Discussion about tune and more continued.....

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-11 20:39

To make room for more away from the “playground”:

Spannko wrote:

“It’s just occurred to me that my ramblings might look like a regurgitation of the marketing material fed to us over the last 40 years or so. However, whilst I’ve been using Tune Dem since the 80’s, I’ve also been of the opinion that it was a very clever idea, dreamt up by a HiFi company, which just happened to work. It’s only very recently I’ve discovered that it’s a true scientific phenomena and therefore much more than just a marketing ploy. The fact that it’s taken even a “believer” 30 years to fully understand its value indicates just what a marketing failure it’s been! It’s not a belief, it’s not even open to debate. It’s a scientific fact! Just google inharmonicity, pitch, timbre, harmonic dissonance, spaciality, research. There are more research papers than one can shake ones proverbial stick at!”


I do think that marketing talked Ivor out of explaining what was going on. It was too complicated to explain and they had to sell the stuff he made.
So maybe a failure but a deliberate failure!

When an industry grows big it has a life of it’s own. Like a baby it has to be fed to survive. The first thing to die is truth (like in war).
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-03-11 22:53

That's very profound beck.

The only thought I have is that since Ivor handed over the reigns and became Chairman, it appears to me he has devoted a lot of his Linn-time to visiting dealers around the world and talking about tune dem (including earth worms as I recall) and running tune dem comparisons. I can only conclude its a topic he's passionate about sharing with customers. Maybe you're right and he feels he can finally put more focus back onto tunedem.

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-12 14:34

Interesting points, chaps.

On the one hand we have Ivor as passionate as ever, getting out there and singing from the rooftops, and on the other we have the marketing dept doing their best to keep everything dumbed down!

I bet it was the marketing dept who decided that it would be a good idea to use other manufacturers speakers to demonstrate their new range, too. Whoever thought to themselves “I know. I’ve had a great idea! Let’s dem our new range of gear, that the guys have spent ages tweaking to perfection, on a really shite pair of speakers”! And, even worse, wtf agreed to it? When you’re demming hifi you ALWAYS make sure that what the customer hears is bang on and blows their fekin socks off! Customers are often very polite so they usually won’t tell you that what they’re hearing isn’t very good - you just won’t see them again. Fekin amateurs! Fekin rant over! Feckety feck. Feck!
Last edited by Spannko on 2019-03-15 02:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-03-12 15:37

I did wonder if anyone is listening to Ivor in-house. Maybe tunedem doesn't 'sell'; maybe they don't know how to market it; maybe they just don't give a feck about tunedem... Some of their marketing certainly seems feckless ;)

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Tendaberry » 2019-03-12 16:16

I was especially disappointed to hear a phrase like "measured distortion and noise are both lower than in existing Chakra implementations" in a video comparing the Selekt DSM against the Naim Unity Nova. I bet that came from Marketing as well...

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by cortina » 2019-03-12 17:07

Not to mention Space Optimisation, practical position, bass shelves etc etc. While they may still use tunedem to some extent, it is for sure not their top priority any longer. That Linn is gone. I cannot believe that ”Old Linn” would ever have launched at least the first versions of digital volume controls, space Optimization etc.

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-12 21:11

As a company you want the buyers of your products to always have something more to aspire to buy. You want your buyers to think that they are missing out on something.

What Ivor was/is offering us is knowledge that can ultimately make us independent of this feeling. That is not good news for the companies that want to make a profit.

The core of the matter is that a really tuneful system will offer a fulfilling experience to the listener not leaving any doubt that music with all it’s ability to hit us emotionally is being played in our room. When this happens you will as a listener simply surrender to the overwhelming experience no matter what the “sound” is like.

A fulfilled listener is much less inclined to be searching for ”better” more expensive equipment.
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-13 00:49

beck wrote:
2019-03-12 21:11
As a company you want the buyers of your products to always have something more to aspire to buy. You want your buyers to think that they are missing out on something.
You don’t work in marketing, do you beck? ;-)

I was just about to agree that satisfied customers are bad for business. But, are audiophiles ever truly satisfied? HiFi systems still only reproduce a fraction of the real thing, and I very much doubt that I’ll live to see the day when advances stop being made. HiFi companies don’t need to “market” to me, I’m like a lamb to the slaughter!

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-13 07:29

I think that is where we differ Spannko. I do not consider myself being an audiophile. I would be perfectly happy sitting next to Brian Wilson and George Martin at the end of the video below :-).

https://youtu.be/CnVyCuc9_P8
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-13 10:47

Great vid, beck!

PS. Sorry for dropping the “A” bomb!

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-03-13 11:06

I think non-audiophiles are just as suspectable to the HiFi adiction, chasing that buzz you get when all your music is made more captivating and enjoyable, until it fades and becomes the new 'norm'. Obviously, I do not suffer this afflication but I sympathise with those that do ;)

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-13 12:14

I just love Brian Wilsons reaction at the end of the video when he hears how George Martin balance the tracks creating even better music than Brian did making the original master! :-)

To Charlie1: We can all get caught by the “upgrade” mode but I think it often is because of a fundamental imbalance in the “music” our system produce.
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-03-13 12:32

I agree that what likely motivates many people to upgrade is an imbalance, but I reckon the 'buzz' of an upgrade can happen to anyone, whether their system is already well balanced or not. I suppose an upgrade can throw the balance off too though, whilst still being more tuneful and musically enjoyable.

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-13 12:45

I’m going to get some t-shirts made with “I’m an Audiophile” printed on the front, and “Loud & Proud” on the back. Then I’ll get a marketing firm to come up with a plan to “Free the Audiophile” from their anachoic closets and charge them £50 for the privilege of being able to walk down the street with their head held high!

