New LP12 upgrades

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-02-27 02:00

This might already be old news for some of you, but it was just mentioned on the Swedish Linn forum that Linn are planning to release a new motor controller and a new MC preamplifier for the LP12 in just a few months time.

Both are said to be internal, but I wonder if they might require an external power supply. Housed in a Klimax case? If so, that will make the upgrades very expensive.

It's always a thrill to see the LP12 being upgraded. Internal solutions will however complicate comparisons. The shop will need several LP12's equipped with MC to demonstrate against Linto and Lingo.

Limiting the possibility to compare might also be intentional by Linn, as it protects the LP12 from potential competing upgrades. Once you've installed that motor controller and internal MC stage, you can't easily exchange them for something else.

Comments anyone?

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2009-02-27 09:59

Great news! :D

Lets just hope that theese upgades are reasonably priced and not Keel-style. The fact that there are no external Klimax-boxes might be a good sign in that direction? Does anybody know anything more? Will the same motor and top plate still be used?

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2009-02-27 12:09

There are a lot of informations at the Linn Forum:

1.) New LP12-motor: There are rumours that it is a (brushless) DC-Motor....

2.) New MC-Preamp: The Preamp w/o PS sits inside the LP12 and is fixed to the Trampolin2

3.) New PS for the motor and the new PS for the MC-Preamp are sitting both together in one Klimax-style-box............

Fredrik, IMHO its time to design your own motor-control-PS for the new motor in a Kikkin-Box................?

matthias

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-02-27 12:26

Azazello wrote:The fact that there are no external Klimax-boxes...

What gave you that impression? I suspect there is.

Will the same motor and top plate still be used?

Top plate is said to be the same.

matthias wrote:Fredrik, IMHO its time to design your own motor-control-PS for the new motor...

The question is whether Linn will sell the motor separately. I think not, they will try to protect their product from competition. When I made a plug-in phono card (Hudik) for the original Exotik, they killed their product and released New Exotik - much more expensive but with all the plug-in upgrades already fitted, whether you wanted them or not.

I suspect that when you buy the new (expensive) Klimax box, you get the (inexpensive) motor kit with it.

In any case, it will be really interesting to hear it.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-02-27 17:35

I have been watching these rumors on the Linn forum and there is seeming to be more consistency to them. The general tone seems to indicate a new DC motor, an internal phono stage (some say attached to the Trampolin2, others say attached to the Keel), and a new power supply in a Klimax box that powers both devices. One of the Linn dealers in the UK has stated that Linn have 3 upgrades coming out in 2009 and some of the speculation is that an updated Akiva is the third one (Akiva SE, Klimax Akiva?).

My rep has told me that a "Klimax Lingo" and "Klimax Linto" are coming but has given no more details (and if he had I wouldn't be able to tell you anyway :) ). Since Linn is calling all their top line products "Klimax" I don't think that indicates two Klimax style boxes - the internal phono stage driven from the same case as the motor controller would still fit that description.

Whatever does come out, if it involves a Klimax case it will certainly be expensive. The least expensive device in a Klimax case is the Artikulat Klimax Tunebox which sells for $7700US so it is pretty safe to say it will cost more than that. I can only hope that the DC motor and the phono board are relatively inexpensive so that the whole kit doesn't end up in the outrageous price range. (I'm sure many will feel that it looks to already be there if it is in that $8000+ range, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. :? )

There is the possibility that Linn could come out with a lower price motor controller/power supply using the same technology in a Majik/Akurate or Sneaky DS style case. This would be similar to the way the Klimax DS spawned the three less expensive DS products. But I would only think they would likely make one lower priced variant - not several as in the DS units. Don't know if this will happen but one can only hope.

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2009-03-01 22:24

ThomasOK wrote: There is the possibility that Linn could come out with a lower price motor controller/power supply using the same technology in a Majik/Akurate or Sneaky DS style case. This would be similar to the way the Klimax DS spawned the three less expensive DS products. But I would only think they would likely make one lower priced variant - not several as in the DS units. Don't know if this will happen but one can only hope.

