Using Torque Screwdriver on LP12

[Charlie1]

Finally purchased a 2nd hand Sturtevant Richmont CAL-36/4 Torque screwdriver as recommended by some members.

I started by using it on my Ninka's and that was fine, although I found it very difficult to notice any difference on the mid and bass. Optimising the tweeter has bought a small but noticable benefit though.

Before my main question, the screwdriver is quite stiff, especially at the higher torque settings. Is this normal? It's as if it needs oiling.

I want to use the screwdriver to optimise the LP12. I am not familiar with LP12 setup, but presumed it would be just a case of making some adjustments to fixings.

I began with the arm collar as its the only easily accessible fixing. I loosened this off and the whole arm dropped - not sure what I was really expecting to happen, but anyway. I tried using the Tune Method to set the hight but would be grateful for a few pointers.
1.) When an LP is being played - should the arm be level or at a slight downward angle. This must depend on the thickness of LP I suppose. Also, how important is this setting?
2.) How crucial is it that the arm be in parallel with the sides of the table when in the resting position. i.e. I'm just using my eye to get it looking straight when on the arm rest.
3.) a rough idea as to the torque setting for the arm collar fixing.

Many Thanks,

[ThomasOK]

Finally purchased a 2nd hand Sturtevant Richmont 4-36 Torque screwdriver as recommended by some members.

I began with the arm collar as its the only easily accessible fixing. I loosened this off and the whole arm dropped - not sure what I was really expecting to happen, but anyway. I tried using the Tune Method to set the hight but would be grateful for a few pointers.
1.) When an LP is being played - should the arm be level or at a slight downward angle. This must depend on the thickness of LP I suppose. Also, how important is this setting?
2.) How crucial is it that the arm be in parallel with the sides of the table when in the resting position. i.e. I'm just using my eye to get it looking straight when on the arm rest.
3.) a rough idea as to the torque setting for the arm collar fixing.

Many Thanks,

Glad to hear you found the torque driver. To answer your question about the driver it is normal for the Sturtevant Richmont to be stiff in the upper torque levels. I would not recommend lubricating it as that could easily effect the accuracy of the torque settings. On your other questions:

1) With Linn arms and cartridges I set the arm to be parallel to the record. This varies slightly with record thickness so I generally use a middling thickness. It does make a sonic difference so it is worth getting correct.
2) Not critical at all. As long as it is reasonably close, and most likely even if it isn't, it should work fine.
3) That depends on the arm. For arms with a locating slot on the pillar (Ittok, early Ekos, Basik) around 2.6Nm, for the Ekos SE and Ekos without slot about 1.6Nm, for the Akito II about 1.3Nm (probably same for Akito 1 but I haven't set one of those yet).

In my experience, the fasteners for which torque settings make a musical difference on the LP12 are as follows:

Arm collar to armboard, Arm height, subchassis to armboard, motor mounts, motor stud, cartridge to headshell, bearing housing to subchassis, motor wires to Lingo board, Keel ground screw and top plate to plinth bolts. Also the headshell screw on the Basik LV-X tonearm.

I find no sonic improvement from different torque settings on any of the screws that go into wood except the ones into the armboard. This include those holding on the Trampolin or standard base, the top plate locating screws and the screws that locate the wiring strap that holds the Lingo board or Valhalla.

Good luck.

[Charlie1]

Many thanks for your post Thomas - very much appreciated.

Before your post, I'd been taking a look at the Ittok and LP12 setup manuals I found online and they say that the arm height fixing needs to be very tight. This is how it was previously set as it took quite some force to undo. I realise from what you've said that the Ekos SE requires less torque, but I'd guess mine had considerable more - certainly more than the 2.6 you mentioned for the Ittok. I'd guess something like 4Nm easily. Maybe dealers want them tight so that the arm doesn't turn if the arm is pulled out of the rest, which takes some force on the SE (I never do this myself as it seems to put a lot of pressure on the arm)

However, I'm quite pleased about the suggested torque setting you've given for the arm collar as I was preferring the 1.5 to 2Nm area (I only went up as far as 2.5Nm), but have struggled getting my ear in more than that. I realise that the screwdrivers vary a bit too, so it's just a good starting point.

Thanks again.

PS I noticed in the manuals that they recommend removing the arm to fix the cartridge tightly. Is this really necessary? I don't want to risk any damage to the arm. They might be very tight at the moment, like the arm collar - I haven't checked yet. If they are not too tight then I suppose its OK.

[lejonklou]

Great to have you on board the torque screwdriver movement, Charlie. :D

You have to realise that in the past, Linn recommended most fasteners to be tightened very hard. Especially metal to metal fasteners. There was talk about Tight - Super Tight - Linn Tight, and the arm height screw you mention was one of those screws that I was taught to tighten almost as hard as I could.

