"Them", also for me in this match-up. "Us" sounded like I was listening to the radio, a very good one although, like a Kremlin or a NAT-01.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-01-29 00:56 Still a tough one. Overall I like Them better as Us sounds a bit too smoothed over. Them can sound a bit aggressive at times but I find I can hear what the players are doing better and follow the flow more. Could I possibly have a half scoop of each, blended?

I feel the same. Them may be a tad rushed, but Us is lacking something.

Musically I find it hard to pick one of them. Them sure sounds more open, but I try to ignore that.

markiteight wrote: ↑2021-01-29 00:39 To me 'without' is okay with the music being slow and lets it be slow. 'With' seems to want to push the pace...
Same comparison, but this time correcting a grievous error as pointed out by Tom:

Us: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1tx0pcoo6egyg ... A.MOV?dl=0

Them: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jurdoa70wa1fc ... 2.MOV?dl=0

I could relate to your description of with & without. Going with Us this time - just felt easier to appreciate - hoping that's consistent with 'without'... but not too worried as I enjoyed listening to the clips, good either way.

"Them" for me.

Another vote for "Them"

For me Them.
Slightly ... very slightly ... easier to follow ...

tokenbrit wrote: ↑2021-01-29 05:13

markiteight wrote: ↑2021-01-29 00:39 To me 'without' is okay with the music being slow and lets it be slow. 'With' seems to want to push the pace...
Same comparison, but this time correcting a grievous error as pointed out by Tom:

Us: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1tx0pcoo6egyg ... A.MOV?dl=0

Them: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jurdoa70wa1fc ... 2.MOV?dl=0

I could relate to your description of with & without. Going with Us this time - just felt easier to appreciate - hoping that's consistent with 'without'... but not too worried as I enjoyed listening to the clips, good either way.

It looks like you need to be more inclusive as the rest of Us preferred Them. But being one of Them I think it is safe to say that we will still allow you to be With Us, Without undue concern.

Out of my way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-01-29 17:21 It looks like you need to be more inclusive as the rest of Us preferred Them. But being one of Them I think it is safe to say that we will still allow you to be With Us, Without undue concern.

Out of my way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind.

Thank you for showing that it's not a case of with Us or against Us; I'm just not quite ready to be one of Them yet. I'm still trying to work out what it means to be one of Us, or rather an Us of one... Off to listen to Peter Gabriel to see if that helps ;p

You guys are so funny.

tokenbrit wrote: ↑2021-01-29 18:13

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-01-29 17:21 It looks like you need to be more inclusive as the rest of Us preferred Them. But being one of Them I think it is safe to say that we will still allow you to be With Us, Without undue concern.

Out of my way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind.

Thank you for showing that it's not a case of with Us or against Us; I'm just not quite ready to be one of Them yet. I'm still trying to work out what it means to be one of Us, or rather an Us of one... Off to listen to Peter Gabriel to see if that helps ;p

If them were to offer you some tea and a slice would that be enough to entice you?

This has been a fun and fascinating comparison. So what were we listening to?

With/Us: Bog standard Wiremold UL100BC (as used in the previous comparison)

Without/Them: Another UL100BC with circuit breaker bypassed.

I feel like there's something missing from Them - not sure it is "some tea and a slice". Them has more gusto, but less feeling - it just comes across as a little musically cold; needs a bit more warmth... so maybe it does need a good brew, and some hot cross buns :)
Us, on the other hand, has a kind of blanketing warmth to the music, which works at the beginning, but could do with a coffee to get it going, especially when the dynamics are (meant to) kick in from the middle of the clip(s)
I think most of us (not Us ;) are somewhere around the middle, it's just that I'm a bit more Us than Them. Like when Tom said "half scoop of each"; that's probably not too far off for me either - I'd maybe go 60/40

PS: just saw the Us/with so I am consistently inconsistent :/

Well tokenbrit, it appears I am too (at least if I can follow all this, which I'm not sure of). But you nailed one thing: Them is missing something - a circuit breaker!

However, if bypassing the breaker involved soldering it will be 4 months before you know what it really sounds like. ;-) Aren't I helpful?

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-01-30 16:56 .. if bypassing the breaker involved soldering...

I was wondering how the breaker was bypassed, and whether that needed any break-in... :? (maybe I need a break :p )

Better to need a break than a bypass...

OscarH wrote: ↑2021-01-30 17:28 Better to need a break than a bypass...

Quite... :)

markiteight wrote: ↑2021-01-29 21:56 This has been a fun and fascinating comparison. So what were we listening to?

With/Us: Bog standard Wiremold UL100BC (as used in the previous comparison)

Without/Them: Another UL100BC with circuit breaker bypassed.

