Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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matthias
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-08-16 17:01 Foam or socks in the ports of a well designed ported speaker never works, in my experience. It usually covers up a quantity problem (too much bass) at the expense of quality (tuneful bass).

It doesn't matter which music you use, the results should be the same. You might find it easier with some music and harder with others, but that may also change over time. So keep changing the music as soon as you start feeling "deaf" to a particular song.
Fredrik,
what did you do with the foam in the two ports right and left to the horn of the compression driver of the JBL3677?
Did you remove it?
Thanks

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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-08-16 23:20 Fredrik,
what did you do with the foam in the two ports right and left to the horn of the compression driver of the JBL3677?
Did you remove it?
Ah yes, that's a good question!

I think those thin foam pads that cover the inner end of each port (they're not inside the port) could actually be a block against the visible light that emits from the light bulb on the passive filter, which limits the level of the compression horn if you play loud enough. The speakers are made for cinema and intended to be used behind the screen, so if there's a really loud sound in the treble, you could potentially see a light flashing through the ports.

I never removed that foam pad. Was curious to hear them without, but I suspected they would fall into pieces if I ripped them off, making it impossible to put them back on.

Tried removing the light bulbs, though. Much worse! Tried replacing them with a good sounding resistor - worse again, no matter what value I used. Light bulbs definitely belong in the design!
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by V.A.MKD »

Arjen wrote: 2021-08-14 22:52 Hi Vlado, I tried 160 with curtains closed. Sounds pleasant. Option for the night. During the day, curtains open and need for a view outside 175 is the most shortest I can do. Seems better than 180
/185. Fredriks 200 was nod bad either. As someone said (Thomas OK?), there are possibly more peaks to climb and more views to enjoy. Probably depending on ones interior.
Super, you already pass thru smaller distance ...
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by V.A.MKD »

Arjen wrote: 2021-08-16 13:44 Is the shuffling and the re-shuffling of speakers also dependent on the music, cd quality and (vinyl)pressings you play on the set? Anyone any experiences with that?
With my small and short experience with this "Fredrik" and "Tune Method" source and music is not important.
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by V.A.MKD »

Spannko wrote: 2021-08-16 21:32
Defender wrote: 2021-08-16 19:37 I once also started to play with the plugs which came with the loudspeakers and stopped it immediately as it made things worse ... so thank you Fredrik for confirming that.
+1 Quite a bit worse, actually.
+1, I share the same opinion ...
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by Arjen »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2021-08-17 13:31
Arjen wrote: 2021-08-14 22:52 Hi Vlado, I tried 160 with curtains closed. Sounds pleasant. Option for the night. During the day, curtains open and need for a view outside 175 is the most shortest I can do. Seems better than 180
/185. Fredriks 200 was nod bad either. As someone said (Thomas OK?), there are possibly more peaks to climb and more views to enjoy. Probably depending on ones interior.
Super, you already pass thru smaller distance ...
Yes indeed, I realized 164 cm.
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by Arjen »

Using the Tune Dem is I think easier with the one record and more hard with the other. Easier to demonstrate with rather simple line up, say only e few instruments and voice.
Playing Idiot Prayer by Nick Cave (Voice over Piano) is proving the Tune Dem in placing the speakers very well. Now 170 apart and 36 cm from the rear wall, straight forward gives a too round voice and same piano sound. Just a few degrees, I’d say 5-10 degrees, both sides toe-ing in gives a more real, precise voice and more focused piano touch. More toeing in results in a too thin sound. That’s it for now
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by V.A.MKD »

Arjen wrote: 2021-08-23 23:56 Using the Tune Dem is I think easier with the one record and more hard with the other. Easier to demonstrate with rather simple line up, say only e few instruments and voice.
Playing Idiot Prayer by Nick Cave (Voice over Piano) is proving the Tune Dem in placing the speakers very well. Now 170 apart and 36 cm from the rear wall, straight forward gives a too round voice and same piano sound. Just a few degrees, I’d say 5-10 degrees, both sides toe-ing in gives a more real, precise voice and more focused piano touch. More toeing in results in a too thin sound. That’s it for now
Hi Arjen,
If I may suggest ...
Don't enter in to a trap of HiFi ... low, mid, high ... I enter in that film and make big mistake ...
Just follow the musicality ... tune ... melody ... what communicate better ...
I just wont to help in direction to avoid mistakes and get better musicality = more happiness and luck with your music ...
Music First ...
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by Arjen »

Never waste a good advice Vlado. The joy if listening should be in the music itself. Tune Dem should support that joy, not just the analytical lows, mids, highs and depth. I followed the hifi drift of upgrading and tweaking beyond the frontiers of joy too. I think as result of too much believing in the excessive reviews of devices and accessoires in magazines and on the internet. So thanks for warning against hifi traps. Luckily tuning by changing position of speakers to get the best out of the music can avoid those (commercial)traps.
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by BruceP »

I’d like to share an astonishing result I came to this evening thanks to tweaking the placement of my loudspeakers.

I had had a feeling my speakers were not completely “dialed in“ to the room although I have been getting decent enjoyment from my system. I poured myself a beer, put on some of my usual records, and started moving my speakers left and right by a few centimeters each time sitting and listening and then adjusting again.

After about a half an hour something astonishing happened. The sound stage suddenly expanded well beyond the walls of my room (both left to right and back to front), my living room disappeared and each recording I listened to was like being transported to a distinct physical listening space. The music seemed literally alive… dense, visceral, there.

I now have a concert hall in my living room. And a jazz bar, various festival stages, and any number of recording studios (even Rudy van Gelder’s!). I have spent the last five hours listening. Forgot to have dinner until it was way late. All because of budging my speakers maybe a few centimeters overall. I am gobsmacked.