Today we know that this makes no sense - it just makes the sound worse. It has nothing to do with how tight the arm sits in the rest - you don't have to tighten it hard at all to resist that force. By the way, you can easily adjust the tightness of your plastic arm rest by gently bending it more open a few times.

I find it quite important how tight the cartridge is mounted in the arm's headshell. But please note that you can not remove your arm without opening the LP12 from below, by removing the Trampolin. This is because the arm cable has a DIN plug that fits into the arm from below, and that plug is fastened with a tiny screw in the arm pillar.

If you intend to continue exploring the setup of LP12's, you should get a Linn jig.

[Charlie1]

Great to have you on board the torque screwdriver movement, Charlie.

:) Thanks Fredrik - it took me about 9 months, but got my backside into gear eventually.

If anyone else is thinking about getting one, I bought the following from a US construction company and they have more for sale:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sturtevant-Richmo ... .m63.l1177

I made an offer of $50 which was accepted. Delivery to the UK was $19, so the total was about £52. Their communication wasn't great, but delivery was quite quick. Note that the various bits are not included - its just the screwdriver and case.

I've only done the speakers and arm collar so far, but it did seem more musical today, but maybe that was just my mood or lunchtime wine - probably a bit of both helping :D

I find it quite important how tight the cartridge is mounted in the arm's headshell. But please note that you can not remove your arm without opening the LP12 from below, by removing the Trampolin. This is because the arm cable has a DIN plug that fits into the arm from below, and that plug is fastened with a tiny screw in the arm pillar.

So would you ALWAYS remove the arm to unscrew the cartridge? Maybe I'll just apply a small amount of pressure and see if they come loose. But if they are fixed down like the arm collar was then I think it best to wait until ready to take the LP12 apart.

[lejonklou]

Yes, always remove the arm to tighten or unscrew the cartridge. This is in order not to damage the arm bearings.

Some plastic body cartridges have an optimal torque low enough to safely mount them without removing the arm - at least on some arms. Metal cartridges should be tightened much more and can't be safely mounted or removed.

To be on the safe side, it's a good rule to always remove the arm.

[Mikeg]

"In my experience, the fasteners for which torque settings make a musical difference on the LP12 are as follows:

Arm collar to armboard, Arm height, subchassis to armboard, motor mounts, motor stud, cartridge to headshell, bearing housing to subchassis, motor wires to Lingo board, Keel ground screw and top plate to plinth bolts. Also the headshell screw on the Basik LV-X tonearm. "

Are you saying there are specific torque rates for each of the above or is it more trial and error? I am particularly interested in:

Arm collar to armboard
subchassis to armboard
motor wires to Lingo board

Mike

[lejonklou]

Hi Mike!

Yes, there are specific torque ranges for these screws, and they are quite different. I would suggest you try around 0.6 Nm for the arm collar bolts, 0.4 Nm for the armboard screws and 0.2 Nm for the Lingo motor wires.

As even small changes are clearly audible, it's best if you can rig the LP12 so that you can listen and then vary these values up and down a bit. I usually start low and work my way up until it gets worse. Then I back down and finally find the optimal value (for my tool).

You can also solder the motor wires and the Lingo cable directly to the small circuit board inside the LP12, they don't really need to be removable in my opinion. Whether that becomes an improvement, however, depends on how good the soldered joints become. A screwed connection is better than a bad soldered joint, but worse than a good soldered joint.

[ThomasOK]

Fredrik's answer is quite correct. There are different proper torque settings for each fastener. I do recommend a bit of care with the armboard screws as over-tightening them will strip the holes in the armboard. This is even more likely with the older style armboards. With a new style laminated armboard I find that a bit under .4 Nm works best so I would try going up from about .3 Nm. I would also recommend trying below .2 Nm on the Lingo wires as well as a bit above to find the best setting.

[Mikeg]

My torque driver starts at .5Nm. Ok for for most things but the armboard at .3-.4Nm is a bit too low for it. I was thinking of using the .5Nm setting and then easing back a touch (1/16 of a turn?).

Obviously the 'Linn Tight' formula is now a thing of the past. I had presummed that it still applied to some fixings such as the bearing to subchassis bolts and the top plate spring hanging bolts, now I am not so sure!

Mike

[Moomintroll]

My torque driver starts at .5Nm. Ok for for most things but the armboard at .3-.4Nm is a bit too low for it. I was thinking of using the .5Nm setting and then easing back a touch (1/16 of a turn?).

Mike

Mike,

I wouldn't. There is always some small amount of variation in the accuracy of torque drivers, especially at such a low setting and your 0.5Nm setting could even be slightly high. I think you'd risk stripping the holes out, at which point the torque setting becomes somewhat irrelevant. I'd stick with using a normal screwdriver and "feel".

'troll

[Mikeg]

I'd stick with using a normal screwdriver and "feel".

Would this be to the point that the screw just makes contact or contact plus a nip?

