Cheap power strips for best sound.

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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by V.A.MKD »

@markiteight check this several posts:
https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... 507#p53507
can be moved here ...
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by tokenbrit »

markiteight wrote: 2021-01-20 06:57 Well folks, it looks like we have the first upset of the season.

A: (2x) Ikea Koppla 3 outlet power strip (as suggested by Tokenbrit), daisy chained. $5.00

B: Cablepro Revelation. No Longer Available. Retailed for $580.00

This came as quite a surprise to me, as I have been thoroughly enjoying the Revelation for the past couple weeks. It's really quite musical but it definitely has a more impressive, hi-fi sound to it too...
Not what I wanted to read... :p But means there's possible improvements to be heard from my system ;)

Do you know which Revelation you have? There were a few variants...
Doing a search, the Revelations that I found online have star grounding. There's also Revelation and Revelation II, but I don't know what the official differences were between them... There was a also a 'noisetrapper' Revelation (II), but it should say on the label. Then, there's the NANA version, recommended by Stereophile, but that one doesn't say Revelation on the label...

I'm not saying that any of the above will change the unusually unanimous result; just that I'd be curious to know which Revelation we're comparing. I'll have to check the specs of my R II ... and buy some Kopplas :)
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by ThomasOK »

OK, so now we need an 8 outlet Koppla. I have been using a CablePro Revelation II for years having found it better than a few other units I tried, including a Wiremold unit. For some reason the later Revelation units didn't have a number. They were essentially the same as the Revelation II but with a pad of anti-RF woven stuff on the bottom. I have this on one of my Revelation IIs. I think the original Revalation had different outlets and the NANA has daisy chain wiring of the plus and minus connections with a star ground and a permanently attached power cable.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by tpetsch »

I tried one of those NANA Revalations strips years ago with poor results, wiremold & SL Waber -no Breaker, no Switch type- strips were more musical. ...Interesting about these 5Buck Koppla units though, I'll order a few, can always use them round the house if they are not as good as the SL Wabers I've been using for over 20 years.

Another thing I have done to improve the sound/AC line noise is running a dedicated line -HiFi only- from the panel using 10/3 Romex wired to a pair of hospital grade 20A duplex outlets.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

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tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-20 15:38 Not what I wanted to read... :p But means there's possible improvements to be heard from my system ;)

Do you know which Revelation you have? There were a few variants...
Doing a search, the Revelations that I found online have star grounding. There's also Revelation and Revelation II, but I don't know what the official differences were between them... There was a also a 'noisetrapper' Revelation (II), but it should say on the label. Then, there's the NANA version, recommended by Stereophile, but that one doesn't say Revelation on the label...
I'm fairly certain it's an original Revelation. It came with the original box (label is identical to the one you pictured) and manual and nowhere does it say "RevelationII", however Cablepro was consistently inconsistent with their labeling. The Integrity's label, for example, says "Noisetrapper IntegrityII" even though none of the noise reduction bits are present. I have tried to open up the Revelation's case and take a peek inside but the brass hardware they chose to use on the Revelation is so soft it's like trying to unscrew room temperature butter. They just strip. I found the correct hardware online so I can drill out the stripped screws and replace them. I'll get in there eventually. I did open up the Integrity:
Image

