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Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-14 16:32
by sunbeamgls
They haven't said as much, but with the re-introduction of the Klimax DS and Akurate DS in Katalyst versions, are Linn recognising that a 'source first' company ought to produce their best digital sources in a form that can live happily in non-Linn systems?

Of course, its good to see these products back and, with 2 policy reversals in as many months, good to see that they can recognise that they're not infallable.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-14 17:31
by Matteo
Will they also reconsider analogue pre?

M.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-14 17:38
by David Neel
Matteo wrote:
2019-10-14 17:31
Will they also reconsider analogue pre?

M.
Luckily it doesn't matter. A Sagatun or two will do the job better!

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-14 18:28
by Defender
they opened a gap and Fredrik took over the market - they have no chance to come back ;)

More serious: they said they are not able! to make the Klimax Kontrol any better and there is even a video explaining how a pre can only make things worse. With this statement/video they lost creditability in my eyes. For me it was „pants down“ in front of everyone.
Matteo you probably have not heard a Sagatun as that is why David says its irrelevant if they reconsider.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 11:51
by linesrg
sunbeamgls wrote:
2019-10-14 16:32
They haven't said as much, but with the re-introduction of the Klimax DS and Akurate DS in Katalyst versions, are Linn recognising that a 'source first' company ought to produce their best digital sources in a form that can live happily in non-Linn systems?

Of course, its good to see these products back and, with 2 policy reversals in as many months, good to see that they can recognise that they're not infallable.
At the risk of sounding like the proverbial 'stuck record' any company that makes a single policy reversal in short order loses some 'street cred', twice in a month surely indicates something more going on.

The problem now is how do you treat the next announcement from the company - do you take it at face value or maybe hang on for a month or two to see if they're sticking with it?????

Regards

Richard

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 12:02
by AlbannachFE
As part of system hierarchy, Linn used to talk of preserving the signal as it travels through the system (or words to that effect), now they seem to advocate deliberate manipulation of the signal...

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 12:53
by Charlie1
My thoughts are that they are shifting their business towards what they see as a future market since all of us old school enthusiasts are slowly kicking the bucket. It's a brave new world; sleek looks, wireless, calibrated to the room, etc. and nothing like as enjoyable to listen to but their new customer base won't know any different.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 14:59
by sunbeamgls
AlbannachFE wrote:
2019-10-15 12:02
As part of system hierarchy, Linn used to talk of preserving the signal as it travels through the system (or words to that effect), now they seem to advocate deliberate manipulation of the signal...
Well, that's a matter of interpretation. Manipulation sounds like a bad thing but remember that unintentional manipulation of the signal happens everywhere, even when the intention is to preserve. Correcting known errors further down the chain sounds like it could be a good thing and could be said to be preserving the signal. Take your pick.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 15:01
by sunbeamgls
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-10-15 12:53
My thoughts are that they are shifting their business towards what they see as a future market since all of us old school enthusiasts are slowly kicking the bucket. It's a brave new world; sleek looks, wireless, calibrated to the room, etc. and nothing like as enjoyable to listen to but their new customer base won't know any different.
That's quite some sweeping statement Charlie. Is there suddenly a generation of people who can't listen to music for its emotional content? Perhaps you're right, but I hope not! Or are you saying that Linn no longer cares about the people who enjoy music for its emotional content? Which could be the case of course.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 15:03
by sunbeamgls
linesrg wrote:
2019-10-15 11:51
sunbeamgls wrote:
2019-10-14 16:32
They haven't said as much, but with the re-introduction of the Klimax DS and Akurate DS in Katalyst versions, are Linn recognising that a 'source first' company ought to produce their best digital sources in a form that can live happily in non-Linn systems?

Of course, its good to see these products back and, with 2 policy reversals in as many months, good to see that they can recognise that they're not infallable.
At the risk of sounding like the proverbial 'stuck record' any company that makes a single policy reversal in short order loses some 'street cred', twice in a month surely indicates something more going on.

The problem now is how do you treat the next announcement from the company - do you take it at face value or maybe hang on for a month or two to see if they're sticking with it?????

Regards

Richard
Indeed, although (IIRC) you'd have waited for more than 12 months for one of those reversals.
There's definitely 2 sides to these announcements, as you point out.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 17:05
by Defender
I think the problem which becomes now visible at Linn starts way earlier.

There are less and less companies which have really good analog circuit design people.
The problem starts at university already - all teaching moves to digital.
Digital people are taking over - easy solutions for a complex problem. Their thinking is you just have to keep the signal in 0‘s and 1‘s and all is fine and you have no problem with the unintentional signal alterations which can happen to an analog signal. These people create the ideas of tomorrow with the knowledge they have.

... and it actually it works very good everywhere - see high speed internet, high resolution TV and high resolution photography - that supports their thinking and makes it difficult for them to understand that reproducing music might request a different approach. You see that at Linn with changing the analog signal as soon as possible to digital (Klimax DSM) and keeping the signal in the digital domain (Exakt) until they have! to change it which is at the very end at the loudspeaker.

This is also the reason why Keith Robertson at Linn said they couldnt do the Klimax Kontrol any better.
Because to do so they would have to have someone who creates analog circuit design ideas.
Thats my subjective opinion.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 19:36
by Music Lover
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-10-15 12:53
. and nothing like as enjoyable to listen to but their new customer base won't know any different.
I'm fully convinced they would understand after a proper demo.
The key word is "proper"

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 21:27
by lejonklou
Defender wrote:
2019-10-15 17:05
I think the problem which becomes now visible at Linn starts way earlier.

There are less and less companies which have really good analog circuit design people.
The problem starts at university already - all teaching moves to digital.
Digital people are taking over - easy solutions for a complex problem. Their thinking is you just have to keep the signal in 0‘s and 1‘s and all is fine and you have no problem with the unintentional signal alterations which can happen to an analog signal. These people create the ideas of tomorrow with the knowledge they have.

... and it actually it works very good everywhere - see high speed internet, high resolution TV and high resolution photography - that supports their thinking and makes it difficult for them to understand that reproducing music might request a different approach. You see that at Linn with changing the analog signal as soon as possible to digital (Klimax DSM) and keeping the signal in the digital domain (Exakt) until they have! to change it which is at the very end at the loudspeaker.

This is also the reason why Keith Robertson at Linn said they couldnt do the Klimax Kontrol any better.
Because to do so they would have to have someone who creates analog circuit design ideas.
Thats my subjective opinion.
Spot on!

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 22:11
by Charlie1
sunbeamgls wrote:
2019-10-15 15:01
That's quite some sweeping statement Charlie. Is there suddenly a generation of people who can't listen to music for its emotional content? Perhaps you're right, but I hope not! Or are you saying that Linn no longer cares about the people who enjoy music for its emotional content? Which could be the case of course.
I think I was in a slightly grumpy sweeping statement kind of a mood :)

I guess Linn are really trying to service both camps, existing oldies and build a new generation of customers. Naim are no different but they seem to be keeping more of their older customers happier in the process, staying closer to their founding principles.

And I'm sure you're right, Linn must want to retain as much emotional content as possible, but surely it can only be within the constraints of their chosen path.

Re: Linn Reconsider 'Source First'

Posted: 2019-10-15 22:42
by Charlie1
Music Lover wrote:
2019-10-15 19:36
I'm fully convinced they would understand after a proper demo.
The key word is "proper"
Yeah, that's probably right but what proportion of new younger global customers will get that opportunity or even be all that interested to attend. Maybe my negativity is unwarranted.