I just discovered this forum .... so, Hi, everybody!
If I may, I would like to post a question that I put on the Linn forum a week or so ago. Perhaps unsurprisingly, it received very few replies there; I suspect that I may get more of a response here ....
At some point in the future, I hope to upgrade a rather old pair of ATC SCM20SL ATs. The obvious choice would be ATC 50 or 100s. But I would be most interested to know if anybody has had the opportunity to compare these ATC models with current Linn active 'speakers.
I stress the word current. For over ten years, I have had active Kabers driven by three Klouts with a 5103. I have been very happy with these but, I am afraid to say, feel that the SCM20s are far superior. I have not had the opportunity to hear more recent Linn active speakers (and doubt whether I will have the chance to do a direct comparison any time soon), so would appreciate hearing the views of anybody who has. I will, of course, do some thorough listening before making a purchase, but it's always useful to get other opinions too.
One factor I can't ignore is the relative price. If I am reading the price lists correctly:
ATC SCM50SL AT: approx. £8,500
ATC SCM100SL AT: approx. £9,500
Linn Klimax 350A: approx. £26,000
Linn Akurate 242 + Akurate 4200 + (3200 x 2): approx. £15,900
(The currency symbol here is UK pounds. Fortunately, given the recent exchange rate moves, both are from UK manufacturers ....)
As I said, the only real comparison I have made so far is between my ATC SCM20SL ATs and active Kabers with Klouts. I have no doubt that 242s are way better than Kabers (even better than Keltiks were), but so, I presume, will the SCM50s be significantly better than my rather old (and tired) pair of 20s.
I will certainly try to arrange a proper (home) comparison, but the 242s (never mind the 350As) would have to be an significantly better to justify another £7,400 or so! But if anybody does have any experience of listening to both the ATC and Linn models, I'd love to hear about it (particularly if you feel that Linn is that much better!)
Thanks ....
Active Loudspeaker Choice - Linn or ATC?
Moderator: Staff
Active Loudspeaker Choice - Linn or ATC?
Last edited by Vereina on 2009-03-25 19:26, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to the forum! I'm confident you will get sound advice here.Vereina wrote:Linn Akurate 242 + Akurate 4200 x 2: approx. £13,400
Just want to point out that if your aim is to drive 242s aktiv then you'll need more than 2 x 4200 as they are 5-way speakers.
Personally, 1 x 4200 + 2 x 3200 would be the way I'd go, but 2 x 4200 + 1 x 2200 is also possible. Shame Linn don't make a 5200, but you can't have everything.
I understand that you're keen to go active, but if you do get the opportunity I think you should have a listen to 242s with 2 x solo's. Solos also come up on the second hand market quite often, but I don't know if Linn are planning to bring out a new version in the near future as they've been in production a good 10 years I think.
All the best
Klimax 320A
Vereina,
As your ATC's are (propably) integrated active speakers, you might look at these LINN models:
Klimax 320A
Fully-integrated Aktiv four-way bookshelf or stand-mounted loudspeaker
No idea of the price-range though, I admit.
Regards
Urs
As your ATC's are (propably) integrated active speakers, you might look at these LINN models:
Klimax 320A
Fully-integrated Aktiv four-way bookshelf or stand-mounted loudspeaker
No idea of the price-range though, I admit.
Regards
Urs
Charlie1,
Thanks for the correction. I have edited my original post (which, of course, pushes the price in the wrong direction :().
Urs,
Interesting suggestion; thanks. According to the Linn pricelist I've seen, the 320As are £14,000, so slightly cheaper that the 242s with Akurate power amps, but still a lot more than ATC SCM50s. I would be interested to know if anybody has made this particular comparison.
Thanks for the correction. I have edited my original post (which, of course, pushes the price in the wrong direction :().
Urs,
Interesting suggestion; thanks. According to the Linn pricelist I've seen, the 320As are £14,000, so slightly cheaper that the 242s with Akurate power amps, but still a lot more than ATC SCM50s. I would be interested to know if anybody has made this particular comparison.
Well, I can't give you exactly the comparisons you are looking for but I can come close on some and give my impressions on others.
I own ATC100ASLs and I am vary happy with them. They are my first non-Linn speaker since 1980. My first Linn speaker was the 1980 Isobarik DMS. I bought my last pair of Isobarik DMS/PMS in 1988 which are the next to last version they made with removable crossovers in the bases of the speakers. I ran them passive for many years but upgraded in the late 90s to Aktiv using four LK280/Sparks. The improvement in musicality and flow from Aktiv conversion was so great that I doubt I could live with a passive speaker for my music system any more.