Sorry Thomas but the thought of a half baked lp12 does not appeal; its all or nothing if I cant afford it I save up and buy it when I can, but still enjoy what I have.If Linn go down that route then I think they are at it big time.I would much rather not buy something I wanted but could not afford than buy something I dont want but can afford.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-03-01 23:05

Lego wrote:I would much rather not buy something I wanted but could not afford than buy something I dont want but can afford.

Food for thought Leo. Personally, If I thought it would take a very long time to save up for the new LP12 mods and they produced a much cheaper version that offered good value for money then I'd probably buy it instead.

Leo wrote:I cant afford it I save up and buy it when I can, but still enjoy what I have.

You make a lot of sense. Not sure I'm always successful at it though.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2009-03-02 12:30

What about 2 offerings?
Majik; DC motor with control unit in an AV box (a good bit better than Lingo at same price)
Klimax; same DC motor with control unit in an Alu box (must be a LOT better, twice the Majik cost)

Then MANY MANY LP12 owners going to upgrade to Majik = nice revenue increase.
Many of them later going to upgrade to Klimax. More so than without Majik as a half the cost is already invested...

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-12 18:25

It looks like some of you will be getting your wishes. From several new postings on the Linn forum I've been able to piece together some interesting information on the new upgrades. There will be two motor control units which will also be able to supply power to the new phono board. They will be called:

Klimax Radikal
Akurate Radikal
Eureka (phono board)

I don't have pricing info on all of them but it sounds like the Akurate Radikal will run £2500.

Apparently they will be introduced in the beginning of April.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2009-03-12 18:38

Great to hear that Linn is back on track with the product names again :D Don't know if I'll be willin' to pay that amount for the second best tough. Fredrik, it's time for Udevalla!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-12 19:41

Great names! :D

Twice the current price of Lingo for the cheapest option?

It's funny how these days the new and better Linn product always costs a lot more than its predecessor. In the early days, they used to release something much better than their old product - to a similar or even lower price.

In any case I'm looking forward to hearing this! As for Uddevalla - hmm...

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-03-12 20:06

I'm pleased Linn have split the product in two and also offered the Akurate version - and from the beginning, not 6 months down the line. You can now join the DC motor club for significanty less than the cost of the Klimax version and new phono boards together which would have been the only option otherwise.

Although I do take Leo's earlier point that perhaps it's better to just wait until you can afford the Klimax version, especially as they are not priced too far apart. Depends though - if it takes a year to save up for the Akurate and two for the klimax, you may as well enjoy your music more in between whilst saving up for the better model, though of course it will take you longer overall to reach that goal.

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2009-03-12 21:46

Where's it say that a new motor (DC or otherwise) is part of the upgrade?

'troll

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-12 22:42

lejonklou wrote:Great names! :D

Twice the current price of Lingo for the cheapest option?

It's funny how these days the new and better Linn product always costs a lot more than its predecessor. In the early days, they used to release something much better than their old product - to a similar or even lower price.

In any case I'm looking forward to hearing this! As for Uddevalla - hmm...

I agree with all of this. It is nice to see some good new K names koming out of Linn - I was beginning to tire of Klimax, Akurate, Majik everything.

It does seem that the new stuff, at least at the top of the line, is making major jumps up in price. On the other hand there is little question that the Majik CD outperforms its more expensive predecessor the Ikemi which outperforms the more expensive Karik III. Likewise with the Majik Kontrol vs. the Kairn or the Chakra/Akurate 4200 vs. the Klout. It is just that these product are no longer the top models as their predecessors used to be (excepting the Ikemi). And the price jump to the top is a big one.

I think some of it is just that they are pushing the boundaries of what can be done further than ever before - and that is what keeps me positive about Linn despite the total lack of support in the US. But I'm also sure some of it is just that Linn now realize that people will pay that much for it. After all if there are people out there spending $100,000 or $150,000US on a turntable, what is wrong with a superior LP12 for $20,000?