It's hard to see in that image but each duplex pair is wired in parallel, rather than each individual outlet[*]. That means the odd numbered sockets are wired directly to the input while the even numbered sockets receive their power via the internal jumpers on the receptacle. As I have four mains leads in my system I briefly tried connecting them to just the odd numbered sockets and didn't like the results, but I think this deserves further investigation.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-20 15:38 I'm not saying that any of the above will change the unusually unanimous result; just that I'd be curious to know which Revelation we're comparing. I'll have to check the specs of my R II ... and buy some Kopplas :)
It might be worth holding off. It's unlikely the champion was revealed in the first round (but not impossible!). Then again, for 5 bucks why not?
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-20 19:52 OK, so now we need an 8 outlet Koppla.
Would 6 be sufficient? I have one of these to try out as well. My main concern with that device is it plugs into both sockets and IIRC it's best practice to connect to only one. We'll have to see how it fares.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-20 19:52 I have been using a CablePro Revelation II for years having found it better than a few other units I tried, including a Wiremold unit.
I'd still like to try one of the Wiremolds just to see where it falls but they don't come up for sale very often so it may be a while.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-20 19:52 For some reason the later Revelation units didn't have a number. They were essentially the same as the Revelation II but with a pad of anti-RF woven stuff on the bottom. I have this on one of my Revelation IIs. I think the original Revalation had different outlets and the NANA has daisy chain wiring of the plus and minus connections with a star ground and a permanently attached power cable.
I'm a bit fuzzy on what qualifies as star grounding, but I believe all the Cablepros have it. Each duplex has a common ground lug and those lugs are tied directly back to the ground pin on the IEC socket. Is that enough to qualify for star grounding or does it need to be a common point on the chassis that is then tied back to the ground source?
tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-20 23:53 I tried one of those NANA Revalations strips years ago with poor results, wiremold & SL Waber -no Breaker, no Switch type- strips were more musical. ...
Interesting! I was contemplating trying one of these strips with the sockets rewired in series, but it sounds like that may not be worth the effort. I found a Tripp-Lite 6 outlet strip with a very short mains lead that I'm going to try, as well as the current version of the Waber you have been using. Even if they have circuit breakers they're worth a go as it appears if you want something with a cord and more than 3 outlets that's what you're going to get.
tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-20 23:53 Interesting about these 5Buck Koppla units though, I'll order a few, can always use them round the house if they are not as good as the SL Wabers I've been using for over 20 years.
It should be noted, as Ikea isn't very clear about this, 5 bucks gets you two Kopplas. I didn't realize this, ordered two, and got four.


[*]For those not familiar with North American mains sockets, they are most commonly configured as "duplex" with two sockets in a common housing. Each socket has its own set of terminals and they are also linked together via a set of removable jumpers. This provides several configuration options: a single mains wire can be connected to one set of terminals and power both sockets (as in the picture above), another wire can be connected to the 2nd set of terminals and (with the jumpers in place) send power to another duplex socket (I imagine this is how the NANA version is wired), or the jumpers can be removed and each socket wired to a different circuit.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by OscarH »

Did a spot check on the EU offerings. It seems IKEAs unswitched Koppla (“Connect” in Swedish for anyone that may have wondered but not wondered enough to look it up) is only available as a 3-way here as well.

Other webshops do sell unswitched strips with up to 12 outlets so they don’t appear to be illegal here, however less and less common.

One clue came from sorting on “most popular” on the Clas Ohlson website: not many people seem to buy umswitched strips with a large number of sockets.

So, as with many other things, the demands of the hifi world are at the very fringe of the market.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

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Hi markiteight! (I finally know what that means having watched The Big Lebowski for the first time a couple weeks ago.) A couple answers. My main system needs seven connections: Radikal, two SINGularity, two SM and two TM. (The Quads are on 115 Volts and the power feed to them makes absolutely no difference to the sound.) Because of this the six outlet device you show wouldn't work. A six outlet Koppla might as I could try connecting the Radikal to the other outlet of the duplex receptacle. This one receptacle is 230 Volts. I once had everything on 230 but found that even having the power cable plugged into the CD12 I had on loan made the LP playing system a little less musical. So I moved the CD12 (which I no longer have, and honestly hardly used when I did), the Kremlin, the HAKAI and the switch to a separate 115 volt strip. Without the CD player I could use a Koppla on those.

Yes, running the wires from each duplex receptacle back to the IEC connector is a star connection. All CablePro units are star grounded and most are star wired to plus and neutral, but the NANA uses jumpers for plus and neutral from one duplex receptacle to the next and star for ground only. I was sent a NANA unit to try out and I felt the Revelation II was substantially better. So did the Ted Paisley, who made them, but unfortunately is no longer with us.

The cheap outlet strips that have been found to be best have generally been ones that have a single piece of brass running the length of the strip for each of the three wires. These are connected to the wires (and switch when included) at the power end. They have brass fingers welded to the strips to grab the blades. Some also have them to grip the round ground prong and others have holes punched in the brass strip that grip the prong. So the units without stitches and circuit breakers, like the Koppla, have no internal wires. This simplicity of connection seems to me the likely reason for the musical performance. I think the best bet for what I want to do may be to find an 8 outlet strip built with the same internal brass strips and just to wire past any switches direct to the strips. Many of them can be easily opened with a screwdriver so the conversion wouldn't be too difficult. Just too bad it has to be done at all.

There are some multiple-outlet strips without breakers or switches available in the US but those I have seen use a line of single outlets all wired together daisy-chain fashion in a long, thin metal strip. They don't seem likely candidates to me.

