The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by jffsnfrd »

Ron,

I fully appreciate your efforts in bringing the virtues of the VM95C to light. Indeed, I purchased a Sturtevant Richmont Torque Products model CAL-36/4 Roto-Torq 1/4 drive off of ebay a few days ago for $30 and am waiting for its arrival. The thread you started and have been adding to regularly is brilliant. I was born in Detroit, raised in the suburbs, traveled and worked with people around the globe. My dream was to be an electronics engineer, designing and building the most phenomenal music reproduction systems but calculus and physics killed me, so I am jealous of your access to "toys". Alas, I got my degree in microbiology and have been working with DNA probes in the field of cancer genetics for the past 28 years. Listening to and collecting records is my main hobby. Your thread has inspired me to play around with my several cartridges and styli in a more scientific fashion before ordering a VM95C for myself. I am learning again that I don't know as much as I thought.
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Now The Fun Begins

Post by Ron The Mon »

jffsnfrd wrote: 2020-09-25 07:33 I fully appreciate your efforts in bringing the virtues of the VM95C to light. Indeed, I purchased a Sturtevant Richmont Torque Products model CAL-36/4 off of eBay a few days ago for $30 and am waiting for its arrival.
Jeff,
Fantastic! Fun times ahead.

My offer still stands; if you agree to post audio/video comparisons on this thread, I will ship an AT-VM95C to you. Send me a private message with your shipping address.

There is a bit of a learning curve for the CAL-36/4 so practice before using it on the small Philips screw on top of the K9/ATs as that one is very easy to strip.

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by ThomasOK »

Actually, I was gone before the K series cartridges came out in 1986-88 and I was had left by the end of 1984. I'd be interested to know what torques you ended up with on the VM95. We are now a dealer for Audio Technica as they finally set up Hi-Fi dealerships in the US so we are stocking the C and E models. We just ran out of VM95e but I'll try some torques myself when we get some more in.

PS. I'm still waiting for my free VM95c. ;-)
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Re: Lions and Tigers and Modulations, OH-MY!!

Post by jffsnfrd »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-09-23 22:51
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-09-23 21:42 This may or may not factor into this discussion, but I thought I should note that different companies often use different modulation levels on the record for their output level specs. This makes them often much harder to compare.
Tom,
I just realized you may have been working for Audiophile Systems during the release of the K9. How modulated was their test record? I know you didn't do the testing as the figure would have been far more accurate, like 4.387mV output at modulation level 3.5, first pressing #837567.

The Linn Adikt (and variant Goldring 1042, which I have owned) is rated at 6.5mV output. Does anyone have an opinion (using their ears) if it is louder than a K9? I have directly compared a K9 to a 1042 and didn't notice a difference. I remember being told the Rega RB100 (which is my all-time favorite cartridge after the Troika) overloaded most phono stages. The RB100 cartridge is also a 1042 variant and is louder than a K9, but not by much.

Hmmm. Those damn modulations must be at it again.

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Ron,

Since I had just dismounted my Adikt and remounted my old K9 for the first time in 33 years, I figured why not remount the Adikt right away to address your question. Anyway, there is no real volume difference. The Adikt sounds more lively/dynamic while the K9 has a more prominent bass. This is with an n value of 1. FWIW, I have a tape deck set up in paused record mode with digital meters that agrees or more likely infuenced me into saying the volumes are the same.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by jffsnfrd »

I know it's a tangent but after the Adikt to K9 to Adikt exercise, I mounted up a Shure M91ed with NOS N91ed stylus in the Ittok LVII and it is about 25% louder then either of the Linn carts and sounding very nice at 1 gram.
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Break Torque or Brake Torque?

Post by Ron The Mon »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-09-25 17:59 I'd be interested to know what torques you ended up with on your VM95.
Tom,
Read this post for my headshell torques to date.

Read this post for my tiny philips screw torque to date. I only changed this once as it might be counter-productive screwing in and out of plastic repeatedly. Since I have multiple bodies, I may experiment in the future.

About a year back, Tom and I compared our main torque drivers and they were different by one and a half notches. So to anyone else out there, I'd advise starting at my torque and dialing it in by ear.