Hi,
I did a quick search but did not see anywhere what exactly your set-up is, can you please list all the components -including mods if any- used in all these A/B comparisons, Thank you.

tokenbrit wrote: ↑2021-01-29 22:19 I feel like there's something missing from Them - not sure it is "some tea and a slice". Them has more gusto, but less feeling - it just comes across as a little musically cold; needs a bit more warmth... so maybe it does need a good brew, and some hot cross buns :)
Us, on the other hand, has a kind of blanketing warmth to the music, which works at the beginning, but could do with a coffee to get it going, especially when the dynamics are (meant to) kick in from the middle of the clip(s)
I think most of us (not Us ;) are somewhere around the middle, it's just that I'm a bit more Us than Them. Like when Tom said "half scoop of each"; that's probably not too far off for me either - I'd maybe go 60/40

PS: just saw the Us/with so I am consistently inconsistent :/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIYoyvW3J9Q

I think I get where you're coming from with your desire for a bit more warmth. I try to avoid the discussion of tonal balance as it ultimately shouldn't matter, but I've noticed that every time I make a major musical breakthrough it is associated with a sense of warmth that wasn't there before. This could be pure coincidence, but I do think you're on to something. Let's see if we can find a way to crank up the heat a bit:

Column A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qtr7e2msv6rdp ... 3.MOV?dl=0

Column B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cpd6dl92a5ji3 ... D.MOV?dl=0

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-01-30 16:56 However, if bypassing the breaker involved soldering it will be 4 months before you know what it really sounds like. ;-)

No soldering involved! They use crimped Panduit quick connects so it was almost plug 'n play. I just had to swap out one of the connectors for one with the correct orientation and fortunately I had the exact type they used on hand so it was a very straight forward modification.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-01-30 16:56 Aren't I helpful?

You have your moments. ;-)

tpetsch wrote: ↑2021-01-30 23:37 Hi,
I did a quick search but did not see anywhere what exactly your set-up is, can you please list all the components -including mods if any- used in all these A/B comparisons, Thank you.

Here you go:
https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=4&t=4608

markiteight wrote: ↑2021-01-31 02:19 Let's see if we can find a way to crank up the heat a bit:

Column A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qtr7e2msv6rdp ... 3.MOV?dl=0

Column B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cpd6dl92a5ji3 ... D.MOV?dl=0

'Column B' clip wouldn't play in my browser, via the link, so had to listen to them each after downloading first... Taking a break from listening via my phone, so... my laptop says A :)

Update: curiously both links work now; no need to listen to the downloads... More curiously, it seems to change how the clips sound, relative to each other - they seem closer now, but it doesn't change the result for me.
B didn't sound warmer downloaded; if anything it sounded a fraction lighter in the vocals... Clicking on the links they're closer in sound, but A still seems a bit better musically.
Now the question is, do I stick with the laptop, or revert to the phone for listening to these clips?

markiteight wrote: ↑2021-01-31 02:19 I think I get where you're coming from with your desire for a bit more warmth. I try to avoid the discussion of tonal balance as it ultimately shouldn't matter, but I've noticed that every time I make a major musical breakthrough it is associated with a sense of warmth that wasn't there before. This could be pure coincidence, but I do think you're on to something. Let's see if we can find a way to crank up the heat a bit.

I can relate to this. In my search for better cd replay I made it my task to try to get more “sound” out of the signal meaning that I wanted to get away from what some call skeletal sound.

Column B makes me relax into the music but with a slight feeling of too much warmth. I suspect that column A is the one I wrote you had to keep in sight because it sounded good and it still does. I listen using my ipad.

tpetsch wrote: ↑2021-01-31 03:38 Hi,
I did a quick search but did not see anywhere what exactly your set-up is, can you please list all the components -including mods if any- used in all these A/B comparisons, Thank you.

Here you go:
https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=4&t=4608

Thank you for the link. ..."B" for me this time, a little more effortless in presentation than "A".

beck wrote: ↑2021-01-31 03:18 I suspect that column A is the one I wrote you had to keep in sight because it sounded good and it still does. I listen using my ipad.

Well done, Beck. You're right! Column A is still the 6 socket Koppla, column B the modified Wiremold. I'm on the fence with this one. I could happily live with either. With A I get more of a sense that I'm standing among the musicians, while with B they sound a bit more cohesive. I'd be interested to hear what others think as well.

Here's another comparison that's an evolution of the above. Still trying to dethrone that pesky Koppla!

Beavers: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xk30uuh0pgcjj ... 6.MOV?dl=0

Ducks: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mik4hjbskraqo ... E.MOV?dl=0
(mixing up the movie references because I'm running out of ideas)

Ducks.............

Beavers for me mainly because I can make out the subtle natural acoustic guitar note resonances more clearly.

Ducks.