I have actually been planning to investigate the AC wiring part of my system for some time but the lovely foibles of my system have made that difficult for the last half year or more. One of the things I have been concerned about with the Revelation strips is that they use teflon coated, silver-plated copper wiring. In the experience of Fredrik and myself pure copper has always been more musical than silver or silver-plated copper. So although the Revelation has sounded better to me than others I have tried so far I felt there was likely room for improvement. The inability to find a cheap outlet strip here like the one Fredrik likes has kept me from messing with them so far so I have been looking forward to your tests. But I have a second Revelation that I rewired internally with Volex wire similar to the latest Lejonklou US AC cable. I think I used the 14 gauge version (as indicated would be preferable from Fredrik's comments) but otherwise the same construction. I also wired it in a little different fashion. I wasn't going to mention it until I could post comparisons but it seems like now is appropriate. I am burning it in, and an alternative cable from the wall to it, on the 115 Volt components and will eventually get my system back together and be able to test it.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by tokenbrit »

Not sure I understand the logic (not that logic necessarily applies here) that is if I understand the sequence correctly...

Star ground; daisy live & neutral - not so good (NANA)
Star ground; star live & neutral - "substantially better" (Revelation)
Cheap outlets (solid brass 'daisy'?) - can be musically good
Multiple outlets (wired daisy chain) - what makes these unlikely candidates?

US wiring tends to be daisy-chain, rather than star, doesn't it? If mixing wiring topologies (NANA) is worse, is a daisy chain topology within a distribution block inherently better musically, somehow, than star wiring? (assuming a decent (enough) connection) Are there any all daisy-chain CablePros?

Looking forward to the next round(s) as well as Thomas' findings once his system is back on song. Especially interested to find out if rewiring, and using a better power cord into a Revelation improves matters, as 3-outlet Kopplas aren't so practical with monos... (maybe it's time to Boazu? ;)
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by ThomasOK »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-22 04:54 Not sure I understand the logic (not that logic necessarily applies here) that is if I understand the sequence correctly...

Star ground; daisy live & neutral - not so good (NANA)
Star ground; star live & neutral - "substantially better" (Revelation)
Cheap outlets (solid brass 'daisy'?) - can be musically good
Multiple outlets (wired daisy chain) - what makes these unlikely candidates?

US wiring tends to be daisy-chain, rather than star, doesn't it? If mixing wiring topologies (NANA) is worse, is a daisy chain topology within a distribution block inherently better musically, somehow, than star wiring? (assuming a decent (enough) connection) Are there any all daisy-chain CablePros?

Looking forward to the next round(s) as well as Thomas' findings once his system is back on song. Especially interested to find out if rewiring, and using a better power cord into a Revelation improves matters, as 3-outlet Kopplas aren't so practical with monos... (maybe it's time to Boazu? ;)
Multiple outlets (wired daisy chain) - what makes these unlikely candidates?
Multiple outlets daisy chained have 3 wires going from the IEC connector to the first outlet pair, another set of 3 short pieces of wire going from the first pair of outlets to the second pair of outlets, another set of 3 short pieces of wire going from the second pair of outlets to the third pair of outlets and another set of 3 short pieces of wire going from the third pair of outlets to the fourth pair of outlets. So the AC is going through lot of mechanical connections (7 of them to the last outlet pair) and one solder connection to the IEC.

On the "Cheap outlets (solid brass 'daisy'?)" there is only one connection from the wire to the brass strips. There are, of course, welds involved in the positive and neutral connections but those are likely better connections that the screw connections of wire to the terminals on the duplex outlets. (This may be different on EU outlet strips as I don't know how the contact is made to the pins.) So the AC flows through the brass to each item plugged in. I dont think that daisy chain would be the correct term for this.

Whereas on the daisy chain, multiple outlet strip the AC flows from the IEC through wires to the screw* terminals on the first duplex outlet, through the metal of the outlet to the second set of terminals which are screwed to the second set of wires that go to the first set of terminals on the second duplex outlet, "and so on and so on and so on". Likely not the best way to do things.

*Most duplex outlets in the US have both screw terminals and the ability to just push the wire into a hole that grips it. I don't know which is the best way but I haven't seen the holes used often on strips, as opposed to in walls where it is pretty customary. It may not work that well with wire that isn't solid core.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by John »

Years ago Naim USA recommended a nine outlet power strip made by Wiremold. I assume it was well put together. I have one and use it for my home theatre setup.