Although I was quite pleased with the Isobariks, about three years ago I decided it was time to check out other options. I had heard Keltiks in my home and, while I liked them, I didn't feel it was a big enough improvement to make the change worthwhile. I also tried a few other speakers in the home including Quad 988 ELS and Sonus faber Cremona but none of them performed as well as the Isobariks. Then I brought home Akurate 242s run passive and while they did some things better than the Isobariks the bass was lacking and I didn't find them a totally convincing replacement. But they were good enough that I contemplated the possibility of using them Aktiv. Around this time a friend who owned a Linn dealership in Chicago, IL told me I really had to listen to the ATCs. After hearing his description and doing a bit of reading I headed to Chicago with the Akurate 242s and a couple of 2250s for a comparison. I did not have the equipment needed to run the 242s Aktiv but I ran them with a 2250 on the array and one on the bass drivers. An Exotik was the preamp on both units and sources were a fully loaded LP12 and a UniDisk 1.1. My girlfriend came with me to listen to the comparisons and we were both floored by the way the ATC100ASLs just clobbered the 242s. We could hear much more of what was going on musically, the musicians were easier to follow and their styles of playing were easier to hear. I used a mix of music but two still stand out in my memory: Artur Rubinstein's piano playing was amazing - you could hear the amount of pressure put on each key and Johnny Cash's voice was more expressive than I have ever heard it.
After that comparison I quickly sold all my amps and Aktiv crossover and ordered a pair of the ATCs. These have been in my system ever since the only changes being to convert them to 230 Volts and to adjust the bolts holding the drivers and front baffle using a precision torque screwdriver both of which made worthwhile improvements. I converted my Isobariks back to passive and use them in the front of my home theater system.
In the years since I purchased the ATCs I have heard a number of alternatives in the store and in customers houses but none have made me desire them over my 100s. These include 242s run Aktiv with 5125s (quite good but still not in the ATC 100 league) and Sonus faber Amati and Stradivari (also quite good, some of the best passive speakers I have heard, but still lacking the ease and musicality of active). I also had the option of picking up a pair of Artikulat 350As at a good price (one I could have easily covered by selling my ATCs) but after listening to them in the store and at a friend's house I remain unconvinced that they would be an improvement over the ATCs although I do feel that they are superior to the Sf Amatis that I have heard in the same room. In all three cases listening was done using a fully loaded LP12 through a Linto (or two) and a Klimax Kontrol. However, I haven't listened to the 350As (or the Aktiv 242s and Sonus fabers, for that matter) at home nor have I dragged my 143 lbs ATCs into the store so these are more listening impressions rather than actual comparisons. But I hoped they might be helpful.
As you can imagine from this I consider the ATCs to be quite a deal as they are less than half the price of the Artikulat 350As or the Amatis and a pair of Klimax Solos and are in the same price range as Akurate 242s with two Majik 5100s and crossovers. The SCM50ASL is essentially the same speaker with a 9" woofer instead of the 12" in the 100 and with a cabinet half as large - the midrange, tweeter and amps are the same. I haven't heard the tower versions of the speaker, mine are the box style on the ATC stands which I modified by putting spikes on the tops of the stands. The friend who recommended them to me doesn't like the towers as well as the original box types feeling they are a concession to style rather than an actual improvement.
I own ATC100ASLs and I am vary happy with them. They are my first non-Linn speaker since 1980. My first Linn speaker was the 1980 Isobarik DMS. I bought my last pair of Isobarik DMS/PMS in 1988 which are the next to last version they made with removable crossovers in the bases of the speakers. I ran them passive for many years but upgraded in the late 90s to Aktiv using four LK280/Sparks. The improvement in musicality and flow from Aktiv conversion was so great that I doubt I could live with a passive speaker for my music system any more.
Although I was quite pleased with the Isobariks, about three years ago I decided it was time to check out other options. I had heard Keltiks in my home and, while I liked them, I didn't feel it was a big enough improvement to make the change worthwhile. I also tried a few other speakers in the home including Quad 988 ELS and Sonus faber Cremona but none of them performed as well as the Isobariks. Then I brought home Akurate 242s run passive and while they did some things better than the Isobariks the bass was lacking and I didn't find them a totally convincing replacement. But they were good enough that I contemplated the possibility of using them Aktiv. Around this time a friend who owned a Linn dealership in Chicago, IL told me I really had to listen to the ATCs. After hearing his description and doing a bit of reading I headed to Chicago with the Akurate 242s and a couple of 2250s for a comparison. I did not have the equipment needed to run the 242s Aktiv but I ran them with a 2250 on the array and one on the bass drivers. An Exotik was the preamp on both units and sources were a fully loaded LP12 and a UniDisk 1.1. My girlfriend came with me to listen to the comparisons and we were both floored by the way the ATC100ASLs just clobbered the 242s. We could hear much more of what was going on musically, the musicians were easier to follow and their styles of playing were easier to hear. I used a mix of music but two still stand out in my memory: Artur Rubinstein's piano playing was amazing - you could hear the amount of pressure put on each key and Johnny Cash's voice was more expressive than I have ever heard it.
