If you where to start all over again.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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If you where to start all over again.

Post by beck » 2019-12-14 11:41

...........I would keep my system simple with only one source. It would be a Sondek of some kind. I would not bother with MC carts. They do sound great but the ease of replacement and cost would be the deciding factor.

I would be even more careful with my records than I have been in the past. I now know that they are not easily replaced and that the way they can make music touch me is unparalleled by digital.

I would cherish every time I put on a record knowing that music is a vital part of my everyday life.

It would be a passive system with one amp and two speakers (a lot like my present one).

A lot of care and attention into the setup would be mandatory but no fancy expensive cables in sight.

Knowing what I know now it would be all I ever needed. :-)

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by V.A.MKD » 2019-12-14 12:10

... Yes beck, you are absolutely right. It will be simple (but not simpler ;-)) system, the only difference from my side will be adding a CD/SACD in chain.
Right now I'm in process to analyze every single point in system and to make decision what will stay and what will go ... and most probably what will be new components ... Starting from the wall and than every single point will be analyzed with Tune Method, yes it is slow process (knowing myself), but it will be done perfectly ...
And than (and in a mean time) a lot of music ...
Music First ...

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by Defender » 2019-12-14 13:09

I lived with my digital based system for now 30 years but whenever I heard music from a turntable I felt more emotionally touched.
I thought that should be possible with digital too. But in my experience it is not.
I know also some on this forum think digital is better than best analog ...
Maybe it sounds „cleaner“ but always not as emotionally drawing you into the music.

After 30 years and one year with a lot of really helpfully people in this forum I have given up and bought an LP12 for Christmas.

So I agree with beck. Start with a turntable as source - an MM system is a good start and a Lejonklou MM phono stage paired with a Boazu and you will be happy for a long time.

Later you can pair it with a streamer (for backround music) but I think even an Akurate DS Katalyst cant cope with a proper setup Majik LP12/Akito3/Adikt.

Hope someone disagrees with my last statement ;)

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-12-14 15:56

Interesting topic.

The problem is you can't get the understanding without making the journey. So, the only option is the learn the lessons and then pop back in time which I'm struggling to achieve at the moment.

I wish I'd got into vinyl a few years earlier but one good decision (for me) has been to stick to it ever since as my only source.

I should also have spent a little more on the Ittok than the Akito for my first deck. I could then have stuck with that deck for 30 years and spent more on vinyl, including better pressings.

No major regrets though. I know what beck and defender mean about mm. It's really all you need although it's nice to regularly hear both. No plans to downgrade my main deck to mm but it wouldnt worry me now if that's what I had to do.

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by V.A.MKD » 2019-12-14 16:24

Hahahahahaa ... I'm first to disagree ... :)

Hm ... looks that all of us, with 30 years of experience, have to pass learning process ...

For me No 1 is vinyl (especially AAA records), than SACD, CD and rest ... streaming or servers or ...
MM or MC it is not so important (for me), both have their + and - and with well adjusted TT both have "klik" moment ... and make me happy with my music.
Music First ...

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by Defender » 2019-12-14 17:25

Just to make my earlier statement more clear - I didnt asked for disagreement to have an argument/fight but rather to be proven wrong ....
I am also not advocating against MC but I mean that MM takes you already very far.

I still have a good SACD Player so I know what you mean but its not in my system anymore.
When I found a chance to rip all my SACD‘s to be able to play them with my ADS Katalyst I was hoping it keeps me away from having to admit that Digital is simply not as good as Analog. Not having to invest a lot of money into a „new“ technology/format as I would rather spent that money into improving what I have - staying with digital.

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If I was to start all over again.

Post by Ron The Mon » 2019-12-14 18:07

The only difference I would make is to buy a lot more items used.

When I was younger (and with less cash), I bought 90% of my hi-fi brand-new in sealed boxes.

Now 90% of my purchases are previously owned or demonstration units.

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by V.A.MKD » 2019-12-14 18:22

It was joke ... :), I don't mean anything bad ...

Since that read a lot here, I highly respect your vision & experience, I just want to confirm that I'm on the same line with your opinion and to extend it with MC and SACD / CD as my opinion ...(for me). I hope you understand me and everything is OK ... and sorry if I make bad feeling, it was misunderstanding ...

What I want to "point / underline" is Vinyl especially AAA ... as premium and than DAA and DDA ...
Music First ...

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by V.A.MKD » 2019-12-14 18:28

Same here, if you read my system, I have lot components, but by them new. I'm little ??? for a second hand, for ex-demo you are right ...
Music First ...

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-12-14 18:29

Defender wrote:
2019-12-14 13:09
After 30 years and one year with a lot of really helpfully people in this forum I have given up and bought an LP12 for Christmas.
Happy Christmas :)

An LP12 can breath life into music in a way I've never experienced with digital, even CD12 and Katalyst KDS. I still very much enjoy digital sources but, like you say, it's never quite the same (for some of us).