For my two channel setup I cut off the three plugs on my Exposure amps and wired them to one 20 amp plug. I have it plugged into a 20 amp dedicated duplex wall outlet along with my Lingo.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

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John wrote: 2021-01-22 20:36 Years ago Naim USA recommended a nine outlet power strip made by Wiremold. I assume it was well put together. I have one and use it for my home theatre setup.

For my two channel setup I cut off the three plugs on my Exposure amps and wired them to one 20 amp plug. I have it plugged into a 20 amp dedicated duplex wall outlet along with my Lingo.
Yes, the older Wiremold / SL Waber strips were very good, NAIM -NANA- did recommend them but they are unfortunately no longer made. Both Wiremold & SL Waber -SL Waber now owned by Tripp Light- still make strips but no longer without switches and/or Breakers and it was the unswitched/no breaker type models that NAIM recommended. I have several of these, both made by SL Waber & Wiremold and they have always served me well, from time to time you can find used ones for sale on Ebay. ...BTW NAIM just recommended these strips in the US, they were not special made or anything, just off the shelf Wiremold & SL Waber strips when Hi-fi shops needed to supply customers with a quality strip that didn't mess up the sound, this was all back in the day before the "Accessories" market exploded..
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-22 18:49 Multiple outlets daisy chained have 3 wires going from the IEC connector to the first outlet pair, another set of 3 short pieces of wire going from the first pair of outlets to the second pair of outlets, etc... So the AC is going through lot of mechanical connections (7 of them to the last outlet pair) and one solder connection to the IEC.

On the "Cheap outlets (solid brass 'daisy'?)" there is only one connection from the wire to the brass strips... the AC flows through the brass to each item plugged in. I dont think that daisy chain would be the correct term for this.
Thanks Tom, I appreciate the clarification. Yes, I did wonder whether the sequence of connections might be the downfall of wired daisy-chaining. I wasn't sure what to call it when there's a brass strip...
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

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tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-22 22:49
John wrote: 2021-01-22 20:36 Years ago Naim USA recommended a nine outlet power strip made by Wiremold. I assume it was well put together. I have one and use it for my home theatre setup.

For my two channel setup I cut off the three plugs on my Exposure amps and wired them to one 20 amp plug. I have it plugged into a 20 amp dedicated duplex wall outlet along with my Lingo.
Yes, the older Wiremold / SL Waber strips were very good, NAIM -NANA- did recommend them but they are unfortunately no longer made. Both Wiremold & SL Waber -SL Waber now owned by Tripp Light- still make strips but no longer without switches and/or Breakers and it was the unswitched/no breaker type models that NAIM recommended. I have several of these, both made by SL Waber & Wiremold and they have always served me well, from time to time you can find used ones for sale on Ebay. ...BTW NAIM just recommended these strips in the US, they were not special made or anything, just off the shelf Wiremold & SL Waber strips when Hi-fi shops needed to supply customers with a quality strip that didn't mess up the sound, this was all back in the day before the "Accessories" market exploded..
Good info, thanks. Wish they had a like button on this forum.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

