The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Defender »

just to back up Charlie a little bit I have also heard if tracking force is too low the needle bounces between left and right groove wall like a car between the crash barrier and that can damage the records ... however as long as tracking is fine lowest forces should make the least wear.

@Ron your description of the Entity took away the last bit of resistance to buy it. I am really happy with it - so thank you.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Spannko »

I’m sure there will be an optimum tracking force. Not too light, and not too heavy. “Just Right” as Goldilocks would say.

It would make a good playground experiment. Use a record you don’t particularly like, start at 0.1g and gradually increase the downforce in 0.1g increments to 3g and share the results.

Wherever it sounds best, will be the best downforce. Simples.
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by V.A.MKD »

Defender wrote: 2020-05-09 12:59 just to back up Charlie a little bit I have also heard if tracking force is too low the needle bounces between left and right groove wall like a car between the crash barrier and that can damage the records ... however as long as tracking is fine lowest forces should make the least wear.

@Ron your description of the Entity took away the last bit of resistance to buy it. I am really happy with it - so thank you.
I also have heard similar stories and they are absolutely right, BUT ... there is always but ...

Defender and Charlie you are right in the case were Tracking Force is too low ... record will be damaged ...

What Ron is saying is Optimal (or The Best) Tracking Force = to Optimal (or The Best) Musicality ... This Optimal / Best Musicality can't be reached if the Tracking Force is too low / high, because of needle bounces between channels ... The Best Musicality, can be reached, with the best tracking force and needle is optimally "travel" in record and extract highest musicality ...

Issue here is Calibration of the scale and level of precision / accuracy of scale ... If it is wrong you can go too low / high and damage the needle or record ... I have seen several needles and a lot of damaged records of my friends, because of wrong scale of trucking force and wrong scale of anti skating ... That's why, good, with high precision (1/100 or even better 1/1000) of electronic / digital scale is so important ...

This is my opinion, maybe I'm wrong ...

P.S. I have damage (many years ago) my Micro Acoustics because of ... :-(
Music First ...
Vlado
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks everyone.

I will set by ear then and hope this is for the best - as Ron suggested before.
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by V.A.MKD »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-05-09 17:14 Thanks everyone.

I will set by ear then and hope this is for the best - as Ron suggested before.
Hi Charlie,

If I may suggest ... Check everything ...

First alignment protractor ... check geometry ...
Find / Borrow fine Digital Scale and adjust weight in factory optimum range ...
And than as Ron suggested by ear and Tune Method fine adjustment ... up and down from factory recommended range.

When you find optimum ... you will have optimum in every aspect technical and musical ...

When you will be happy with musicality ... cartridge will be as well happy in it travel through your record collection ... :-)

Good luck and enjoy ...
Music First ...
Vlado
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by ThomasOK »

Vlado's system makes sense. It is a good idea to use a pressure gauge to make sure you are starting at the manufacturer recommended force or the center of the range but you then have to tune by ear. Otherwise you could be off a fair bit and end up picking the best of a few sub-optimum settings. Grado used to recommend 1.5 grams for most of their cartridges but I found some were most musical at 1.5, some 1.6 and others 1.7. About a year ago I noticed they had changed the instructions to 1.5 to 1.7 grams.

Tracking force is much like air pressure in a tire, either too high or too low will cause more wear than if you get it just right. You want the best contact possible between the stylus and the groove. It is somewhat intuitively obvious that you will get that when adjusted by ear to get the most music out of the groove. If you have an Ekos arm do note what has been posted on the difference between actual tracking force and what the dial indicates, and how to optimize actual and indicated force for the most musical results. It is covered quite thoroughly in this thread:

https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... hilit=EKOS
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Vlado and Tom.

I had taken the effort to use your method with my main deck but just never got around to it on the Valhalla one. I will make the effort soon.
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Crashing and Bouncing

Post by Ron The Mon »

Defender wrote: 2020-05-09 12:59 just to back up Charlie a little bit I have also heard if tracking force is too low the needle bounces between left and right groove wall like a car between the crash barrier and that can damage the records ...
Defender,
We have all read this myth before.