After that comparison I quickly sold all my amps and Aktiv crossover and ordered a pair of the ATCs. These have been in my system ever since the only changes being to convert them to 230 Volts and to adjust the bolts holding the drivers and front baffle using a precision torque screwdriver both of which made worthwhile improvements. I converted my Isobariks back to passive and use them in the front of my home theater system.
In the years since I purchased the ATCs I have heard a number of alternatives in the store and in customers houses but none have made me desire them over my 100s. These include 242s run Aktiv with 5125s (quite good but still not in the ATC 100 league) and Sonus faber Amati and Stradivari (also quite good, some of the best passive speakers I have heard, but still lacking the ease and musicality of active). I also had the option of picking up a pair of Artikulat 350As at a good price (one I could have easily covered by selling my ATCs) but after listening to them in the store and at a friend's house I remain unconvinced that they would be an improvement over the ATCs although I do feel that they are superior to the Sf Amatis that I have heard in the same room. In all three cases listening was done using a fully loaded LP12 through a Linto (or two) and a Klimax Kontrol. However, I haven't listened to the 350As (or the Aktiv 242s and Sonus fabers, for that matter) at home nor have I dragged my 143 lbs ATCs into the store so these are more listening impressions rather than actual comparisons. But I hoped they might be helpful.
As you can imagine from this I consider the ATCs to be quite a deal as they are less than half the price of the Artikulat 350As or the Amatis and a pair of Klimax Solos and are in the same price range as Akurate 242s with two Majik 5100s and crossovers. The SCM50ASL is essentially the same speaker with a 9" woofer instead of the 12" in the 100 and with a cabinet half as large - the midrange, tweeter and amps are the same. I haven't heard the tower versions of the speaker, mine are the box style on the ATC stands which I modified by putting spikes on the tops of the stands. The friend who recommended them to me doesn't like the towers as well as the original box types feeling they are a concession to style rather than an actual improvement.
-
Lake Jorgen
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 2008-02-14 16:38
What about Harbeth?
Another BBC-style monitor company is Hartbeth, and their speakers seems to be immensly popular, especially on the Pink Fish forum and in Japan.
I´ve just had a brief encounter with the Compact 7 model MK2 (MK3 is now on the market). It sounded very natural, open and musical. But I never did any serious listening or tune-dem.
Thomas – you seem to have a vast experience – have you ever heard them?
I´ve just had a brief encounter with the Compact 7 model MK2 (MK3 is now on the market). It sounded very natural, open and musical. But I never did any serious listening or tune-dem.
Thomas – you seem to have a vast experience – have you ever heard them?
I have not heard any of the Harbeth speakers but they do have a good reputation. I did once own a pair of Spendor BC-1 speakers which were also BBC derived designs and I quite liked them at the time but that was before I had ever heard an Isobarik and they certainly weren't in that league - in performance, size or price.
I do want to correct one impression, however. I don't believe ATC would agree with calling their speakers BBC style monitors. While ATC does indeed do a large portion of its sales to the music industry, their customer list reads like a who's who of recording and mastering studios, their speakers are not based on the BBC design principles which lead to the founding of Spendor and Harbeth. Both original Spendors and original and current Harbeth speakers were based on BBC design principles as SPENcer Hughes and Dudley HARwood were both part of the BBC research staff who went off to start their own speaker companies. Both used ideas such as thin wall cabinets with bitumen damping pads and removable front and back panels and bass or bass/mid drivers using bextrene cones with a unique curvature. Both also launched their companies with an unusual 3-way mid-size box featuring an 8" bass/mid driver with a tweeter and a super-tweeter. Finally they both used their wife's name in the company name: SpenDOR from Dorothy and HarBETH. Harbeth still makes a version of this first model called the Super HL5.
The ATCs pretty much only have the fact that they are designed for monitoring and a removable front panel in common with the BBC designs. ATC started our as a driver manufacturer (Acoustic Transducer Company) attempting to make the worlds best drivers and later went on to manufacture their own speakers. They do not use bextrene cones (or plastic cones at all) nor do they subscribe to the thin wall cabinet construction methodology. Their best speakers are based around their excellent 3" dome midrange and their woofers are treated paper cone units - all made in house. I don't want to sound like an advertisement here so I'll just recommend checking out their website at http://www.atc.gb.net if you want more information about how they design their drivers and speakers.
I do want to correct one impression, however. I don't believe ATC would agree with calling their speakers BBC style monitors. While ATC does indeed do a large portion of its sales to the music industry, their customer list reads like a who's who of recording and mastering studios, their speakers are not based on the BBC design principles which lead to the founding of Spendor and Harbeth. Both original Spendors and original and current Harbeth speakers were based on BBC design principles as SPENcer Hughes and Dudley HARwood were both part of the BBC research staff who went off to start their own speaker companies. Both used ideas such as thin wall cabinets with bitumen damping pads and removable front and back panels and bass or bass/mid drivers using bextrene cones with a unique curvature. Both also launched their companies with an unusual 3-way mid-size box featuring an 8" bass/mid driver with a tweeter and a super-tweeter. Finally they both used their wife's name in the company name: SpenDOR from Dorothy and HarBETH. Harbeth still makes a version of this first model called the Super HL5.
