When is an LP12 not an LP12?

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anachronid
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When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by anachronid »

Or to put it another way, what makes an LP12 an LP12? What accounts for its distinctive sound?

If the LP12 is more musical and plays tunes ‘better’ than some other turntables, why is this?

Is the 'essence' of the LP12 the three-point spring suspension? Or this combined with the (slightly bent) stainless steel top plate? How fundamental is the wooden plinth?

Is a deck with machined aluminium top plate/plinth still an LP12?
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by beck »

To me personally this is not a useful question. You should ask yourself what kind of Sondek you find a fulfilling experience for you to listen to.
The Sondek has changed focus along the way and I have my own favorite.

The question should be: “When is an LP12 not your kind of LP12”?

All this is just my opinion.
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by ThomasOK »

In some ways this is like asking what makes a Ferrari a Ferrari? Is it the engine, the transmission, the styling, the suspension, the sound, etc.

The answer in both cases is that it is the totality on the unit. However, since the LP12 is a somewhat open device the question has been asked (most often on a now defunct forum) of when does an LP12 become no longer an LP12. That answer, like many, can depend on your point of view. In my personal experience almost all third party "upgrades" for the LP12 have made it less tuneful (less musical) rather than better. These include machined aluminum and carbon fiber top plates, bamboo plinths, various subchassis of machined aluminum, aluminum/mdf sandwiches, acrylic, etc.; acrylic armboards; magnetic bearing suspension systems; mats too numerous to bother listing; and various others. It also applies to misguided attempts to damp the top plate, plinth, platters, armboard, tonearms, etc. Indeed a number of the Woodsong Audio plinths and the Rubikon subchassis (no longer made and outperformed by the newer Linn Kore) are the only third party turntable items that I have found worthwhile. This excludes arms and cartridges, where there is more scope for non-Linn products to perform well, although I still prefer and use Linn components here on my own LP12s.

To give some attempt to answer the question I would say that the bearing/inner platter assembly is the very core of the LP12 and it radiates out from there. The motor/power supply is the next most crucial component followed closely by the subchassis/suspension, both of which are available currently in three different versions from Linn and there were others in the past. Obviously all of these are LP12s, but as beck has indicated, they are all different LP12s. In my experience, as you move up in Linn's LP12 turntable, arm and cartridge upgrades things do get more musical. But there are some who prefer the Krystal to the Kandid due to its a bit more euphonic nature (and it is a very fine cartridge for the money). And there will always be a few who prefer an early, pre-Cirkus LP12. But the exquisitely designed and machined bearing assembly/platters; the relatively lightweight but rigid spring suspended subchassis; the low vibration, accurate motor/drive systems with precision belt drive; and the tensioned steel top plate/solid wood plinth all are a part of the musicality of the LP12. Having done a number of tests of plinth woods I can tell you that they do have an effect on the musicality, as does the top plate.

One thing I have noticed is that I have not found any of the high-mass turntables to be very musical. The most musical current turntables tend to be medium to lighter weight like the Regas and the LP12. This has also been true of some of the older turntables like the AR XA and XB, some of the Empires, and the Heybrook TT2, all of which were belt drive turntables with aluminum subchassis suspended by three springs and two piece aluminum platters on a quality bearing assembly. They can all be made to sound pretty musical with proper attention to setup.
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by Øyvind I »

As far as I have seen, LP12 is marked and developed as a product from Linn Products. Either as Linn Sondek LP12 or only Linn LP12 and covers the turntable, usually including power supply. Arm and cartridge being separate.
Hence, if a different top plate, bearing, PSU etc is used, it's not a LP12 - but a "modified LP12" or just something different. In any respect I've still to hear a modified LP12 to better a original deck as the latter is a "sum of parts applied"
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by anachronid »

Very interesting as always Thomas.

Following home demonstration (my 'LP12' built into a Tiger Paw Stratos) it didn't take long for me to decide to keep the machined aluminium plinth/top plate. To my ears, the Stratos facilitates increased detail, tunefulness, and musicality.
ThomasOK wrote: 2019-02-22 19:16
... I would say that the bearing/inner platter assembly is the very core of the LP12 and it radiates out from there. The motor/power supply is the next most crucial component followed closely by the subchassis/suspension, both of which are available currently in three different versions from Linn and there were others in the past. Obviously all of these are LP12s, but as beck has indicated, they are all different LP12s. In my experience, as you move up in Linn's LP12 turntable, arm and cartridge upgrades things do get more musical.
It's a different LP12 - but still an LP12 on your definition above, and more importantly in the sense that it preserves the musical quality that distinguishes vinyl from even the very best high-res streamed content. IMO this upgrade follows in the tradition of Linn upgrades that quite simply enable more musical information to be dug out of those grooves.

But this is just my view based on a rather unscientific comparison. I'm sure others will reach different conclusions. It's worth a try though!

IMG_9743 (1).jpg
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by anachronid »

Øyvind I wrote: 2019-02-22 23:14 As far as I have seen, LP12 is marked and developed as a product from Linn Products. Either as Linn Sondek LP12 or only Linn LP12 and covers the turntable, usually including power supply. Arm and cartridge being separate.
Hence, if a different top plate, bearing, PSU etc is used, it's not a LP12 - but a "modified LP12" or just something different. In any respect I've still to hear a modified LP12 to better a original deck as the latter is a "sum of parts applied"
You may well be right in thinking that the 'official' Linn LP12 is better than an LP12 with third-party modifications. But the top-of-the-range Klimax LP12 (2019) is very different from the 'original' version, which has of course been heavily modified by Linn themselves.