Let me explain some facts further by asking as questions:
If you were to play a run-in or run-out groove with no modulations, is a needle with tracking force too low damaging it? Then at what frequencies is the damage occurring?

We have all seen extreme woofer excursions so know that cartridges pick up frequencies near zero hertz. Lower your tracking force in that instance and the excursion doesn't increase or decrease. So damage isn't in the low frequencies. We know we can't hear damage at ultrasonic frequencies because we can't hear them. So at exactly what frequencies of "bouncing" or "crashing" is damage occurring?

Let's say it's exactly and only 831.7hz. If we play a record with 831.7hz recorded only in the left channel with "recommended" tracking force, will it cause the stylus to crash against the right channel and that channel is now damaged? And if we lighten the tracking force, will even more damage occur? Once the damage occurs and the record is now permanently damaged, does this mean it can no longer be damaged again as this exact frequency has been changed?

What if we recorded an album with 831.7hz in each channel but half a second apart? Would we create a feedback loop where the damage becomes exponential?

Damage could only be done two ways with a clean stylus. First, is it carving away the vinyl? If so, why haven't any of us seen black dust on our turntables? Second, is it reshaping the grooves? That would mean music is changed into noise. How could that occur if the tracking weight is so low?

What about amplitude? At exactly which frequency and amplitude is this all happening?


The only problem with a tracking force set too light is if a warp causes it to jump out of the groove. That is a real problem and can happen when there is no frequency or amplitude cut into the record.

Ron The Mon
Needle-Freak
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Entity

Post by Ron The Mon »

Defender wrote: 2020-05-09 12:59 @Ron your description of the Entity took away the last bit of resistance to buy it. I am really happy with it - so thank you.
Defender,
You made several interesting comments about attributes to the Entity in your review I agree with as well. However, I still have resistance.

Ron The Mon
Needle-Freak
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Defender »

I just wanted to say thank you - there was no intention to change your mind - I know your position and I know there is more involved than „just“ buying the Entity ... it also means living with higher running costs for an MC system.
I was just retrospectively impressed how much/what you heard even from the completely fresh unit.
Also thank you for taking time to explain the above.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Spannko »

Ron,

If we go with your view that the stylus doesn’t bounce around in the groove (evidence for that would be helpful). What would you say is happening when the tracking force is adjusted from lower than recommend through to higher than recommended, and how does this affect musicality?
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Where Is The Pudding?

Post by Ron The Mon »

Spannko wrote: 2020-05-09 22:35 Ron, If we go with your view that the stylus doesn’t bounce around in the groove (evidence for that would be helpful).
Spannko,
You want me to prove that something which doesn't exist, doesn't exist?

The burden of proof is on those who believe in this folklore.
What would you say is happening when the tracking force is adjusted from lower than recommend through to higher than recommended, and how does this affect musicality?
You should be asking the cartridge manufacturers why they recommend a specific range or specific force. As Tom Mentioned above, Grado recommended 1.5 grams for over 40 years on most of their models. Physics haven't changed so how will records now become ruined if played at a lower force?

I don't understand the problem; my hi-fi sounds great. My records play musically better now than in over 45 years of having a high-end system. There is a lower noise floor and less suface noise. No "end of side distortion". Very clear sounding. There is no damage to even a single record. What is the problem?

I am not saying set all tracking force below the recommended range or set all cartridges at 1.5 grams. To be clear, I am saying experiment and find what sounds best. When I had a Linn Troika, I set it at the recommended 1.75 grams and tried many values above and below. Turns out it sounded best at 1.75 grams! The anti-skate did sound better at a lower setting. No records were harmed and I got over 1300 hours of use out it.

Audio Technica should be aware that for best performance the AT95E and new VM series sound best around 1.5 grams as they've sold 6 million of these over 40 years! It's probable they recommend a higher range because they know most of them will end up on cheap turntables (and arms) set up by amateurs. It is best to err on the high side as too low a force can cause bouncing in a cueing device. I've seen cartridges that as they're lowered tend to go back because of anti-skate set too high. The easy way to remedy this is set the tracking force higher.