The ATCs pretty much only have the fact that they are designed for monitoring and a removable front panel in common with the BBC designs. ATC started our as a driver manufacturer (Acoustic Transducer Company) attempting to make the worlds best drivers and later went on to manufacture their own speakers. They do not use bextrene cones (or plastic cones at all) nor do they subscribe to the thin wall cabinet construction methodology. Their best speakers are based around their excellent 3" dome midrange and their woofers are treated paper cone units - all made in house. I don't want to sound like an advertisement here so I'll just recommend checking out their website at http://www.atc.gb.net if you want more information about how they design their drivers and speakers.
Thomas,
That is incredibly helpful. Many thanks for taking the time to make such a lengthy reply.
I appreciate that using Majik 5100s would put the 242s into the same price bracket as the ATCs (although still approx. £2,000 more than SCM50s), but I am increasingly convinced that one or other ATC models is by far the better option. I can well believe that 350As are really pretty good, but I find it hard to imagine that they are so much better than the ATCs that they would justify 2-3 times the price. I will, to be sure, try to make a proper comparison when the time comes, but I am increasingly sure that I know what the answer will be.
I should also say, by the way, that I have yet to compare the SCM50 or 100 models with my current SCM20s. My assumption has always been that the three-way models will be significantly better (in part, simply because there is a dedicated mid-range driver, but also because they have the ATC mid-range unit rather than the "hybrid" bass / mid-range used in the SCM20s).
If you will forgive one further question:
Would you expect that my SCM20s would benefit from the adjustment of the bolts that you mention you did to your SCM100s? If so, could you give me a pointer to where I might find instructions for doing so?
Many thanks once again.
That is incredibly helpful. Many thanks for taking the time to make such a lengthy reply.
I appreciate that using Majik 5100s would put the 242s into the same price bracket as the ATCs (although still approx. £2,000 more than SCM50s), but I am increasingly convinced that one or other ATC models is by far the better option. I can well believe that 350As are really pretty good, but I find it hard to imagine that they are so much better than the ATCs that they would justify 2-3 times the price. I will, to be sure, try to make a proper comparison when the time comes, but I am increasingly sure that I know what the answer will be.
I should also say, by the way, that I have yet to compare the SCM50 or 100 models with my current SCM20s. My assumption has always been that the three-way models will be significantly better (in part, simply because there is a dedicated mid-range driver, but also because they have the ATC mid-range unit rather than the "hybrid" bass / mid-range used in the SCM20s).
If you will forgive one further question:
Would you expect that my SCM20s would benefit from the adjustment of the bolts that you mention you did to your SCM100s? If so, could you give me a pointer to where I might find instructions for doing so?
Many thanks once again.
I basically agree with everything in your reply. Since I haven't heard them at home, and I'm not sure I ever will, I am being reticent about saying too much about how the Artikulat 350As would compare to the ATC 100s. But from the listening I have done my impression (and that of my girlfriend) is that the ATCs are likely the superior speaker.
Although I didn't mention it in my original post it was hearing the ATC SCM20s in my own house that first convinced me that I needed to investigate ATCs further. I had heard the 20s in the home of one of my fellow employees, who sold Aktiv Kabers to buy them, and had thought they sounded quite good driven by his LP12, Kairn and Klout. A while later, another coworker who owned a set of the 20s and was selling his system to get some cash for a house loaned me his speakers for a while to try them out. I was amazed when I found this two-way speaker had a better midrange than my Aktiv Isobariks while obviously not having the bass extension. When I mentioned my findings to the owner of the store he said that the ATC speakers were the best speaker brand that he decided not to carry. His feeling was that we would buy a demo pair and a few of the employees would buy them and then we'd never sell any due to the low WAF! That was pretty much the impetus I needed to drive the 6 hours to Chicago with the 242s in tow to compare them to the ATC 100As. Although we didn't pick up the line it is interesting to note that more of the employees of the store own ATCs than own Linn speakers in their music systems.
You are definitely correct that the 50s or 100s are a fair bit superior to the 20s due to the midrange driver only handling midrange and also have much better bass extension, tunefulness and power. While the midrange driver from ATC is a pretty special driver, the woofers are no slouches either! But you might be surprised to find that they have substantially better high frequencies as well. This is due to ATC changing to an improved tweeter compared to the one that is likely in your older 20s and was also in the 20s I borrowed. The 20s I heard sounded a little "dark" with highs that weren't all that extended or completely balanced with the mids and lows. The new tweeter is more extended and more transparent without being at all bright or harsh. So an ATC 50 or 100 will be a much more tuneful and balanced sound than what you are used to with the 20s. Also, if your 20s are not SL versions you will find that you can hear the nuances of how music is played more easily with the newer speakers as the SL technology in the current models reduces distortion substantially. Considering the improvements a 15dB reduction is said to have on the performance of the new Klimax Kontrol (which I sadly haven't heard yet) you can imagine that a similar reduction in distortion in the midrange and bass would make for a big musical improvement.