It does seem that those lovely solid aluminum casings eat up a chunk of the increased cost. I wonder if Linn will actually let us hear how much difference the Klimax cases really make by putting the same exact power supplies and circuit boards in both the Klimax and Akurate versions. Or will the actual electronics inside be somewhat different as in the DS products and the various preamps.

This is my biggest question in regards to the value vs. performance equation of the top-line Linn products. When Linn makes a less expensive product like the Akurate DS or the Majik Kontrol that is based on a higher performing design (Klimax DS and Akurate Kontrol, respectively) are the circuit changes involved really a substantial cost saving measure so as to meet a lower price point or are they purposely reducing the performance to make sure the more expensive product sounds substantially better? To put it another way, does the Akurate DS have a different analog output stage to make it less expensive? Or does it need to sound enough worse than the Klimax DS to convince people to buy the more expensive unit? How much more would it cost to make the Akurate DS with the same exact circuitry as the Klimax DS and allow the customer to decide if the additional performance and more beautiful appearance of the Klimax case is worth the difference?

My feeling is that if it would increase the retail of the Akurate DS from $6850US to say $12,000US to use the exact same circuitry as the Klimax DS then Linn is making an intelligent decision in terms of necessary compromise to meet a substantially lower price point that many will find more accessible. On the other hand, if it would run more like $7500US to have the same exact circuitry as the Klimax DS, as opposed to $6850US, and the performance would be substantially better, then Linn are playing us.

Do the Klimax cases really make that much difference? As it currently stands we really have no way of knowing. I hope these new LP12 upgrades give us the opportunity to find out.

If not...bring on the Uddevalla! (Maybe bring it on anyway. :) )

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-03-12 23:22

Uddevalla comes up as a bridge in Sweden when I Google it :? I don't get it

Interesting points Thomas, especially about the question of whether their products are the best they can be at a given price or whether the price comes first and they are engineered to offer a certain level of sound quality.

I also wonder about how Linn must have changed as a company over the years. When you see what Fredrik has achieved and then I read posts about how Linn used to bring out products better than anyone else and at half the price, I figure Linn has evolved a lot over the years. Perhaps their overheads are much greater and they simply can't create the cost effective products they used to. Maybe the market place isn't what it was either - i.e. with China etc, but then Lejonklou manage to offer amazing value for money.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2009-03-12 23:31

Maybee you should search the forum instead ;)

This is not it -> http://www.uddevalla.se/

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-03-13 00:22

Interesting.

Fredrik - you've not got much on at the moment have you?

Maybe time to dust off the old files

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-13 23:48

No Charlie, nothing going on here.

Just enjoying some music.

It seems the pricing in Sweden will be around 60 000 SEK for the Klimax Radikal, a bit more than 30 000 SEK for the Akurate Radikal and around 30 000 SEK for the Eureka MC stage.

We'll probably know the costs more exactly in a week or two.

teatime · Post by **teatime** » 2009-03-14 14:15

Ouch!

Well, I don't see the second hand prices on Lingo or Linto going down anytime soon..

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2009-03-14 19:44

Charlie1 wrote:Uddevalla comes up as a bridge in Sweden when I Google it :? I don't get it

Interesting points Thomas, especially about the question of whether their products are the best they can be at a given price or whether the price comes first and they are engineered to offer a certain level of sound quality.

I also wonder about how Linn must have changed as a company over the years. When you see what Fredrik has achieved and then I read posts about how Linn used to bring out products better than anyone else and at half the price, I figure Linn has evolved a lot over the years. Perhaps their overheads are much greater and they simply can't create the cost effective products they used to. Maybe the market place isn't what it was either - i.e. with China etc, but then Lejonklou manage to offer amazing value for money.