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by Defender » 2019-12-14 19:10

V.A.MKD wrote:
2019-12-14 18:22
It was joke ... :), I don't mean anything bad ...

Since that read a lot here, I highly respect your vision & experience, I just want to confirm that I'm on the same line with your opinion and to extend it with MC and SACD / CD as my opinion ...(for me). I hope you understand me and everything is OK ... and sorry if I make bad feeling, it was misunderstanding ...

What I want to "point / underline" is Vinyl especially AAA ... as premium and than DAA and DDA ...
Dont worry at all I didn't meant you - I just realized my earlier statement could be misunderstood and wanted to make it more clear - all fine ;)

As mentioned from Charlie1 before - getting the right pressings ... it can sometimes be a „cheap“ upgrade but the difficulty is how to know which pressing is good. Thats why I like the discussion which Matteo started about good and worst pressings really much.

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by V.A.MKD » 2019-12-14 19:36

You mean same performance / recording / cat no DG, Beethoven, 9th Sym, but pressed in JP, USA, Europe or ....
Excellent point .... but don't have experience ... never do it, by same album, once pressed in EU, once in USA or ....
Music First ...

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by Defender » 2019-12-14 20:48

yes there are a lot of things which make a difference for the same catalog number
pressings in different countries
pressings from different pressing plants in the same country
1st pressings vs later pressings
etc.

the issue is you usually buy only one and you are either happy or not happy with it but even if you are happy with it the same LP can even sound better if you have one of the best pressings

I think Tendaberry of this forum has a lot of experience with it.

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by David Neel » 2019-12-14 21:55

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-12-14 15:56
The problem is you can't get the understanding without making the journey.
True! I've had luck on my journey. First in late 1975, walking into a shop which sold something called a Linn Sondek. The owner claimed that I could hear that it was better than other turntables. So in early 1976 I became an LP12 owner and started amassing vinyl. Second, when CD was all the rage, I was broke - this meant I had no money to buy CDs or a CD player, and downgraded to a K9 when my Asak T died, but kept on playing LPs. Because money was so tight for so long, I was careful with my upgrades, all second-hand until I bought Lejonklou amplifiers, and so had no significant wrong turnings. And the Kans were in place for 27 years!

So the only thing I'd go back and change is more money at some points, and that really would have led me astray!
The less a person knows, the more certainly he knows it.

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by David Neel » 2019-12-14 21:58

beck wrote:
2019-12-14 11:41
I would cherish every time I put on a record knowing that music is a vital part of my everyday life.
Absolutely!
The less a person knows, the more certainly he knows it.

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Re: If you where to start all over again.

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-12-14 22:16

beck wrote:
2019-12-14 11:41
...........I would keep my system simple with only one source. It would be a Sondek of some kind. I would not bother with MC carts. They do sound great but the ease of replacement and cost would be the deciding factor.

I would be even more careful with my records than I have been in the past. I now know that they are not easily replaced and that the way they can make music touch me is unparalleled by digital.

I would cherish every time I put on a record knowing that music is a vital part of my everyday life.

It would be a passive system with one amp and two speakers (a lot like my present one).

A lot of care and attention into the setup would be mandatory but no fancy expensive cables in sight.

Knowing what I know now it would be all I ever needed. :-)
For the most part I would say the same things, except for the MC cartridge part. I am even in a bit of a dilemma with my current system about the idea of adding another source (the HAKAI, CD12 and Kremlin have all been disconnected probably since April/SINGularity). This is because beyond the incredible musicality of this mostly Lejonklou system, there is something special about the fact that it is true dual mono from the cartridge through to the speakers with no ground connection between the two channels. (This was something I was going to write about in a fuller post in the My System section but it seems appropriate here.) I tested this by taking a cheap interconnect and ripping the pins out of the RCAs, then I connected the two Sagatun Monos together with it so it only connected the grounds. The music immediately became less fluid and enjoyable with a little bit of a compressed sound. Still quite good, but not as good (it is hard to go backwards - hence the need for a Kandid). So connecting anything into the system will connect the grounds and make my records sound a little less musical, hence why the other devices remain disconnected and will probably only be connected when I want to use them and then disconnected again. I find myself wondering how difficult it would be to use two DACs with a HAKAI such that there is no L-R ground bridge? I could buy another Kremlin and tune both to the same channel but I hardly ever listen to radio in the home. Trying to sync two CD12s??? This is also causing a problem in how, or if, to hook up the subwoofer.

I do echo the idea of the path being part of the joy. But I also would have to say that if I had to start all over I would be in trouble, as I have only been able to afford the system I have now through buying and selling a lot of gear over 4 decades and stepping up bit by bit (OK SINGularity isn't a bit, more like a humungous chunk, but you get the idea). With what I hear at home, having friends like Frank Sinatra, Miles Davis, Satchmo, Rhiannon Giddens, King Crimson, NIN, Karl Böhm and the Vienna Philharmonic, Porcupine Tree, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Duke Ellington, Loreena McKennitt, etc., etc. come visit my living room and perform live for me, I would just have to buy the same system.
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