Something I haven't previously mentioned is that while experimenting with torques on the AT-VM95 body, I cracked the plastic around one of the threaded inserts. The body can take really high torques but is not indestructible. I only noticed the (very slight) crack when I removed the headshell. Interestingly, when I replaced it with a new body, it sounded identical. As the AT-VM95 body sounds best with the included aluminum screws, you can't damage it as the screw head will break before the plastic.

We are now a dealer for Audio Technica as they finally set up Hi-Fi dealerships in the US so we are stocking the C and E models. We just ran out of VM95e but I'll try some torques myself when we get some more in.

PS. I'm still waiting for my free VM95c. ;-)
Tom,
I'll contact you in a few days to buy two of the AT-VM95C. I need one shipped to jffsnfrd and one for you.

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by ThomasOK »

I was kidding about the free VM95C, just couldn't resist ribbing you after your offer to jffsnfrd.

The torques are not too surprising (especially as I came up with the .2-11 on a Rega Carbon made by Audio Technica). The .2-4 I will have to try on the next one I set up. I just installed a VM95EN on a table for a customer and ended up at .2+3 but I didn't go below .2 even in the testing. So something new to try next time. I agree you have to be careful with the top screw, and occasionally one comes pre-stripped from the factory.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

The VM95C is stupid good. Like I've heard some of the more expensive carts and I'm not sure they offer more in a way that makes them worth it.

However however however....

You need at least a 13gram headshell. I have an 18gram on the way to try. (if it's better but worse I'll try a 15gram before I determine 13gram is perfecto)

It sounds mediocre on an average 7-8gram headshell.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Charlie1 »

JH. wrote: 2020-10-14 03:35 You need at least a 13gram headshell. I have an 18gram on the way to try. (if it's better but worse I'll try a 15gram before I determine 13gram is perfecto)

It sounds mediocre on an average 7-8gram headshell.
Hi JH
How do you know its the weight and not how well the body grips the headshell or stylus or some other factor?
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

I use a shim to improve coupling between the lighter headshells and the AT (shim is from the sorta cardboard paper that is used in tapes of electronics, it's thinner than cereal box). That improved the sound with all my carts on the lighter headshells. However until I switched to a 13g I wasn't sold on the AT. It was fun, but wasn't quite right, and I was enjoying other carts as much. Then it pretty well soared above them and hasn't come off since I put the 13g on.

The reason why I put it on the 13g was partly curiosity but also partly because my other headshells weighed more so it was hard to get the counter weight set for the AT. And when I heard it, it cleaned up all the problem stuff from before.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Charlie1 »

OK, thanks JH.

I've just stuck with the K9 metal body since my dealer rates it and I love the deck as it is - I must be getting old and letting go of my perfectionist side. That's not to say it wouldn't be better with the AT body. Not sure what the K9 body weighs.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

The K9 has a higher tracking force. I'm actually curious how similar the AT95C is to the AT-VM95c. The E's might be the same but I don't know about the C's.
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Answers? Questions! Questions? Answers!

Post by Ron The Mon »

JH. wrote: 2020-10-15 00:59 The K9 has a higher tracking force. I'm actually curious how similar the AT95C is to the AT-VM95c. The E's might be the same but I don't know about the C's.
JH.,
The Linn K9 (and K5, and K18) have essentially the same recommended tracking force as an AT-95, AT-93 (is this what you meant by "AT95C"), and entire AT-VM95 range.

A few questions regarding your contributions here:
1) What turntable and tonearm do you have?
2) Specifically, what are the brand and material type headshells you've used with the AT-VM95C?
3) Are you using the same mounting hardware on each headshell?

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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

And yes I mean the AT-VM95c specifically. The c version is conical. The tracking force for it is 1.5-2.2g, the K9 is I think 2-2.5g or 2-3g (I forgot already) for the conical tip. (people who disregard the conicals are trying to squeeze something unnatural out of the grove I think)

1. I have multiple turntables and arms but as an example I have a modified JVC DD QL-7 (plinth is not stock) that plays very well with the cart. (I also use a custom stainless steel mat with 1 degree slope and a 760g stainless weight for tight coupling)
2. I've tried it on a vintage JVC headshell, two different AT headshells (about to be a third), and the generic headshell.
3. Yes, it has specific screws that came with it.