Although, as noted, I have voiced my concerns about some of Linn's product positioning decisions, I don't feel that the basic philosophy of Linn has changed that much over the years - at least in most areas. If you really take a look at the current market you will find that Linn still " bring out products better than anyone else and at half the price". It is just that the prices of Linn and their competitors have gone up substantially, as have many other products. How about some examples:

I can tell you from my own experience that the $2000 Linto outperforms the $4000 Aesthetix Rhea. It is also notable that the Linto is in class A of Stereophile's ratings along with any number of $4000 to $9000 units (not that I'd put much weight in Stereophile ratings). And is there anyone here who does not believe that the new, approximately $4000 Eureka will not outperform the $33,500 Boulder 2008? Or let's talk about Burmester. We just picked up Burmester and I do find it to be a musical line of equipment. With the right cabling in the right configuration the $22,000 Burmester CD player is a little bit better than the $7500 Akurate CD player. Although with different wiring the Linn sounds a touch better. Likewise the $23,000 Burmester Preamp sounds quite good in a Burmester system but in my system the original $12,500 Klimax Kontrol outperforms it. And these comparisons are to products that are actually quite good overall. I have had systems traded in here with $16,000 preamps that were handily beaten by a $3100 Majik Kontrol, $20,000 mono-block power amps that couldn't compete with a $4430 Akurate 2200, an $18,000 SACD/CD player that a $3500 Majik CD would put to shame and $22,400 speakers that couldn't hold a candle to $995 Katans! So here you have a $60,000+ system (once you figure in cables, etc.) that sounds so bad none of us wanted to be in the room with it. I'd take a Classik K and Katans any day over it. And these were all "Class A" rated components.

The problem is that almost all of the higher end equipment is getting much more expensive. Take Burmester for example: the units I mentioned above are in the upper-MIDDLE of their line. Their top CD player is $70,000, best preamp $55,000, top power amp $70,000 (they recommend two) and top speaker is $90,000! Of course you'll want one of their $8000 power conditioners and $5000 racks to go with it. And they aren't even the most expensive pieces out there. It wasn't long after the glowing reviews of the over $100,000 Caliburn turntable before there were at least 3 or 4 over $100,000 turntables on the market. Not to be outdone in charging ridiculous sums for products, Goldmund is making a turntable/arm for $300,000. As if that wasn't crazy enough it converts the musical signal to digital in the tonearm before feeding it to a special phono stage that converts it back to analog! Does this seem like a really stupid idea to anyone besides me?! Does anyone here really believe that any of these outrageously expensive turntables are really better at reproducing music than an LP12SE much less one with a Klimax Radikal and Eureka?

Even if you take the more moderate prices Linn products still are at the top in terms of performance for the money. Another simple example: while I like Rega products and their CD players and integrated amps are quite good, still the CD player in the $2500 Classik Music 2008 easily outperforms the $2400 Saturn and the Classik includes a good tuner and a quite nice integrated amp in the box!

I do agree it is a shame that the entry point into Linn equipment is so much higher than it was a few years ago but I see that happening with other companies as well. Both Arcam and Rega have had to raise the price of their entry level products over the last few years. No more $700 CD players for Arcam or Rega - they now start at $1000 as does the entry Arcam integrated. The latest Rega speakers have also gone up about 20% in the US compared to their predecessors despite the more favorable (for us) exchange rate. I think a lot of this has to do with the increased costs for meeting ever tougher environmental and safety regulations. In the EU all electronics products have to meet RoHS standards which means the removal of all lead based solder. This in itself was mainly responsible for the death of the Kolektor, Genki, Pekin, LK85 and 140, etc. On top of that is the regulation requiring all consumer electronics to be recycled by the company that manufactures it. The costs of handling these requirements have to be figured into the cost of each item as the manufacturer has to pay for them sooner or later.