I have never seen a disclaimer by Audio Technica or any other cartridge manufacturer saying using a tracking force lower than recommended will void their warranty, damage the stylus, or damage records.

I am going to keep playing records on my LP12 with an AT-VM95C set at 1.5 grams and anti-skate at 1 gram because that's where it sounds best.

Ron The Mon
Needle-Freak
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Spannko »

Mr Pig
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 57
Joined: 2020-05-05 21:42

Re: AT-VM95C Q&A

Post by Mr Pig »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-08 01:44There are several differences between the two cartridges besides the bodies....
Thank you. Some great information there. To be honest, I'm so happy with the way the K9/conical sounds that I'm not feeling the need to change anything. It sounds great and better than any set-up I had on my LP12. Better than the Ittok/Troika, better than the modified RB300/OC9. There isn't a down side, it's just plain better in every way. Delighted! :0)
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks Spannko. Interesting read.

My thoughts on this has always been that if the tracking force and anti-skating are both optimized by ear to the highest level of musicality, it seems very likely that the "tracking" of the stylus in the groove is also optimized.

And if the "tracking" of the stylus in the groove is optimized, it seems very likely that this will cause low wear on the record. If not the lowest possible, then at least pretty close to it.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-05-10 13:27
Thanks Spannko. Interesting read.

My thoughts on this has always been that if the tracking force and anti-skating are both optimized by ear to the highest level of musicality, it seems very likely that the "tracking" of the stylus in the groove is also optimized.

And if the "tracking" of the stylus in the groove is optimized, it seems very likely that this will cause low wear on the record. If not the lowest possible, then at least pretty close to it.
That’s what I think too. If we don’t optimise by ear, we end up optimising by numbers, which will never do !!!
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

More Bogus Information

Post by Ron The Mon »

Spannko,
Are you aware you're promoting bogus information?

The link you've attached is from a Singapore distributor, not Audio Technica, who you are leading folks here to believe wrote this fallacy. Notice their continued use of the word "manufacturer", not "Audio Technica". How many other wholesalers of Audio Technica around the world promote the "bouncing", "chipping away" fallacy? What about Audio Technica themselves?

Also in this PDF document S.E.A. says to replace ALL (not just AT models) styli, after 300 hours. This is complete nonsense!!! Look at the actual information from Audio Technica I've linked to multiple times throughout this thread for correct replacement of styli and usage. I have actually purchased cartridges and replacement styli from Audio Technica. Every one came in a sealed box with an instruction sheet listing lifespan; 500 hours in the case of the Conical version. It says so right on the instruction sheet. Are you going to believe a Singapore distributor copy and pasting specious info or the actual documentation included in the product they distribute?!?

What you linked to is worse than what Amazon copy and paste in much of their hi-fi descriptions promoting phony information.

What exactly are you trying to prove? I have been enthusiastically promoting on this thread; tune-dem, source-first principles, and ways to get the most musical turntable system for the least money. I have used facts, actual long-term experience, photos, and audio comparisons.

Why are you against that?

Ron The Mon
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Spannko »

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: More Bogus Information

Post by lejonklou »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-05-10 17:48
Spannko,
Are you aware you're promoting bogus information?

The link you've attached is from a Singapore distributor, not Audio Technica, who you are leading folks here to believe wrote this fallacy. Notice their continued use of the word "manufacturer", not "Audio Technica". How many other wholesalers of Audio Technica around the world promote the "bouncing", "chipping away" fallacy? What about Audio Technica themselves?

Also in this PDF document S.E.A. says to replace ALL (not just AT models) styli, after 300 hours. This is complete nonsense!!! Look at the actual information from Audio Technica I've linked to multiple times throughout this thread for correct replacement of styli and usage. I have actually purchased cartridges and replacement styli from Audio Technica. Every one came in a sealed box with an instruction sheet listing lifespan; 500 hours in the case of the Conical version. It says so right on the instruction sheet. Are you going to believe a Singapore distributor copy and pasting specious info or the actual documentation included in the product they distribute?!?

What you linked to is worse than what Amazon copy and paste in much of their hi-fi descriptions promoting phony information.