My extra VM95c arrives today and the 18g headshell is sitting at the ready :)
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Discodave »

Interesting discussion. I'm not a fan of expensive cartridges:
1) I cant afford them
2) They need replaced
3) Cartridges by their nature can be accidentally broken, snapped etc
4) Their position in tt hierarchy means money best spent elsewhere.

Given this I have enjoyed the ATF7 on Basik Plus arm since I have owned my LP12 (7 years). It was time to replace it and a situation arose where for not.much more money I could avail of a brand new Rega Ania. I am very much enjoying this cartridge.

However, I do think that the Basik plus is not doing it justice. Given the comments in this thread would it be an idea to downgrade the cartridge to something akin to Ron's suggestions and use potential sale funds to invest in a decent 2nd hand Ittok?
LP12, Lingo 3, Cirkus/Kore, Tramp 2, Basik Plus Ania, Linto
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

Discodave wrote: 2020-10-17 15:04 Interesting discussion. I'm not a fan of expensive cartridges:
1) I cant afford them
2) They need replaced
3) Cartridges by their nature can be accidentally broken, snapped etc
4) Their position in tt hierarchy means money best spent elsewhere.

Given this I have enjoyed the ATF7 on Basik Plus arm since I have owned my LP12 (7 years). It was time to replace it and a situation arose where for not.much more money I could avail of a brand new Rega Ania. I am very much enjoying this cartridge.

However, I do think that the Basik plus is not doing it justice. Given the comments in this thread would it be an idea to downgrade the cartridge to something akin to Ron's suggestions and use potential sale funds to invest in a decent 2nd hand Ittok?
Give the AT-VM95c a try with a AT-LH13H headshell... All in less than 120-150$. Replacement styluses are 20$

The one note I have is to use a little bit of non-hardening clay in the corners of the stylus to prevent movement on the cart. VERY little is needed, excess squeezes out to be picked off (with tooth pick for example).

Worst case scenario you have a nice new headshell.

And then, yes, there's money to be spent elsewhere... phono stages, custom metal mats, etc.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by ThomasOK »

JH. wrote: 2020-10-17 15:53
Discodave wrote: 2020-10-17 15:04 Interesting discussion. I'm not a fan of expensive cartridges:
1) I cant afford them
2) They need replaced
3) Cartridges by their nature can be accidentally broken, snapped etc
4) Their position in tt hierarchy means money best spent elsewhere.

Given this I have enjoyed the ATF7 on Basik Plus arm since I have owned my LP12 (7 years). It was time to replace it and a situation arose where for not.much more money I could avail of a brand new Rega Ania. I am very much enjoying this cartridge.

However, I do think that the Basik plus is not doing it justice. Given the comments in this thread would it be an idea to downgrade the cartridge to something akin to Ron's suggestions and use potential sale funds to invest in a decent 2nd hand Ittok?
Give the AT-VM95c a try with a AT-LH13H headshell... All in less than 120-150$. Replacement styluses are 20$

The one note I have is to use a little bit of non-hardening clay in the corners of the stylus to prevent movement on the cart. VERY little is needed, excess squeezes out to be picked off (with tooth pick for example).

Worst case scenario you have a nice new headshell.

And then, yes, there's money to be spent elsewhere... phono stages, custom metal mats, etc.
The problem with this is that the Basik Plus does not have a removable headshell, so that wouldn't work. But to answer the question from Discodave, yes, there is no question that a used Ittok with good bearings (as the vast majority have) with an AT VM95c will be much more musically satisfying than the Ania/Basik Plus combination. The Ittok was a very fine arm and IMHO it takes a current $2400 arm to get in the same league.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Discodave »

Many thanks for input JH and Tom.

Just thinking as I have the Linto I am only set up for MC. Dont wish to make things overly complicated so perhaps downgrading the cartridge wont fly.