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ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-21 19:33 Hi markiteight! (I finally know what that means having watched The Big Lebowski for the first time a couple weeks ago.)
Excellent! Now you know what I'm talking about when I say my screen name was my second choice as I just couldn't justify "carefulmantheresabeveragehere". Perhaps after we've all been poked in the arm a couple times we can meet at the Lebowski Bar in Reykjavik for a round of White Russians.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-21 19:33 I was sent a NANA unit to try out and I felt the Revelation II was substantially better. So did the Ted Paisley, who made them, but unfortunately is no longer with us.
Okay. I think it's clear that we needn't bother exploring that route.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-21 19:33 The cheap outlet strips that have been found to be best have generally been ones that have a single piece of brass running the length of the strip for each of the three wires. These are connected to the wires (and switch when included) at the power end. They have brass fingers welded to the strips to grab the blades. Some also have them to grip the round ground prong and others have holes punched in the brass strip that grip the prong. So the units without stitches and circuit breakers, like the Koppla, have no internal wires. This simplicity of connection seems to me the likely reason for the musical performance. I think the best bet for what I want to do may be to find an 8 outlet strip built with the same internal brass strips and just to wire past any switches direct to the strips. Many of them can be easily opened with a screwdriver so the conversion wouldn't be too difficult. Just too bad it has to be done at all.
Like this?
Image
That's the 6 socket Koppla's guts. I haven't opened up the 3 socket Koppla yet but I assume it's the same parts. The external prongs are attached to the brass bars with some rather feeble looking crimps and I'm tempted, after comparing it in stock form, to try soldering those joints for better contact.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-21 19:33 There are some multiple-outlet strips without breakers or switches available in the US but those I have seen use a line of single outlets all wired together daisy-chain fashion in a long, thin metal strip. They don't seem likely candidates to me.
I've seen those too and wondered what makes them able to get away with eliminating switches and breakers that they can't do on a more compact format.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-21 19:33 I have actually been planning to investigate the AC wiring part of my system for some time but the lovely foibles of my system have made that difficult for the last half year or more. One of the things I have been concerned about with the Revelation strips is that they use teflon coated, silver-plated copper wiring. In the experience of Fredrik and myself pure copper has always been more musical than silver or silver-plated copper. So although the Revelation has sounded better to me than others I have tried so far I felt there was likely room for improvement. The inability to find a cheap outlet strip here like the one Fredrik likes has kept me from messing with them so far so I have been looking forward to your tests. But I have a second Revelation that I rewired internally with Volex wire similar to the latest Lejonklou US AC cable. I think I used the 14 gauge version (as indicated would be preferable from Fredrik's comments) but otherwise the same construction. I also wired it in a little different fashion. I wasn't going to mention it until I could post comparisons but it seems like now is appropriate. I am burning it in, and an alternative cable from the wall to it, on the 115 Volt components and will eventually get my system back together and be able to test it.
After reading about your and Fredrik's findings I had the same concerns about the Revelation's internal wiring. I'm planning to try swapping the Integrity's wiring (14ga solid core copper) into the Revelation in place of its fancy-pants wiring. I figured I'd do this outside of this comparison as it's not a realistic solution for someone coming to this thread looking for a cheap and good power strip, but maybe it should be included for posterity. Your solution is a bit more reasonable so I'm eager to hear how your modified Revelation performs.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-22 04:54 Star ground; star live & neutral - "substantially better" (Revelation)
Just to clarify, the Revelation doesn't use a star live and neutral arrangement. It's more like a combination of series and parallel, with the duplex pairs wired in parallel, and the individual sockets within each duplex connected in series.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-22 04:54 Cheap outlets (solid brass 'daisy'?) - can be musically good
Multiple outlets (wired daisy chain) - what makes these unlikely candidates?

I feel like we need to listen to a few more candidates before making any conclusions. I have the next batch of recordings ready to go...just waiting for iCloud to stop being recalcitrant.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-22 04:54 US wiring tends to be daisy-chain, rather than star, doesn't it? If mixing wiring topologies (NANA) is worse, is a daisy chain topology within a distribution block inherently better musically, somehow, than star wiring? (assuming a decent (enough) connection) Are there any all daisy-chain CablePros?
When you refer to "US wiring" are you taking about how the mains wiring is configured in the home, or how the "average" power strip is wired?

AFAIK there aren't any all daisy (series) wired Cablepros as it appears Ted used off-the-shelf duplex sockets for his products. However, I believe there was another model above the Revelation and I know nothing about it. That doesn't mean we couldn't daisy chain a Cablepro ourselves!
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-22 04:54 Looking forward to the next round(s) as well as Thomas' findings once his system is back on song. Especially interested to find out if rewiring, and using a better power cord into a Revelation improves matters, as 3-outlet Kopplas aren't so practical with monos... (maybe it's time to Boazu? ;)
Okay, that makes the decision easy, I'll keep posting my experiments here regardless of their viability. It would be really nice to find a good product with enough sockets that everyone can safely use it regardless of their system's complexities. I really hope the daisy chained Kopplas can be bettered by something more practical as it really isn't a safe solution.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-22 18:49 *Most duplex outlets in the US have both screw terminals and the ability to just push the wire into a hole that grips it. I don't know which is the best way but I haven't seen the holes used often on strips, as opposed to in walls where it is pretty customary. It may not work that well with wire that isn't solid core.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe all North American duplex outlets have gone away from the push-in style connectors for safety reasons, but there are millions upon millions of them still out there. For what its worth my system is plugged into one of those push-in style sockets that's original to the house, so it's 60-ish years old. Its replacement is on the list, and I was thinking something like this would be sufficient unless someone has found a particular model that's good.
John wrote: 2021-01-22 20:36 Years ago Naim USA recommended a nine outlet power strip made by Wiremold. I assume it was well put together. I have one and use it for my home theatre setup.
That's the Wiremold L10320 that I've been watching out for. I would much prefer to find one used as I can sell it on for what I paid for it if it doesn't make the cut, plus when it first came out it was ~$40 like all the other "higher end" industrial grade power strips, but once Wiremold caught wind that audiophools were snapping them up like hotcakes the price jumped to over $100 practically overnight. My local Naim dealer lists them for $145, and AVOptions will sell you one that's been cryo dipped and screwed to a block of wood for $450. Next!
John wrote: 2021-01-22 20:36 For my two channel setup I cut off the three plugs on my Exposure amps and wired them to one 20 amp plug. I have it plugged into a 20 amp dedicated duplex wall outlet along with my Lingo.
I believe that's what is commonly referred to as a hydra configuration? Conceptually it makes sense but from what I've seen it hasn't been well received outside of Naim circles.
tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-22 22:49 Yes, the older Wiremold / SL Waber strips were very good, NAIM -NANA- did recommend them but they are unfortunately no longer made.
The Wiremold is still available, but it's possible they are remaining stock and are no longer being produced.
tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-22 22:49 Both Wiremold & SL Waber -SL Waber now owned by Tripp Light-
Wiremold went though a buyout a few years ago too. I believe they're Legrand now.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by markiteight »

