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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-27 17:11
by John
Yes, that’s an Exposure 15. Had that setup running from 1992 to 2008. Now using the same amp with Tannoy DMT 15’s. The Quads are in storage.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-27 17:45
by John
Here’s a more recent pic.

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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-29 19:37
by ThomasOK
Defender wrote: 2019-01-27 09:30 I find dipoles fascinating and might end up one time with a dipole.

Not sure which Quads you have but some people are also experimenting with the angle of the Quads (not toe in) but I am sure you know.
I think we all hope you manage to get the best out of them because we all had a lot of benefits from your extensive testing of various things.
This is really a great forum with great and helpfull people and fruitfull discussions.
I have what are often referred to as the Quad ESL57s. The true original name is actually just the Quad Electrostatic Loudspeaker or ESL for short. But when the ESL 63s came out (confusingly in 1982, named the 63 because that is when Peter Walker came up with the idea) the ESL started being called the ESL57 to differentiate it (it was introduced to the market in 1957). I prefer the original name but there are so many Quad ESLs it does cause some confusion. The original ESL is the only one without a model number and the only one not based on the delay-line fed "point-source" design of the 63 (which I don't particularly care for).

I will indeed be experimenting with the rake angle of the Quads as I tune the setup.

I find it interesting that John has gone from Quad ESLs to a 15" two way with horn loaded tweeter and dual ports when I am going in the opposite direction, admittedly with a different speaker.

Here is a stock photo and an early piece of literature:

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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-30 21:34
by Defender
I have now two positions which seem good but deep inside me I have a feeling both are traps

Position 1
37,5 cm from the back wall
1,499 Meter speaker distance
no toe in

Position 2
39,8 cm from the back wall
1,499 Meter speaker distance
no toe in

both sound good
Position 1
music flows very nice, tunefull, transparent but also boomy bass, very dynamic, sounds good at low volumes

Position 2
music flows nice, bass more controlled, more on the thin side, good at high volumes



tested positions between the two but none of them are as good as one of the two
I have a feeling the system can do more even though what both positions deliver sounds really good.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-31 11:09
by Tendaberry
Don't you have any other tune-demmers in your neighborhood, that could help out?

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-31 11:44
by Defender
Hi Tendaberry,

I am living in a Linn/Tune Dem "diaspora".
Actually you are the closest I know of and you are always welcome to visit me (I am still 400km away in Thuringia).

I might ask for a tune dem demo at a Linn dealer in Erlangen to be sure what I do is consistant with tune dem.
Actually Position 2 seems to be the one to fine tune.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-31 15:12
by beck
Defender wrote: 2019-01-31 11:44 Hi Tendaberry,

I am living in a Linn/Tune Dem "diaspora".
Actually you are the closest I know of and you are always welcome to visit me (I am still 400km away in Thuringia).

I might ask for a tune dem demo at a Linn dealer in Erlangen to be sure what I do is consistant with tune dem.
Actually Position 2 seems to be the one to fine tune.
You have to learn to make clips. The respons time is very low compared to the other options....... :-)

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-31 15:22
by Defender
yes you are right
I am actually using the clips to learn and understand if I am coming to the same conclusions like you meaning I am on the right path.
For your last clip presented it was clip A out of the two ... but it seems you meanwhile added another clip.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2019-01-31 15:24
by beck
I am glad. This is what I have been hoping for all along that my clips could be useful to others. :-)

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-11 22:27
by Arjen
Dear Fredrik and other forum members,
Your guideline for placing speakers for a good, not ear offensive, but pleasant tune was really helpful to relief my problem after many upgrades and some tweaking (see my topic about limits of upgrading and tweaking). The one thing I had left behind (apart from some isolating speakercables and grounding devices) was the speaker position. Following usual audio shop rules I had placed them for long in a triangle with the listening position, about one meter from the back wall, toe-ed in. Before tweaking and upgrading the listening was okay, after upgrading and tweaking it turned into bad listening. Fredriks guidelines, adapted to my situation, delivered a great improvement. No more hurting ears, leaving earache behind. The speakers now are placed 32 cm off the back wall, 200 cm from each other and only very little toe-ed in. In between windowed doors, but curtains luckily behind for some damping. The music now is less hard, less noisy, detailed, integrated and with room filling depth. Music not out from speakers, but off the speakers, just filling the the room itself and beyond. Magic is back again.
So thank you Fredrik and forum.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-14 10:30
by Defender
Hi Arjen,
that sounds great - yes this forum here is for letting the supposed to be „right“ knowledge go.
Your distance from the wall is measured from the back of your loudspeakers? It sounds about right. The distance between the speakers seem to be too much. Usually it would be not much more than 1,60 most of the time less than that.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-14 13:00
by lejonklou
Arjen wrote: 2021-08-11 22:27 Dear Fredrik and other forum members,
Your guideline for placing speakers for a good, not ear offensive, but pleasant tune was really helpful to relief my problem after many upgrades and some tweaking (see my topic about limits of upgrading and tweaking). The one thing I had left behind (apart from some isolating speakercables and grounding devices) was the speaker position. Following usual audio shop rules I had placed them for long in a triangle with the listening position, about one meter from the back wall, toe-ed in. Before tweaking and upgrading the listening was okay, after upgrading and tweaking it turned into bad listening. Fredriks guidelines, adapted to my situation, delivered a great improvement. No more hurting ears, leaving earache behind. The speakers now are placed 32 cm off the back wall, 200 cm from each other and only very little toe-ed in. In between windowed doors, but curtains luckily behind for some damping. The music now is less hard, less noisy, detailed, integrated and with room filling depth. Music not out from speakers, but off the speakers, just filling the the room itself and beyond. Magic is back again.
So thank you Fredrik and forum.
Thanks for reporting, Arjen! Great to hear that you've succeeded in improving the position of the speakers.