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-13 12:51

Spannko wrote: I’m going to get some t-shirts made with “I’m an Audiophile” printed on the front, and “Loud & Proud” on the back. Then I’ll get a marketing firm to come up with a plan to “Free the Audiophile” from their anachoic closets and charge them £50 for the privilege of being able to walk down the street with their head held high!
Can I be part of your marketing team? :-)

First slogan: “Upgrade bug is cUming: start hUmming!”
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-13 15:27

ha ha, I see what you did there!

Kerching!

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Defender » 2019-03-14 19:28

I believe that most of the people try to get an easy answer to a complex problem. If you have to educate someone and change the beliefs its gone be a hard sell.

Problem of room acustics: solved with space optimization;) complex problem easily solved
Noise in the replay of music, cant be good so complex problem reduced to an easy answer with DVC

I am sure there are more customers who believe that than question it. Linn is no longer about the truth its about to sell more. It started with space optimization, followed by promoting DVC, closing the forum (make detractors quiet) and stopping the production of DS in favour for DSM.

Thats the path but I am happy some are aware and a company is more Linn now than Linn is now.

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by anachronid » 2019-03-14 19:31

As long as we're all happy.

'If it sounds better, it is better...'
Linn Klimax LP12 (Urika II), Linn KEDSM, Exakt Akubariks

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-15 01:39

When an industry grows big it has a life of it’s own. Like a baby it has to be fed to survive. The first thing to die is truth (like in war).
Sad, but true, beck.

I’ve often wondered if Linns history could be described as pre-Waterfoot and post Waterfoot. When Linn moved they suddenly found themselves having to cover the cost of their new building and infrastructure. As if that wasn’t bad enough, we then had the economic slowdown of the late 80’s which compounded the problem. To service their debts, Linn had to change tack slightly, by introducing new products we probably wouldn’t have seen if Linn had stayed in Castlemilk, with the old factory’s lower overheads. However, that was over 30 years ago and I wouldn’t be surprised if the new factory’s now paid for, giving Linn more financial freedom to get back to their roots. The fact that they can afford to spend millions of pounds a year on R&D supports the idea that their financial pressures are not what they were during the “dark days”.
Last edited by Spannko on 2019-03-15 09:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-15 01:57

Defender wrote:
2019-03-14 19:28
I believe that most of the people try to get an easy answer to a complex problem. If you have to educate someone and change the beliefs its gone be a hard sell.

Problem of room acustics: solved with space optimization;) complex problem easily solved
Noise in the replay of music, cant be good so complex problem reduced to an easy answer with DVC

I am sure there are more customers who believe that than question it. Linn is no longer about the truth its about to sell more. It started with space optimization, followed by promoting DVC, closing the forum (make detractors quiet) and stopping the production of DS in favour for DSM.

Thats the path but I am happy some are aware and a company is more Linn now than Linn is now.
From my point of view, I wouldn’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water, as it were!

Personally, I think that Linn still make some excellent HiFi. I use it, and I’m absolutely delighted with what I’ve got. My rant was aimed at the way Linn “market” their HiFi, and not the products themselves. Watching what’s practically an institution fall below the standards of the past can be quite frustrating!

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-16 09:50

Found this:

Conclusions
.............................

Audio consumers need to be self-aware and self-empowered. Don't just buy into some pre-existing (ie, mainstream) audio aesthetic or belief system. Your ears, heart, and mind are far more sensitive and sophisticated measuring tools than any 'scope, calibrated mike, or analyzer—trust them.................


Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/zu- ... xgQS1oh.99

.....while digging deaper into Zu Audio speakers. What I really believe to be important when finding and buying a hifi system that you can enjoy has been highlighted above.

That and getting the setup at home done properly.


So, Spannko you are on the right track being true to yourself! :-)
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Lego » 2019-03-21 15:27

Same restaurant, different Chefs
I know that tune

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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-22 10:48

Found this video. It is a reminder that there are different ways to enjoy this hobby (start at 20 min.) and this is one of the reasons why opinions differ so much in the hifi community.

https://youtu.be/klR5nwNNJgE

The Klipsch speakers would be interesting to hear live:

https://youtu.be/A58xkcxNW5c
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by Tendaberry » 2019-03-22 12:40

I don't know if this is too off topic, but I hope not. Yesterday evening I attended the opening of a new hifi store (Auditorium) here in Hamburg. It was advertised as an event to hear the B & W Nautilus speakers (the original ones @ € 65.000,- a pair).
It turned out that they were driven by a Devialet streamer + 4 Devialet stereo power amps actively. They also had a Clearaudio "oil rig" turntable (€ 64.950,-) connected, but didn't use it.
Anyway, after the first tune I already felt like leaving, as the sound emanating from the speakers was truly awful: sluggish, uninspired, no emotion or tune, bloated bass. It got a little better, after the amps warmed up a bit. But even favourites like Diana Krall's A Case Of You sounded so uninspired, I found my mind wondering about what to eat this weekend.
Sure, the room wasn't perfect (very big with large windows on one side), but any mid-range Linn rig from the 90's would have been way better. Fredrik's demo with a Majik LP12/Slipsik 7/Sagatun/Tundra/Graham a few months back would have absolutely killed it in comparison.

beck
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Re: Discussion about tune and more continued.....

Post by beck » 2019-03-22 12:48

But could you hear some exiting sounds that you would like to hear again? :-)

It just goes to show that regardless of price we have to choose carefully and be ready to use time on setup if we want to listen to music.
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