250, it was a huge improvement. AVOptions (and HERE) has a list of the four "R" costs; Repair, Recap, Rebuild, and Restore. The phrase "serviced" Naim is bandied like all parts, work actually done, and who does it are the same. If you hear a Naim NAP250 being close to the performance of a NAP110, there is a problem with the 250.
The service cost was £288 so nothing like what you're suggesting (it was 22 x caps and 4 x diodes). He is cheaper than Naim but both are much cheaper than the £1,400 you mention. Is that for the cryogenic cleaning of the PSU etc.?

The 250 does sound excellent in terms of resolution, slam, control, etc. It's just not making quite as much sense of the music to me. My 250 might not be the best or perhaps does need more running in, but I am not alone in preferring the Nait and 160. I don't mean via my clips, but other folks that have owned all 3. It would be nice to compare more examples but you have to draw the line somewhere, or else make this a full-time job.

Post Reply