Although 200 cm sounds like too large a distance for many dynamic speakers, it could be the result of your windowed doors. I've had speakers that were optimal at around 1.5 m apart when oriented against one wall (massive with no windows or doors) but closer to 2 m when positioned on each side of a usually open double door in the same room. Interestingly and to my surprise, the position around the doors sounded fantastic and it didn't matter much whether the doors were open or closed.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-14 15:02
by Arjen
Thanks for your reply Fredrik. Following your guideline made a huge difference In terms of ear relief. Have you ever had same experience as I had with hurting ears for whaterever reason (not as a result of loudness, but setup.
Interesting what you’re telling about once placing speakers against a windowdoored wall, that 200 cm worked out very welI, while you expected 150 cm as an optimum,
I just brought the distance between back to a 180 cm and that was no good, too harsh. So back to 190 cm seems to give a better result for now. Closing the curtains does a little and pretty damping, So that’s works out fine for night listening. My conclusion is that the first big tuning steps from your guideline work very well, the small tuning steps do need more exercising and patience too before getting the AHA.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-14 19:32
by V.A.MKD
Arjen wrote: 2021-08-14 15:02 Thanks for your reply Fredrik. Following your guideline made a huge difference In terms of ear relief. Have you ever had same experience as I had with hurting ears for whaterever reason (not as a result of loudness, but setup.
Interesting what you’re telling about once placing speakers against a windowdoored wall, that 200 cm worked out very welI, while you expected 150 cm as an optimum,
I just brought the distance between back to a 180 cm and that was no good, too harsh. So back to 190 cm seems to give a better result for now. Closing the curtains does a little and pretty damping, So that’s works out fine for night listening. My conclusion is that the first big tuning steps from your guideline work very well, the small tuning steps do need more exercising and patience too before getting the AHA.
Hi Arjen,
As a option, try distance 170, 160, 150 cm if the space allow ...
May be you will find there new "pick" in performance ...

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-14 22:52
by Arjen
Hi Vlado, I tried 160 with curtains closed. Sounds pleasant. Option for the night. During the day, curtains open and need for a view outside 175 is the most shortest I can do. Seems better than 180
/185. Fredriks 200 was nod bad either. As someone said (Thomas OK?), there are possibly more peaks to climb and more views to enjoy. Probably depending on ones interior.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 13:44
by Arjen
Is the shuffling and the re-shuffling of speakers also dependent on the music, cd quality and (vinyl)pressings you play on the set? Anyone any experiences with that?

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 15:13
by Defender
I dont think so - take care that you evaluate with the tune dem method.
But I think what you might hear (possible reason for your question) is a changing bass response which might give you a good feeling on tracks which need bass but that will be too much on other tracks.
The last mm will do a lot ... keep that in mind too.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 15:23
by Arjen
Thanks Def, The last mm’s are the hardest. You may be right that is is about bass. I experienced is with some jazz record. Now I try a little foam in my bassports. Maybe that is a listener little helper too.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 17:01
by lejonklou
Foam or socks in the ports of a well designed ported speaker never works, in my experience. It usually covers up a quantity problem (too much bass) at the expense of quality (tuneful bass).

It doesn't matter which music you use, the results should be the same. You might find it easier with some music and harder with others, but that may also change over time. So keep changing the music as soon as you start feeling "deaf" to a particular song.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 18:13
by Arjen
Why then foam or plugs sometimes come with speakers? Is it never ever useful then? It seems that you one day in the past have had your reason to experiment with that too, is that right Fredrik?

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 19:37
by Defender
I am sorry that my post was not clear enough - I didnt meant to make the impression you need to deal with the bass response from your loudspeakers.
What I was trying to say was that at some positions which give you too much bass response you might tend to like it with music which sounds a little bit low on bass - but that makes your bass overblown with other music.
So that might be the reason of your initial question - but it means as long as you have the feeling another position is better for a different kind of music that you didnt have the optimal position. The intention is to find the position which plays all different kinds of music in tune.

I once also started to play with the plugs which came with the loudspeakers and stopped it immediately as it made things worse ... so thank you Fredrik for confirming that.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 21:32
by Spannko
Defender wrote: 2021-08-16 19:37 I once also started to play with the plugs which came with the loudspeakers and stopped it immediately as it made things worse ... so thank you Fredrik for confirming that.
+1 Quite a bit worse, actually.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 22:01
by Arjen
I’d say you both right, sponge/foam seems to cover the music with dust. But then again, why comes it with some speakers, not only cheap ones.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 22:13
by lejonklou
Arjen wrote: 2021-08-16 18:13 Why then foam or plugs sometimes come with speakers? Is it never ever useful then? It seems that you one day in the past have had your reason to experiment with that too, is that right Fredrik?
It's not that common, is it? In the cases where they are supplied with the speakers, I suspect it's a cheap way for the manufacturer to let the customer reduce the amount of bass when they position them wrong (for instance one in each corner). Probably prevents some returns.

In any case, I can't recall a single time that I've found it beneficial to dampen the port with foam.

Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Posted: 2021-08-16 23:11
by Arjen
Well, foam taken away, sound cleared again. Bass tuning with Eric Dolphy ‘Bee Vamp’. Music for now at their kinda best, Bass focussed, 165 cm from each other, 39 cm from the rear wall, some 5 degree toe-ed in. Thanks for understanding and on-line guiding.