Sorry for the delay. It's been a busy week and I haven't had time to make another batch of recordings 'till now. So without further ado:

X: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y3atbrrvu6h5a ... 8.MOV?dl=0

Y: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pl4gx6uyo4kiq ... 4.MOV?dl=0
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by beck »

Mark your X setup. You are going to get back to this one! I love listening to it.........

Y is a little blurred compared to X.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by OscarH »

X for me too.

It’s like the upper harmonics gel better on the guitar and vocal.

I only listened to the first 30s, so only just heard the bass drum come in.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by tokenbrit »

X here as well
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by ThomasOK »

Yep, mark it X for me.

The photo of the inside of the 6 outlet Ikea unit is exactly the type of thing I was talking about. My guess is that the connections in the 3 outlet Koppla is similar but with the connections being at the end of the strips. Probably also connected with crimps. The outlets that you either just poke the wires into or use the screw terminals are still available in the US. It does appear that a number of others now use a design where you can poke a wire into a slot but then tighten down the screw on it rather than just poking it into a hole that has some way of grabbing it internally. I haven't been to a hardware to see which is most prevalent but you can find both types online.

My Revelation is what I would call star connected with a separate wire going to each duplex outlet from the IEC for each connection (hot, neutral and ground). The connection between the two outlets of a duplex receptacle are through the metal of the receptacle so I suppose you might call it a parallel-serial connection.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by tokenbrit »

markiteight wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02 Just to clarify, the Revelation doesn't use a star live and neutral arrangement. It's more like a combination of series and parallel, with the duplex pairs wired in parallel, and the individual sockets within each duplex connected in series.
ThomasOK wrote: My Revelation is what I would call star connected with a separate wire going to each duplex outlet from the IEC for each connection (hot, neutral and ground). The connection between the two outlets of a duplex receptacle are through the metal of the receptacle so I suppose you might call it a parallel-serial connection.
Seems like different wiring arrangements in yours & Tom's Revelation, by the language here... If I read Thomas' post correctly, his Revelation is wired like your Integrity pic, markiteight (I need to rewatch The Big Lebowski now, to tie this thread together)

markiteight wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-22 04:54 US wiring tends to be daisy-chain, rather than star, doesn't it? If mixing wiring topologies (NANA) is worse, is a daisy chain topology within a distribution block inherently better musically, somehow, than star wiring? (assuming a decent (enough) connection) Are there any all daisy-chain CablePros?
When you refer to "US wiring" are you taking about how the mains wiring is configured in the home, or how the "average" power strip is wired?
I was referring to domestic US wiring, not power strips - either this, or this depending on the electrician. Your Integrity & Tom's Revelation aren't wired like this; rather they're wired like individual spurs to each outlet-duplex, more like a hydra from the IEC. That's different to the Koppla as clarified by Tom, and evident in your 6-way Koppla pic, which (to me) is more of a busbar arrangement. (I've stayed away from series & parallel because I don't know how to apply then in a radial wiring arrangement)

Just for the record, none of my posts are intended to draw conclusions yet - that would be very undude, and I'm already not-dude enough. I'm open-eared to the end to find a winner between your clips - it's just to understand the construction of what we're listening to. Thanks again for doing these comparisons.
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by tpetsch »

"X" musically flows better.