There is no question that the SCM20s would benefit from the torque adjustments - as would virtually any good speaker. First you need a good torque screwdriver. When I first started investigating the effects of precision torque adjustments on turntable performance I literally lucked into what has turned out to be pretty much the ideal torque screwdriver for this purpose. It is now used by several people including Charlie1, Paolo and Fredrik. We find it such a useful tool that Fredrik now owns four of them and I own three! It is a Sturtevant Richmont Cal 36/4 adjustable torque screwdriver. You have to be careful to make sure you get the adjustable version with the markings on the barrel as they make a fixed version without the scale as well. the Cal 36/4 is the correct model and it is calibrated form .2Nm to 4.0Nm which turns to pretty much cover the entire range of toques needed for LP12 and speaker setup. So far the highest torque I have found is for the LP12 bearing housing to the Keel which is just a bit under 4.0Nm (closer to 3.8Nm) and the lowest setting is just a touch below the .2Nm mark.
If you do a search you will find that you can purchase these new, often in a kit with a few screwdriver tips, from a number of sources but the prices will range from around $150US to over $250. However, they come up all the time on eBay at prices that are generally well under $100US. Below are two current auctions from the same company one a starting bid of $24.99 and the other a $59.99 Buy it Now or Best Offer. They are both from the same company who I just bought my third one from (for under $35) and it is actually in better condition then the main one I have been using for the last few years. They will have some markings on them and need a little cleaning up but they hold up very well and work nicely.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sturtevant-Richmont ... .m20.l1116
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sturtevant-Richmont ... 7C294%3A50
If you want a new one the best place I have found is Sears online who sells the same unit as a Craftsman tool but the Sturtevant Richmont name is clearly visible in the photo. They sell it for $149.99US which is well under the $200 + pricing of most online tool sellers. Here is a link for that.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... river#desc
The torque settings you would use on the 20 you would have to find by ear. For one thing Sturtevant-Richmont only guarantee the accuracy to plus or minus 6% and we have found differences of as little as one or two HUNDREDTHs of a Nm to be musically important. Furthermore, the drivers in your ATC 20s are both different from the ones in my ATC 100s. But I can give you a little guidance. All the fasteners on the ATCs will benefit from precision torque: tweeter, woofer, baffle to cabinet and, if applicable, tweeter faceplate to magnet assembly. In the case of my ATC 100s the settings all center around 1.4Nm with nothing above 1.5 or below 1.3Nm. Interestingly the highest torques were for the two tweeter fasteners and the lowest was for the woofer with the cabinet fasteners in the middle. This is around the range I would recommend you try but don't be afraid to go a bit lower or higher in checking for the best performance. Based on our experience with a number of speakers from Linn, Sonus faber and ATC none of the settings has been below 1.0Nm or higher than 1.6Nm other than the Linn 3K arrays which may like it a bit higher although we don't have a full consensus on them yet. Linn actually state a 2.0Nm setting for the array but Fredrik, Paolo and I all find it is more tuneful lower than that.
I think this should give you the information you need. Good luck in your speaker search an let us know how it ends up.
Although I didn't mention it in my original post it was hearing the ATC SCM20s in my own house that first convinced me that I needed to investigate ATCs further. I had heard the 20s in the home of one of my fellow employees, who sold Aktiv Kabers to buy them, and had thought they sounded quite good driven by his LP12, Kairn and Klout. A while later, another coworker who owned a set of the 20s and was selling his system to get some cash for a house loaned me his speakers for a while to try them out. I was amazed when I found this two-way speaker had a better midrange than my Aktiv Isobariks while obviously not having the bass extension. When I mentioned my findings to the owner of the store he said that the ATC speakers were the best speaker brand that he decided not to carry. His feeling was that we would buy a demo pair and a few of the employees would buy them and then we'd never sell any due to the low WAF! That was pretty much the impetus I needed to drive the 6 hours to Chicago with the 242s in tow to compare them to the ATC 100As. Although we didn't pick up the line it is interesting to note that more of the employees of the store own ATCs than own Linn speakers in their music systems.
You are definitely correct that the 50s or 100s are a fair bit superior to the 20s due to the midrange driver only handling midrange and also have much better bass extension, tunefulness and power. While the midrange driver from ATC is a pretty special driver, the woofers are no slouches either! But you might be surprised to find that they have substantially better high frequencies as well. This is due to ATC changing to an improved tweeter compared to the one that is likely in your older 20s and was also in the 20s I borrowed. The 20s I heard sounded a little "dark" with highs that weren't all that extended or completely balanced with the mids and lows. The new tweeter is more extended and more transparent without being at all bright or harsh. So an ATC 50 or 100 will be a much more tuneful and balanced sound than what you are used to with the 20s. Also, if your 20s are not SL versions you will find that you can hear the nuances of how music is played more easily with the newer speakers as the SL technology in the current models reduces distortion substantially. Considering the improvements a 15dB reduction is said to have on the performance of the new Klimax Kontrol (which I sadly haven't heard yet) you can imagine that a similar reduction in distortion in the midrange and bass would make for a big musical improvement.
