Alternative top plate for LP 12

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Diogenes
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Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by Diogenes »

Are any forum members using third party top plates on their Sondeks?

A Google search came up with several sources of aftermarket top plates. One that caught my attention is the Serene composite plate made of two sheets of metal held together with damping adhesive. I’d certainly expect it to be more rigid and ring less than a stock top plate.

So, if anyone has used a non-factory top plate on their Sondek, Serene or otherwise, would they please post their experiences?

TIA.
matthias
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by matthias »

Diogenes wrote: 2019-04-21 23:26 One that caught my attention is the Serene composite plate made of two sheets of metal held together with damping adhesive. I’d certainly expect it to be more rigid and ring less than a stock top plate.
The LP12 top plate is designed like an inversed flat spring. Most third party top plate designers do not understand this design principle and are coming up with a "more rigid" and "ring less" solution which fails musically. I do not think that there is a better design than the original Linn stainless steel top plate.

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Diogenes
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by Diogenes »

matthias wrote: 2019-04-22 14:43 The LP12 top plate is designed like an inversed flat spring.
Where is this stated? In any case, I very much doubt this. Multiple springs in series can lead to chaotic motion which is the last thing one needs in a suspension designed to isolate a sub-chassis from external vibrations.
matthias wrote: 2019-04-22 14:43 Most third party top plate designers do not understand this design principle and are coming up with a "more rigid" and "ring less" solution which fails musically. I do not think that there is a better design than the original Linn stainless steel top plate.

Matt
This is a personal subjective opinion. One man's "fails musically" is another man's "neutral sound".
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lejonklou
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by lejonklou »

Diogenes wrote: 2019-04-22 18:43 This is a personal subjective opinion. One man's "fails musically" is another man's "neutral sound".
Not on this forum.

Here one member's "That's really tuneful" is another member's "Wow you're right, that really is tuneful".

Then we discuss which one is more tuneful than the other. :)
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ThomasOK
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by ThomasOK »

While I have not had direct experience with the Serene top plate I have heard the Khan and Karmen aluminum top plates and some carbon fiber ones. I found they all robbed the LP12 of much of its inherent musicality. I have also restored LP12s where damping has been added to the top plate (and also to subchassis, platters, etc.) and the improvement when these were removed was substantial and appreciated by those customers who had grown tired of their modified LP12s and requested them be returned to stock. There is no end to third party "upgrades" to the LP12 but, other than the Woodsong plinths by Chris Harban, I have not heard any I have liked - and I have heard many.

The top plate does not act as a spring in the suspension. I don't think matthias description let you know what he meant. The Stainless Steel top plate from Linn has the description "BENT & FINISHED TOP PLATE WITH STUD". The top plate is bent with a gentle curve from one side to the other so that when the top plate bolts are properly torqued the top plate flattens against the three wood strips creating a stressed interface of the two. This stressed interface is missing from most if not all alternative top plates leading them to often use six fixing points, rather than the three Linn currently use, to thy to avoid rattles at the interface, which definitely should be avoided. Technicians who have worked on Linn turntables for some time have learned to change the bend on some top plates to eliminate rattles where the fit isn't perfect.
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Diogenes
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by Diogenes »

Thanks for the reply ThomasOK.

Interesting to note that an article on the Khan appeared in the November 2011 issue of Hi Fi World. The author liked the Khan so much that he kept it.
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by Øyvind I »

Hi, I bought a Khan top plate based on that review. Must have been around 2012/13. It was about the same time as I moved house got a different listening room and started to get back into spending on Hi-Fi again.
It was the start of a long and expensive upgrade path as the music didn't quite appear to be involving. Added Keel, Radika, Ekos 2, the Urika, changed the amps and speaker. Still not foot tapping pleasure. Very tight and tidy but not tuneful.
Then I bought a 2nd hand deck from -84 in addition which was kept original but upgraded with new Majik subchassis snd cirkus. What a chock. Significantly more engaging than the top deck - without having fat bloomy or colored "sound".

Swapped back to original top plate on my main deck and what a pleasure. 4-years waste with the Khan. 2 mates of mine who had done the same mistake also converted back to original.
There is probably a reason for the plate being like it is.

Øyvind I
Charlie1
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by Charlie1 »

Øyvind I wrote: 2019-04-26 11:34 Added Keel, Radika, Ekos 2, the Urika, changed the amps and speaker. Still not foot tapping pleasure. Very tight and tidy but not tuneful.
Have you checked for the Radikal motor issue Øyvind? There might be even more fun to be had from your main deck. It seems subtle at first cos it doesn't impact the sound balance very much, but it has quite a nasty impact on the music. There is a separate thread on it if you want to discuss further.
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by u252agz »

Øyvind I wrote: 2019-04-26 11:34 Hi, I bought a Khan top plate based on that review.

It was the start of a long and expensive upgrade path as the music didn't quite appear to be involving.

There is probably a reason for the plate being like it is.

Øyvind I
Expensive and valuable lesson in why one should not ‘believe ‘ everything one reads- especially if the goal is musicality.

At least you have a top spec LP12 , without third party mods now - so it has not been an entirely futile journey
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
Øyvind I
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Re: Alternative top plate for LP 12

Post by Øyvind I »

u252agz wrote: 2019-04-26 19:01
Øyvind I wrote: 2019-04-26 11:34 Hi, I bought a Khan top plate based on that review.

It was the start of a long and expensive upgrade path as the music didn't quite appear to be involving.

There is probably a reason for the plate being like it is.

Øyvind I
Expensive and valuable lesson in why one should not ‘believe ‘ everything one reads- especially if the goal is musicality.

At least you have a top spec LP12 , without third party mods now - so it has not been an entirely futile journey
True. All good now.
I'm aware of the Radikal issue. Have upgraded to Urika 2 recently as well.
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