For testing purposes are the plugs arraigned in the outlets the same -as best you can- from one strip to the other? ...Because this makes a difference too, I know in my system my Hi-cap transformer -for instance- will humm louder depending on where the plug is plugged into a strip. When ever I add or change a piece of gear there is usually always a plug rearrangement that follows. Sometimes even a cheater is used and on more rare occasions the cheater is flipped.

Are you following rule #4 here for instance on all tests?

https://www.lejonklou.com/wp-content/up ... cords1.pdf
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by markiteight »

Another unexpected outcome, but I concur with everyones assessments.

X: Koppla 6 outlet extender
Y: Koppla 3 socket power strip, daisy chained

After seeing everyones responses to this latest round it occurred to me that I missed a golden opportunity to slip a Lebowski reference into the clip designations. I thoroughly apologize for my oversight and I promise I will do better next time.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-23 17:19 The photo of the inside of the 6 outlet Ikea unit is exactly the type of thing I was talking about. My guess is that the connections in the 3 outlet Koppla is similar but with the connections being at the end of the strips. Probably also connected with crimps.
And you would be correct:
Image

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-23 17:19 My Revelation is what I would call star connected with a separate wire going to each duplex outlet from the IEC for each connection (hot, neutral and ground). The connection between the two outlets of a duplex receptacle are through the metal of the receptacle so I suppose you might call it a parallel-serial connection.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-23 18:42
markiteight wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02 Just to clarify, the Revelation doesn't use a star live and neutral arrangement. It's more like a combination of series and parallel, with the duplex pairs wired in parallel, and the individual sockets within each duplex connected in series.
ThomasOK wrote: My Revelation is what I would call star connected with a separate wire going to each duplex outlet from the IEC for each connection (hot, neutral and ground). The connection between the two outlets of a duplex receptacle are through the metal of the receptacle so I suppose you might call it a parallel-serial connection.
Seems like different wiring arrangements in yours & Tom's Revelation, by the language here... If I read Thomas' post correctly, his Revelation is wired like your Integrity pic, markiteight (I need to rewatch The Big Lebowski now, to tie this thread together)
I think there's still some confusion on my part as to what constitutes star wiring. I'm under the impression that each component being powered (in this case each socket) needs to be wired directly to a common point in order to satisfy the definition of "star". Perhaps that's not strictly the case?
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02 I was referring to domestic US wiring, not power strips - either this, or this depending on the electrician. Your Integrity & Tom's Revelation aren't wired like this; rather they're wired like individual spurs to each outlet-duplex, more like a hydra from the IEC. That's different to the Koppla as clarified by Tom, and evident in your 6-way Koppla pic, which (to me) is more of a busbar arrangement. (I've stayed away from series & parallel because I don't know how to apply then in a radial wiring arrangement)
"This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what have-yous." Look closely at the ground wiring in the Revelation (top).
Image

There's a single short wire tying the first duplex ground screw to the IEC center pin.
Image

Every other duplex is grounded via its chassis connecting to the chassis of the duplex before it (and to the housing). Correct me if I'm wrong (I say that a lot, don't I?) but that does not a star grounding scheme make.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02 Just for the record, none of my posts are intended to draw conclusions yet - that would be very undude, and I'm already not-dude enough. I'm open-eared to the end to find a winner between your clips - it's just to understand the construction of what we're listening to. Thanks again for doing these comparisons.
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-23 20:49 "X" musically flows better.

For testing purposes are the plugs arraigned in the outlets the same -as best you can- from one strip to the other? ...Because this makes a difference too, I know in my system my Hi-cap transformer -for instance- will humm louder depending on where the plug is plugged into a strip. When ever I add or change a piece of gear there is usually always a plug rearrangement that follows. Sometimes even a cheater is used and on more rare occasions the cheater is flipped.

Are you following rule #4 here for instance on all tests?

https://www.lejonklou.com/wp-content/up ... cords1.pdf
I mentioned this in an earlier post but you bring up a very good point so I'll touch on it again. No, I haven't been follwing rule #4. The Revelation was connected preamp first but I found source first better on the daisy chained Kopplas (they had mere minutes of play time when I made this comparison so it might be worth re-examining). With the 6 socket extender it's impossible to follow rule #4 so I got as close as I can. Preamp is plugged into the top center socket with Lingo and Linto on either side and Klout drawing from bottom center (and thus from a different socket than the 3 top components).
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by Lego »

markiteight wrote: 2021-01-24 02:14 Another unexpected outcome, but I concur with everyones assessments.