There is no question that the SCM20s would benefit from the torque adjustments - as would virtually any good speaker. First you need a good torque screwdriver. When I first started investigating the effects of precision torque adjustments on turntable performance I literally lucked into what has turned out to be pretty much the ideal torque screwdriver for this purpose. It is now used by several people including Charlie1, Paolo and Fredrik. We find it such a useful tool that Fredrik now owns four of them and I own three! It is a Sturtevant Richmont Cal 36/4 adjustable torque screwdriver. You have to be careful to make sure you get the adjustable version with the markings on the barrel as they make a fixed version without the scale as well. the Cal 36/4 is the correct model and it is calibrated form .2Nm to 4.0Nm which turns to pretty much cover the entire range of toques needed for LP12 and speaker setup. So far the highest torque I have found is for the LP12 bearing housing to the Keel which is just a bit under 4.0Nm (closer to 3.8Nm) and the lowest setting is just a touch below the .2Nm mark.
If you do a search you will find that you can purchase these new, often in a kit with a few screwdriver tips, from a number of sources but the prices will range from around $150US to over $250. However, they come up all the time on eBay at prices that are generally well under $100US. Below are two current auctions from the same company one a starting bid of $24.99 and the other a $59.99 Buy it Now or Best Offer. They are both from the same company who I just bought my third one from (for under $35) and it is actually in better condition then the main one I have been using for the last few years. They will have some markings on them and need a little cleaning up but they hold up very well and work nicely.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sturtevant-Richmont ... .m20.l1116
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sturtevant-Richmont ... 7C294%3A50
If you want a new one the best place I have found is Sears online who sells the same unit as a Craftsman tool but the Sturtevant Richmont name is clearly visible in the photo. They sell it for $149.99US which is well under the $200 + pricing of most online tool sellers. Here is a link for that.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... river#desc
The torque settings you would use on the 20 you would have to find by ear. For one thing Sturtevant-Richmont only guarantee the accuracy to plus or minus 6% and we have found differences of as little as one or two HUNDREDTHs of a Nm to be musically important. Furthermore, the drivers in your ATC 20s are both different from the ones in my ATC 100s. But I can give you a little guidance. All the fasteners on the ATCs will benefit from precision torque: tweeter, woofer, baffle to cabinet and, if applicable, tweeter faceplate to magnet assembly. In the case of my ATC 100s the settings all center around 1.4Nm with nothing above 1.5 or below 1.3Nm. Interestingly the highest torques were for the two tweeter fasteners and the lowest was for the woofer with the cabinet fasteners in the middle. This is around the range I would recommend you try but don't be afraid to go a bit lower or higher in checking for the best performance. Based on our experience with a number of speakers from Linn, Sonus faber and ATC none of the settings has been below 1.0Nm or higher than 1.6Nm other than the Linn 3K arrays which may like it a bit higher although we don't have a full consensus on them yet. Linn actually state a 2.0Nm setting for the array but Fredrik, Paolo and I all find it is more tuneful lower than that.
I think this should give you the information you need. Good luck in your speaker search an let us know how it ends up.
Hi Thomas - I know you are not saying that Linn speakers are no good, just that your ATCs were better than the 242s you tried. However, I wonder what Linn speakers you think you could happily live with (other than Isobariks of course) as I think I'm right in saying that you're not entirely convinced by some of them. I know Fredrik has mentioned that there is something about the 242 bass he doesn't like which is significant enough for him to prefer 212s instead. Do you have similar experiences with any Linn speaker?
I know we must always listen ourselves when ever possible and personally I'm not looking to upgrade my own speakers in the near future, but as someone who often looks to the 2nd hand market, it would be good to know your thoughts whilst we're on the topic (or there abouts).
I know we must always listen ourselves when ever possible and personally I'm not looking to upgrade my own speakers in the near future, but as someone who often looks to the 2nd hand market, it would be good to know your thoughts whilst we're on the topic (or there abouts).
Thomas,
Many thanks once again for making such a helpful (and comprehensive!) reply.
Although I know I should not jump to premature conclusions, I am increasingly convinced that the SCM50s will prove to be the right long-term answer for me. (Everything you have said has reinforced the impression I have of the 242s, and I can't justify to myself the cost of new 350As.)
All being well, I should be able to listen to a pair of SCM50s in the next couple of weeks. (And I will also be looking for a suitable torque screwdriver!)
Thanks again ....
Many thanks once again for making such a helpful (and comprehensive!) reply.