So there is no good reason to believe that the basic design is not capable in principle of further improvement, whether by Linn or a third-party with the resources and determination :)
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by beck »

The Sondek comes in an infinite number of variations. It has all to do with how you react when listening to your Sondek and system. That is what matters. Nothing else. If the music it produces makes your heart sing then you have found YOUR Sondek and what a joy that is!
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by Charlie1 »

I've not heard one but the Stratos certainly looks great anachronid. Very smart with just the arm and platter in silver.
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by tokenbrit »

I'd be interested to hear your LP12, anachronid. Would you be willing to post some clips so that we can get an inkling of how it sounds?
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by ThomasOK »

I have not heard the Stratos, nor its competitor the Stiletto. I have evaluated the Khan and Karmen top plates from the same companies and did not like either, but those are aluminum top plates that mate to a wood plinth, not a complete aluminum top plate/plinth combination. So you are talking about a whole different thing which certainly may work. Just something I as yet have no experience of. But I'd certainly have to say it is still an LP12. And since you enjoy it, that's what counts.
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by anachronid »

tokenbrit wrote: 2019-02-23 17:24 I'd be interested to hear your LP12, anachronid. Would you be willing to post some clips so that we can get an inkling of how it sounds?
Hi tokenbrit

I confess to being mystified by the technique of using clips recorded on iPhones etc to evaluate musicality, though I've read up on other threads (e.g. on the TP Tranquility) where this has been discussed.

Quite apart from the question whether such clips capture the the differences between what is recorded (let's assume they do for the moment), in this instance there would be no 'B' with which to compare 'A', which I thought was the essence of Tune method. (Some might not think my fully-Exakt LP12 with Urika II capable of being musical, regardless of the plinth!).

I've commented in another thread on the methodological difficulties of evaluating 'alternative plinths and top-plates'. The 'comparison' in my case was between the Stratos'd LP12 which I had on home dem, and my memory of the sound of my original LP12 with wooden plinth - hardly a satisfactory A/B test.
https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4447

But I'm happy to give it a go, with some guidance on how to make the clips, if you think it would be useful :)
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by tokenbrit »

Hi anachronid,
Apologies for the intrusion. There just seemed to be quite the interest in your plinth, myself included, and I just thought a clip might be appreciated by a few members... I realise it would be an A without a B, and that clips are more useful for comparison. I wasn't asking for purpose of assessment; I was really just curious as to the sound with the stratos plinth and your exakt system.

Much like markiteight's earlier clip of his system, I think it's possible to get an idea of a system's personality & musicality from a clip in isolation, and I think (certainly hope) that this forum is considerate of each other's system choices, whether that be passive or active; analogue or digital/exakt. I must admit, though, that your comment about perception (preconceptions?) of a fully-exakt LP12 and musicality did cross my mind as that's 'exaktly' what piqued my interest...

There have been times when it might've felt that the topic question could be more broadly stated, on this site, at least, as to when is Linn no longer Linn, such is the divergence of approaches, but this forum is encouraged and sometimes moderated to be open minded; essentially to (just) listen, which is what I was hoping to do :)

All that said, I would quite understand if you felt that a clip wouldn't serve any purpose - maybe it'd be more appropriate if/when you make any changes, as part of an A/B, rather than just to satisfy [my/any] curiosity ;)

Either way I don't have experience of making and posting clips to help with a how to. Sorry.
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by anachronid »

ThomasOK wrote: 2019-02-23 19:06 I have not heard the Stratos, nor its competitor the Stiletto. I have evaluated the Khan and Karmen top plates from the same companies and did not like either, but those are aluminum top plates that mate to a wood plinth, not a complete aluminum top plate/plinth combination. So you are talking about a whole different thing which certainly may work. Just something I as yet have no experience of. But I'd certainly have to say it is still an LP12. And since you enjoy it, that's what counts.
Compared to my previous wooden plinth with Khan top-plate, I would describe the Stratos as more authoritative and detailed, but also somehow more effortless and natural (and yes, to my ears the music is also more tuneful and enjoyable).

It's not difficult to see why in theory the machined aluminium plinth/top-plate shouldn't do a better job than just the machined top-plate in preventing unwanted movements/vibrations, and thereby enabling more music to be excavated from the grooves.

But I've not noticed any difference in character between the two decks. So it may be that if you didn't like the Khan, you won't like the Stratos.
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2019-02-22 17:56 To me personally this is not a useful question. You should ask yourself what kind of Sondek you find a fulfilling experience for you to listen to.
The Sondek has changed focus along the way and I have my own favorite.

The question should be: “When is an LP12 not your kind of LP12”?

All this is just my opinion.
You beat me to it, beck!

“When is an LP12 not an LP12” is quite an interesting question. However, before we can answer, we firstly have to ask the question “What is an LP12?”, and this is a bit more of a challenge. Only then, when we’ve agreed upon what an LP12 is, can we move on to the relatively easier question of “When is an LP12 not an LP12?”.

For me, 1990 (‘ish) was the year the music died, so the decision is easy.

<1990 = LP12
>1990 = NOT LP12 (ie LP12 “in name only”)
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Re: When is an LP12 not an LP12?

Post by Spannko »

This was posted on the wam and I thought that it was quite relevant to our discussion. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/MO0r930Sn_8
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