What exactly are you trying to prove? I have been enthusiastically promoting on this thread; tune-dem, source-first principles, and ways to get the most musical turntable system for the least money. I have used facts, actual long-term experience, photos, and audio comparisons.

Why are you against that?

Ron The Mon
Calm down, Ron. Nobody's picking a fight with you, so skip the accusational tone.

What is happening is that your info is being questioned. My suggestion is that you welcome that with open arms. It's a necessity for progress.
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by beck »

Here is a man with some interesting thoughts on the subject:

https://youtu.be/WmwnN_T_wW8

Listening only from 46 minutes to 48 you get an example that might support the thought that it is not so much about the tracking force, more about how the needle of a certain cartridge behave in the groove. It has to do with how well behaved it acts depending on the “quality” of the cartridge.

If this also makes for the most musical reproduction of a record? I do not know?
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Spannko »

Really interesting beck, thanks for sharing.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by tokenbrit »

beck wrote: 2020-05-11 08:31 Here is a man with some interesting thoughts on the subject:

https://youtu.be/WmwnN_T_wW8

Listening only from 46 minutes to 48 you get an example that might support the thought that it is not so much about the tracking force, more about how the needle of a certain cartridge behave in the groove. It has to do with how well behaved it acts depending on the “quality” of the cartridge.

If this also makes for the most musical reproduction of a record? I do not know?
Interesting. On that basis, fixed coil should be better behaved, and Soundsmith should (have the potential to) be amongst the best sounding cartridges, but I haven't read much about them... Of course, sound quality doesn't necessarily equal musical performance, but there's certainly a lot there about the management of stored energy* within the cart, and behaviour of the needle in the groove. I can see how tracking force plays a part in that, but it appears that there are plenty of other factors to consider, in the context of the system.

* all seems to come back to managing vibration, as usual ;)
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by beck »

I can kind of see now why magnetic tape has an advantage to all the other ways of music replay. I guess that the contact between the tape head and the tape is not disturbed the same way by vibrations.

I guess tape is the real deal not sampling sound bits along the way!?

It has other problems but none the less........

Just for fun but maybe we can learn something by listening to this. The music plays at the end:

https://youtu.be/fr8O_jZhpl4



Maybe this discussion should be moved elsewhere.......
Playing cd’s…………
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: AT-VM95C Q&A

Post by tokenbrit »

Mr Pig wrote: 2020-05-10 10:43 .. I'm so happy with the way the K9/conical sounds that I'm not feeling the need to change anything. It sounds great and better than any set-up I had on my LP12. Better than the Ittok/Troika, better than the modified RB300/OC9. There isn't a down side, it's just plain better in every way. Delighted! :0)
[Please move if this isn't the right place for the question, and apologies if this has been asked before...]
Prompted by Mr Pig, but an open question to those in the know: since a K9/conical &/or various shapes of AT(-VM)95 threaten to better the Adikt, and sounds better than a Troika or OC9, what's the next step up from a 95(C) & best MM phono stage/Slipsik? Does Krystal+Entity beat VM95/Adikt+Slipsik, or do you have to budget for better than a Krystal to make it worth stepping up to MC? (asking as the owner of an OC9 & Linto ;)

Further, at what point in the hierarchy does cartridge start to factor in as the 'next upgrade' - is Lingo 4 'good enough' to switch to MC, or does MC make no sense until Radikal? Or, put it another way, keep enjoying MM of choice with Slipsik & Lingo, until funds allow you to get Radikal and motor on to MC/Entity... (after taking a spin on the Karousel ;)
Mr Pig
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 57
Joined: 2020-05-05 21:42

Re: AT-VM95C Q&A

Post by Mr Pig »

tokenbrit wrote: 2020-05-12 17:54Further, at what point in the hierarchy does cartridge start to factor in as the 'next upgrade'
Such a good question. Frankly, I do not know.

Linn used to dem the Ittok/Troika against the Ekos/Basik and the latter won. Now I would have said that the difference in performance between the Ittok and Ekos was smaller than difference between the Troika and the Basik but clearly not. Or rather it's not as important.

But how much does it cost to get to a turntable that will overcome the difference between a basic and an advanced cartridge? There are so many variables.
Post Reply