Although I know I should not jump to premature conclusions, I am increasingly convinced that the SCM50s will prove to be the right long-term answer for me. (Everything you have said has reinforced the impression I have of the 242s, and I can't justify to myself the cost of new 350As.)
All being well, I should be able to listen to a pair of SCM50s in the next couple of weeks. (And I will also be looking for a suitable torque screwdriver!)
Thanks again ....
Just noticed I still hadn't answered this. I find both the Isobariks and Keltiks to be speakers that, properly driven, still outperform the vast majority of what is out there. Overall I do like the 242s, they just don't do for me what the ATCs do, but I have to point out that I still haven't heard the latest versions which are supposed to be an improvement top to bottom (better arrays and much improved bass performance, according to Linn). As my store tends to sell a lot more Sonus faber speakers in the upper price ranges we do not have all the Linn models on display so there are a few models I've never really heard under controlled circumstances including the Akurate 212 and the Artikulat/Klimax 320A. There are also any number of less expensive Linn speakers that I feel are/were good value for the money including Kans, Katans, Espeks, Kabers, Ninkas, etc. and even SARAs, which I think are definitely underrated.Charlie1 wrote:Hi Thomas - I know you are not saying that Linn speakers are no good, just that your ATCs were better than the 242s you tried. However, I wonder what Linn speakers you think you could happily live with (other than Isobariks of course) as I think I'm right in saying that you're not entirely convinced by some of them. I know Fredrik has mentioned that there is something about the 242 bass he doesn't like which is significant enough for him to prefer 212s instead. Do you have similar experiences with any Linn speaker?
I know we must always listen ourselves when ever possible and personally I'm not looking to upgrade my own speakers in the near future, but as someone who often looks to the 2nd hand market, it would be good to know your thoughts whilst we're on the topic (or there abouts).
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Music Lover
- Very active member
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- Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
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Heard the new 242 and they are no bass monster, quite the opposite actually.ThomasOK wrote: Overall I do like the 242s, they just don't do for me what the ATCs do, but I have to point out that I still haven't heard the latest versions which are supposed to be an improvement top to bottom (better arrays and much improved bass performance, according to Linn).
But better than mkI.
Thomas, you really need to hear properly tuned Komris :mrgreen:
It's all about musical understanding!
Well, I am delighted to say that I have just ordered a pair of ATC SCM50s. Once I was able to listen to a pair, it took no time at all to realise that they are exactly what I'm looking for. I'm sorry to say that, for what I want, I don't feel that any of the Linn models short of the 350As (the price of which I could not justify to myself) are in the same league.
I would hesitate to try to describe why, but the '50s certainly were considerably more detailed, not muffled in any way (although that really is overstating what I felt was one of the shortcomings of my SCM20s) and far better balanced. More importantly, they were just altogether more exciting!
Many thanks again for all the replies and advice.
I would hesitate to try to describe why, but the '50s certainly were considerably more detailed, not muffled in any way (although that really is overstating what I felt was one of the shortcomings of my SCM20s) and far better balanced. More importantly, they were just altogether more exciting!
Many thanks again for all the replies and advice.
Hi Thomas,ThomasOK wrote: The torque settings you would use on the 20 you would have to find by ear. For one thing Sturtevant-Richmont only guarantee the accuracy to plus or minus 6% and we have found differences of as little as one or two HUNDREDTHs of a Nm to be musically important. Furthermore, the drivers in your ATC 20s are both different from the ones in my ATC 100s. But I can give you a little guidance. All the fasteners on the ATCs will benefit from precision torque: tweeter, woofer, baffle to cabinet and, if applicable, tweeter faceplate to magnet assembly. In the case of my ATC 100s the settings all center around 1.4Nm with nothing above 1.5 or below 1.3Nm. Interestingly the highest torques were for the two tweeter fasteners and the lowest was for the woofer with the cabinet fasteners in the middle. This is around the range I would recommend you try but don't be afraid to go a bit lower or higher in checking for the best performance. Based on our experience with a number of speakers from Linn, Sonus faber and ATC none of the settings has been below 1.0Nm or higher than 1.6Nm other than the Linn 3K arrays which may like it a bit higher although we don't have a full consensus on them yet. Linn actually state a 2.0Nm setting for the array but Fredrik, Paolo and I all find it is more tuneful lower than that.
I think this should give you the information you need. Good luck in your speaker search an let us know how it ends up.
this morning I removed the grills of my 350Ps in order to try different torque settings for my speakers. As reference I checked the (Linn) torque settings first: The 3K array is 2.0 Nm, midbass 1.4 Nm, but the two (lower) bass drivers are at 3.0-3.1 Nm. Is it normal that the Linn bass setting is so far out of your recommended range (1.0-1.6, except 3K array around 2.0)?
Is there any possibility of damaging the speaker/driver by going down to 1.0 and going up from there?
Can you tell me what´s on the other side of the screws - behind the metal plate/inside the K350?