X: Koppla 6 outlet extender
Y: Koppla 3 socket power strip, daisy chained

After seeing everyones responses to this latest round it occurred to me that I missed a golden opportunity to slip a Lebowski reference into the clip designations. I thoroughly apologize for my oversight and I promise I will do better next time.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-23 17:19 The photo of the inside of the 6 outlet Ikea unit is exactly the type of thing I was talking about. My guess is that the connections in the 3 outlet Koppla is similar but with the connections being at the end of the strips. Probably also connected with crimps.
And you would be correct:
Image

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-01-23 17:19 My Revelation is what I would call star connected with a separate wire going to each duplex outlet from the IEC for each connection (hot, neutral and ground). The connection between the two outlets of a duplex receptacle are through the metal of the receptacle so I suppose you might call it a parallel-serial connection.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-23 18:42
markiteight wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02 Just to clarify, the Revelation doesn't use a star live and neutral arrangement. It's more like a combination of series and parallel, with the duplex pairs wired in parallel, and the individual sockets within each duplex connected in series.
ThomasOK wrote: My Revelation is what I would call star connected with a separate wire going to each duplex outlet from the IEC for each connection (hot, neutral and ground). The connection between the two outlets of a duplex receptacle are through the metal of the receptacle so I suppose you might call it a parallel-serial connection.
Seems like different wiring arrangements in yours & Tom's Revelation, by the language here... If I read Thomas' post correctly, his Revelation is wired like your Integrity pic, markiteight (I need to rewatch The Big Lebowski now, to tie this thread together)
I think there's still some confusion on my part as to what constitutes star wiring. I'm under the impression that each component being powered (in this case each socket) needs to be wired directly to a common point in order to satisfy the definition of "star". Perhaps that's not strictly the case?
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02 I was referring to domestic US wiring, not power strips - either this, or this depending on the electrician. Your Integrity & Tom's Revelation aren't wired like this; rather they're wired like individual spurs to each outlet-duplex, more like a hydra from the IEC. That's different to the Koppla as clarified by Tom, and evident in your 6-way Koppla pic, which (to me) is more of a busbar arrangement. (I've stayed away from series & parallel because I don't know how to apply then in a radial wiring arrangement)
"This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what have-yous." Look closely at the ground wiring in the Revelation (top).
Image

There's a single short wire tying the first duplex ground screw to the IEC center pin.
Image

Every other duplex is grounded via its chassis connecting to the chassis of the duplex before it (and to the housing). Correct me if I'm wrong (I say that a lot, don't I?) but that does not a star grounding scheme make.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-23 06:02 Just for the record, none of my posts are intended to draw conclusions yet - that would be very undude, and I'm already not-dude enough. I'm open-eared to the end to find a winner between your clips - it's just to understand the construction of what we're listening to. Thanks again for doing these comparisons.
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
tpetsch wrote: 2021-01-23 20:49 "X" musically flows better.

For testing purposes are the plugs arraigned in the outlets the same -as best you can- from one strip to the other? ...Because this makes a difference too, I know in my system my Hi-cap transformer -for instance- will humm louder depending on where the plug is plugged into a strip. When ever I add or change a piece of gear there is usually always a plug rearrangement that follows. Sometimes even a cheater is used and on more rare occasions the cheater is flipped.

Are you following rule #4 here for instance on all tests?

https://www.lejonklou.com/wp-content/up ... cords1.pdf
I mentioned this in an earlier post but you bring up a very good point so I'll touch on it again. No, I haven't been follwing rule #4. The Revelation was connected preamp first but I found source first better on the daisy chained Kopplas (they had mere minutes of play time when I made this comparison so it might be worth re-examining). With the 6 socket extender it's impossible to follow rule #4 so I got as close as I can. Preamp is plugged into the top center socket with Lingo and Linto on either side and Klout drawing from bottom center (and thus from a different socket than the 3 top components).
Seems like we're also comparing different iterations.I preferred x as y seemed to stumble when the singing started .That could be because daisy chaining with Y ,have I got that right ?Now I know why I instinctively liked your sound Markit8
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by Defender »

X for me too
there seem to be a pattern again with y I seem to hear more details but musicality is compromised
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Re: Cheap power strips for best sound.

Post by V.A.MKD »

Little bit late on the party, but ...

X for me.

More musical, more foot taping, more PRaT ...
Music First ...
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