Another thought, and although I'm not intending change anytime soon, would be by my reckoning a 2nd hand standard Radikal PSU could be obtained for twice the amount of the 2nd hand Ittok (and without any of the risk of unseen/untested bearings, etc.). This I imagine coupled with Basik Plus/Ania would be much greater bang for buck performance wise. Even with the BasikPlus being a bottleneck.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by Discodave »

Perhaps a bit more than twice as much but if lucky I've seen them not to wide in this disparity.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-17 16:17
JH. wrote: 2020-10-17 15:53
Discodave wrote: 2020-10-17 15:04 Interesting discussion. I'm not a fan of expensive cartridges:
1) I cant afford them
2) They need replaced
3) Cartridges by their nature can be accidentally broken, snapped etc
4) Their position in tt hierarchy means money best spent elsewhere.

Given this I have enjoyed the ATF7 on Basik Plus arm since I have owned my LP12 (7 years). It was time to replace it and a situation arose where for not.much more money I could avail of a brand new Rega Ania. I am very much enjoying this cartridge.

However, I do think that the Basik plus is not doing it justice. Given the comments in this thread would it be an idea to downgrade the cartridge to something akin to Ron's suggestions and use potential sale funds to invest in a decent 2nd hand Ittok?
Give the AT-VM95c a try with a AT-LH13H headshell... All in less than 120-150$. Replacement styluses are 20$

The one note I have is to use a little bit of non-hardening clay in the corners of the stylus to prevent movement on the cart. VERY little is needed, excess squeezes out to be picked off (with tooth pick for example).

Worst case scenario you have a nice new headshell.

And then, yes, there's money to be spent elsewhere... phono stages, custom metal mats, etc.
The problem with this is that the Basik Plus does not have a removable headshell, so that wouldn't work. But to answer the question from Discodave, yes, there is no question that a used Ittok with good bearings (as the vast majority have) with an AT VM95c will be much more musically satisfying than the Ania/Basik Plus combination. The Ittok was a very fine arm and IMHO it takes a current $2400 arm to get in the same league.
Ah. There are headshell weights that could be used to tune.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

Discodave wrote: 2020-10-18 18:15 Many thanks for input JH and Tom.

Just thinking as I have the Linto I am only set up for MC. Dont wish to make things overly complicated so perhaps downgrading the cartridge wont fly.

Another thought, and although I'm not intending change anytime soon, would be by my reckoning a 2nd hand standard Radikal PSU could be obtained for twice the amount of the 2nd hand Ittok (and without any of the risk of unseen/untested bearings, etc.). This I imagine coupled with Basik Plus/Ania would be much greater bang for buck performance wise. Even with the BasikPlus being a bottleneck.
Enjoy the merry-go-round...
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by ThomasOK »

Discodave wrote: 2020-10-18 18:15 Many thanks for input JH and Tom.

Just thinking as I have the Linto I am only set up for MC. Dont wish to make things overly complicated so perhaps downgrading the cartridge wont fly.

Another thought, and although I'm not intending change anytime soon, would be by my reckoning a 2nd hand standard Radikal PSU could be obtained for twice the amount of the 2nd hand Ittok (and without any of the risk of unseen/untested bearings, etc.). This I imagine coupled with Basik Plus/Ania would be much greater bang for buck performance wise. Even with the BasikPlus being a bottleneck.
Yes, the Radikal would be a much bigger upgrade than the Ittok. Ron the Mon sold an Ittok and bought a Basik Plus (or was it a Basik LV-X) as well as selling a Klyde and buying an AT95e, to fund a Radikal. He has never looked back.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by V.A.MKD »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-27 23:13 Yes, the Radikal would be a much bigger upgrade than the Ittok. Ron the Mon sold an Ittok and bought a Basik Plus (or was it a Basik LV-X) as well as selling a Klyde and buying an AT95e, to fund a Radikal. He has never looked back.
This is really good one ... way of LP12 with MM.

"He has never looked back" says a lot or everything.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

The leads on the 18gram headshell are not compatible, broke one. I have new connectors to make new ones so I can report back on headshell weight increase.
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Re: The Mighty AT95E Becomes The AT-VM95E

Post by JH. »

I tried the 18gram and I do not recommend it. I had to solder direct to the VM95 to make it fit.
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