Mike

[lejonklou]

Hm... difficult to describe in words, isn't it? Maybe a bit more than a nip. Two nips, my right hand says.

Maybe you should get one of those torque screwdrivers that Thomas recommends? He got me into it, and now I use it for just about everything.

It just takes a couple of fasteners on the LP12 to feel that it's well worth the asking price.

[Charlie1]

Haven't had time to adjust any more torque settings on the LP12 and it will probably be a few weeks before I get around to it. Just to say that having only done the Ninka drive units and arm height, I've been enjoying a noticably more musical system this week. It wasn't immediately obvious but the more listening I've done each day, the more I realise everything is more tuneful and musical. Looking forward to getting my hands dirty and getting into the LP12!

[Mikeg]

Where can I get hold of a torque driver that covers the lower range of torque discussed here, at a reasonable cost?

Mike

[Charlie1]

This is who I got mine from - they are a US construction company I think:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sturtevant-Richmo ... .m63.l1177

It's the same as Fredrik's and Thomas'

[JW]

This is who I got mine from

Me too :)

Had a quick play with it on the 3K array of the Akurates with good results. I'll have to spend some more time on it and do it properly soon, but tune has improved noticably already. Before I do I'd like to check to calibration though.

Most screws on the array were tightened to about .8Nm or 1Nm, quite a bit lower than the recommendation IIRC.

JW

[Lego]

I dont know anything about torque or anything but I remember when I used to tighten the bolts on the feet(spikes) of my Kan stands as tight as possible ie by standing on the spanner!! the sound was so unbearable :so bright and brittle thAT I wasnt hanging around to see if it tune demed any better so loosened them and got a better sound.
Why is this, is it similar to tuning an instrument?

[Charlie1]

I remember when I used to tighten the bolts on the feet(spikes) of my Kan stands as tight as possible ie by standing on the spanner!!

Beyond 'Linn Tight' is 'Leo Tight'!

Glad you don't service my LP12

[lejonklou]

...as tight as possible ie by standing on the spanner!!

I've done this too. I even got some extra long keys to be able to properly overtighten the main bearing screws of the LP12. :oops:

My only excuse is that I was taught by the professionals to do this, but for some reason it took many years before I started carefully checking the results. And later Thomas appeared and suggested a torque wrench - something I had contemplated, but didn't know what model to get.

I also admit that getting a torque wrench felt like going to extremes. Surely a a good "feel" for how to tighten various fasteners should be enough, no? Once I had done my very first screw with the torque wrench - the height locking screw on my Ekos tonearm - I could hear this was not extreme, it made perfect sense.

Why is this, is it similar to tuning an instrument?

At least the results seem to resemble that. When overtightening fasteners, you get an out-of-tune sound. If they're too loose, the sound gets sloppy. It seems to be a matter of getting all the resonances balanced.

[Music Lover]

seems to be a matter of getting all the resonances balanced.

Yes and due to my experiments over the years - same goes for room treatment. Normal furnitures will do perfectly. Not to much nor to little..

[Mikeg]

"I even got some extra long keys to be able to properly overtighten the main bearing screws of the LP12"

I had thought that this was one of the few areas where 'Linn tight" still held true. How tight should they be?

Mike

[lejonklou]

Hi Mike!

The main bearing screws should be tight, but not too tight. Easy to hear the difference!

I'd say 3 Nm is a good starting point. You can try a little more than that, but if you go as far as 4 Nm it will sound stiff and out of tune. It's not difficult to adjust this value by ear, but it takes a bit of time in between each change, as you need to remove outer platter, belt and inner platter to get access to the screws.

[Charlie1]

you need to remove outer platter, belt and inner platter to get access to the screws.

I did this last night to take a peek. I can see the three screws, but can't quite access enough of them to make an adjustment - the hole in the top plate is slightly too small.

What about the other screws on the top - are any of those worth adjusting?

1.) There are a pair by the motor (that stand proud and not flush with the plate). Perhaps these are what are referred to as the 'motor stud fixings' or are they inside the deck?

2.) Three that correspond to the suspension I would guess.

3.) Finally, there is a large and small fixing close together, both at the top and bottom.

[Mikeg]

I did this last night to take a peek. I can see the three screws, but can't quite access enough of them to make an adjustment - the hole in the top plate is slightly too small.

What about the other screws on the top - are any of those worth adjusting?

1.) There are a pair by the motor (that stand proud and not flush with the plate). Perhaps these are what are referred to as the 'motor stud fixings' or are they inside the deck?

2.) Three that correspond to the suspension I would guess.

3.) Finally, there is a large and small fixing close together, both at the top and bottom.

It sounds as if you are not sure about the setup of the LP12. Can I suggest before you start changing things that you at least get hold of full setup manual (easily downloaded). This will at least tell you what all the fixings are and give you a good starting point before attempting to tweak.

Mike