And then there is just the plain inflation to consider too. While everyone is used to the prices of DVD players, computers and TVs dropping dramatically over time this is because they are commodity items that are mass manufactured with mass manufactured parts. The pricing patterns that work for that part of the market do not carry over to precision engineered and manufactured goods like quality hi-fi. If you look at other items of similar nature you see that Linn pricing is in line. Lets take another example of a product that has been on the market as long: I bought my first Honda Accord the year it came out in 1976 for $4445. I bought my newest Honda Accord last August for $28,650 or 6.5 times as much money (actually I got a deal but that was the normal selling price). I bought my first LP12 in 1978 when it sold for about $950 including a Grace 707 arm and cartridge (I don't quite remember which). A new Majik LP12 with a 6.5 times multiplier would run $6175 but it actually only sells for $4040 with the optional dust cover. While it is true that the 2008 Accord is considerably better equipped and more advanced than the 1976 was, it is also true that the 2008 Majik LP12 is also considerably better equipped (the Majik power supply, Majik tonearm and Adikt certainly are much more better than their earlier counterparts) and more advanced (Cirkus upgrades, updated plinth and top plate, upgraded motor, better hardware) than the 1978 LP12.

So I believe that Linn still offers top performance for half the price of other companies. And I still have yet to hear anything outperform the top Linn components no matter how expensive the competitors were. I just wonder if Linn couldn't push the performance just a bit more on the entry and mid level separates without substantial additional cost. But even if they don't or can't it is true that products like the Majik and Akurate series sources and electronics outperform the top of the line products of the early 1990s. As much as I'd like Linn to be perfect and might tend to complain when they are not, I am still grateful that they are as good as they are. After all, if they weren't around what would I buy to listen to music on?

Moomintroll · Post by **Moomintroll** » 2009-03-14 21:15

Some very good points there, Tom.

'troll

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2009-03-15 00:16

It must be Linn's fault that we have come to expect near perfect performance at a given price. Now that I can finally afford what was the best of the best, the bar has been raised. How dare they!! :roll:

To add salt to the wound just when my ADS can give my LP12 a run for it's money, Linn comes out with all this stuff to improve analog by leaps and bounds. Then there's the artists that keep putting out more music - my collection will never get finished!!

When I bought my LP12 in 1980 in another part of the country, the dealer would come by to help with a problem, at his convenience, as part of the deal.

Is the service that used to come with the price of Linn still included?
Is it usually charged for separately? How much service is to be expected?
Is this set by Linn? (Any Linn dealers please)

I too started with LP12 with Grace 707. Stanton cartridge (or that what was on the Technics it replaced) IIRC. In terms of times/value that LP12 setup was about one fourth of my system at the time.

StellanH · Post by **StellanH** » 2009-03-15 14:15

I do agree it is a shame that the entry point into Linn equipment is so much higher than it was a few years ago but I see that happening with other companies as well.

Apart from the possible reasons Thomas OK mention, I think also the Hi-Fi business is becoming more marginilized (even more) by the mp3 and download disease spreading over the world.

Many young people are not even considering buying hi-fi components when they get access to "music" via different download options on the web.

So to compensate for the fewer hifi-units sold, the prices have to be increased. I expect this to continue.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-15 23:36

Well written and some interesting observations there, Thomas.

Specifically, I like the comparisons with mid-level HiFi brands, as the high end market has always been completely crazy in my humble opinion.

Linn used to be priced like mid-level HiFi while performance was world class. With the CD12 they moved into the high end segment and decided to stay there. Then later gradually let go of the entry level products - with the exception of Classik. I have never liked this development, as I and almost everyone I know got into Linn through the entry level products.

That HiFi is becoming marginalized is true. Smaller scale production is more expensive, yes. But you must also remember that electronic components are of higher quality and less expensive than ever before. The price of electronics have fallen every year for decades, I just read an article that suggested the current recession will probably result in prices staying fixed for a while.

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2009-03-16 11:33

As a customer I can get excited by a product if it performs really well especially if it costs less than than one expects.When it's a 'spare no expense this is the best we can do'. I don't find it very exciting..only when I can afford it does it become exciting :)
But when it gets to the point when you're asking yourself shall I buy this piece of hifi kit or start a small business and employ a couple of young kids you know you're heading towards mega consumerism...there are needs and there are wants ..