Hopefully something solid.
No, this is perfectly safe and suggest that's what you do. It's only too high torques that are dangerous. Almost all Linn speakers have metal inserts, but with excessive torques you start crushing the wooden wall in between screw and nut (insert).jiddu_k wrote:Is there any possibility of damaging the speaker/driver by going down to 1.0 and going up from there?
Personally I'd start below 0.8, because I've found some loudspeaker fasteners to be optimal below 1.0. Starting with the higher frequency units is the easiest, gradually moving down towards the lower bass.
If you gradually increase from a low torque, please note that the good sounding torques can sometimes be more than one single value. E.g. if you find 1.2 to sound good (better than 1.1 and 1.3) , write down that value and then continue up. There might be another "peak" at 1.7, which you'll later need to compare with 1.2.
Hi Fredrik,
thank you for your explanation. I suspected that only high torque settings can cause damage. I´ll start at below 0.8 then. My torque going from 0.3-1.2 Nm even has .05 steps. The one above 1.2 has .1 steps. Once I have found the general peaks I´ll try smaller steps though I´m not sure this is possible on my torque.
thank you for your explanation. I suspected that only high torque settings can cause damage. I´ll start at below 0.8 then. My torque going from 0.3-1.2 Nm even has .05 steps. The one above 1.2 has .1 steps. Once I have found the general peaks I´ll try smaller steps though I´m not sure this is possible on my torque.
I see Fredrik has answered most of your questions and I have also answered some on the Linn forums so I think you've got it pretty well covered. I just wanted to point out that I fully agree with Fredrik on starting at .8Nm (or even a bit below to allow for differences in different drivers). Additional research conducted after the above quote from me has come up with a value just a touch above .8Nm for the 3K Arrays as the one Fredrik and I prefer and values for Akurate and Artikulat woofers and midbass drivers at just a touch over 1.0Nm. So I would modify what I posted earlier to say that virtually all speakers have fallen within the range of .8NM to 1.8Nm including the 3K Arrays.jiddu_k wrote:Hi Fredrik,
thank you for your explanation. I suspected that only high torque settings can cause damage. I´ll start at below 0.8 then. My torque going from 0.3-1.2 Nm even has .05 steps. The one above 1.2 has .1 steps. Once I have found the general peaks I´ll try smaller steps though I´m not sure this is possible on my torque.
Thanks Thomas,
just wanted to post my findings as I stopped trying diffenert torque settings for now - having confirmed the results by one week of listening.
My new settings (K350P) are:
3k-0.95 Nm
Midbass 1.05 Nm
Lowbass 1.1 Nm
As one can see they´re all in the range of Thomas´ and Fredrik´s recommendations and also near their expected peaks.
Bringing down the 3K array from about 2.0 Nm to 0.95 Nm made the biggest difference - clearly audible improvement right from my starting point of 0.7 Nm. Dave Douglas´ "Just say this" from the album "Strange Liberation" got really spooky.
Going in small (0.05) steps is highly recommended because it´s really like a mountain range as Thomas once described it. Lot of ups and downs - small peaks and valleys. It´s also neccessary to loosen each fastener before applying such small changes (in order to overcome static friction).
As the 3K array is so easy accessible and made such a big difference in my system I definitely recommend trying this.
just wanted to post my findings as I stopped trying diffenert torque settings for now - having confirmed the results by one week of listening.
My new settings (K350P) are:
3k-0.95 Nm
Midbass 1.05 Nm
Lowbass 1.1 Nm
As one can see they´re all in the range of Thomas´ and Fredrik´s recommendations and also near their expected peaks.
Bringing down the 3K array from about 2.0 Nm to 0.95 Nm made the biggest difference - clearly audible improvement right from my starting point of 0.7 Nm. Dave Douglas´ "Just say this" from the album "Strange Liberation" got really spooky.
Going in small (0.05) steps is highly recommended because it´s really like a mountain range as Thomas once described it. Lot of ups and downs - small peaks and valleys. It´s also neccessary to loosen each fastener before applying such small changes (in order to overcome static friction).
As the 3K array is so easy accessible and made such a big difference in my system I definitely recommend trying this.
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Tony Tune-age
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- Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
- Location: United States
All the fasteners on my Isobarik speakers need tightened periodically. However, over an extended period of time, I have learned how much each screw needs to be tightened through listening 8) .
An allen wrench is used for adjusting the midrange drivers and woofers. And the tweeters need a screw driver for adjustments. Both tools don't have neuton meter markings, so I adjust according to sound 8) . But it has become easy to know how much tightening is needed for optimum performance of each speaker component :!:
An allen wrench is used for adjusting the midrange drivers and woofers. And the tweeters need a screw driver for adjustments. Both tools don't have neuton meter markings, so I adjust according to sound 8) . But it has become easy to know how much tightening is needed for optimum performance of each speaker component :!:
Tony Tune-age