I now have NO desire to upgrade anything in my system, ever again. My system now gives me everything I need. Tomorrow there will be more listening, more joy, more discovery. And every day after that too!

Many thanks to all the members of this forum for sharing tips and techniques around the tune method.

Eureka!
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by Whatsmynaim »

You found the right spot for the speakers! ..or it's just a very good beer ;)
My own experience with placing speakers for best tune is that with a good source and amp it's not that hard.
However. With a not so good source it's a huge struggle.
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by lejonklou »

Hi BruceP!

I’m happy to hear you are so thrilled! Does the initial impression last?

I’m only asking because there are wonderfully musical positions (hopefully that’s where your speakers are) and there are “trap spots” that make everything seem big and impressive, but quickly become tiresome. The key to success is to use the Tune Method when evaluating each move.
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by BruceP »

Hi Frederik, yes , I’m happy to report that we’re still ‘dialed in’ here. What a pleasure!

What was a bit of a surprise was that I thought my speakers were already in their ‘ideal’ positions after extensive tune-demming (accompanied by extensive beers of course!).

Then I upgraded my source from Majik DS to Klimax Renew DS. I liked the sound and was hearing deeper into the mix etc as you would expect. But in truth it wasn’t as much of a musical upgrade as I hoped and expected.

Thus the urge to tweak a bit to see if I could coax a bit more out of the system. That led to the Eureka moment.

Thinking back, with such a different sonic signature coming out of the KRDS I should’ve thought to reposition my speakers earlier. I guess it just helps to be curious!
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by lejonklou »

I’m really pleased to hear that, BruceP!

Indeed curiosity is extremely powerful. I don’t think it can be overrated.

If you ever get curious again (despite being so happy now and never needing another upgrade), I recommend you put listening to Källa on the top of your list. :)
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by BruceP »

Whatsmynaim wrote: 2022-05-17 07:37 You found the right spot for the speakers! ..or it's just a very good beer ;)
My own experience with placing speakers for best tune is that with a good source and amp it's not that hard.
However. With a not so good source it's a huge struggle.
Thanks Whatsmynaim, I think you are onto something… which is, “What beer was I drinking” while I was listening.

I’m maybe halfway through an absolutely epic listening session tonight and the fact is I have been drinking the same beer as last time.

Coincidence?
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by erho »

lejonklou wrote: 2019-01-10 22:56 What speakers do you have, Defender? Your positions sound odd to me. Very few speakers end up so far from the rear wall and they also seem too far apart.

I have written several articles about how to optimally install loudspeakers, some of which I'm rather proud. A few of them were published in Scandinavian magazines and I believe the longest and best was a series of articles in the magazine Hemmabio (no longer in print). In that series I went through all the speakers in a home cinema system - centre, left and right, subwoofer and surround channels and how to optimally position them. The only problem with this series was that the whole procedure required the reader to be able to listen, compare and decide whether it was better or worse. And who actually mastered that? I didn't mention the Tune Method (in which case it might not have been published), but I tried describing how to follow a melody and judging by the ease with which you could understand the music, etcetera. In retrospect I believe that a real, practical demonstration of the Tune Method is what had been needed to understand it all. Consequently I received very little feedback from the readers.

If you haven't learned the Tune Method well, I recommend that you ask a friend or a nearby forum member for help. Tuning your own system is always much harder than helping someone else. And if you're two, it often becomes more fun and much easier. No scheme will ever help, regardless of how clever or advances, if you don't know how to listen for a quick decision. It's absolutely essential to be able to tell better from worse!

In general I would try installing the speakers against the longer wall in a rectangular room. I would also try to get an unbroken wall, that is no door openings or windows or large cabinets. It's also good if the speakers don't have any big furniture in between them. If they can't "see" eachother, they get lonely and start playing individually instead of together.

Having a reasonably unbroken wall behind the speakers makes them get good support from the room. This wall needs to be steady and non resonant! Timber is good. Stone is good. Plaster with a cavity behind is terrible. If you bump your fist into the wall at various places, you will hear what will be added to your music. How other walls, doors, windows etc resonate is important as well, but the rear wall I usually find has the strongest influence.

Practical considerations might decide where you can put your speakers along the chosen wall. There are two methods of how to tune the speaker positions here, one I call the symmetrical and the other I call the asymmetrical method. The symmetrical method is easier and that's the only one I will mention in this text.

A symmetrical position along the rear wall is the best. That is; both speakers are equally far from their respective side walls or from openings in the rear wall. Now, using the Tune Method, you adjust:

1. Distance to rear wall (by ‘rear wall’ I mean the wall behind the speakers). Start close, make some jumps, I often do 10, 20, 30, 40 cm. Continue past the point where you felt it got worse. This is the hard part, because right now everything is wrong! Be patient and methodical, it will get easier later on.

2. Make the changes smaller. If you've settled for 30 cm, try it against 25. If 30 is still better, try 35. If 35 is better, start moving 1 cm at a time. Then 0.5 cm. That's good enough for now.

3. As the position is symmetrical, now adjust the distance apart. Did you start with 1.6 m in between each speaker? Try 1.5 and 1.7. Maybe even more? Move both speakers at once (symmetrical, right?) and keep the distance from the rear wall the same. Now it's good to be two doing the work and the listening! Tune the distance apart down to 0.5 cm.

4. When distance apart has been optimised, it's now time to test Toe In. If you are short of time, skip this step! I find that in about 95% of installations, toe in should be zero. There are exceptions, however, so if you have the time, it's worth testing. The point around which a loudspeaker rotates while remaining at the optimal distance from the rear wall and from the other speaker is the centre of the woofer, where the dustcap is. When you try toe in, rotate the speaker around this point. And take really small steps! A tiny angle, with a few mm more on one side of the cabinet than the other against the rear wall, often has a very strong effect. If it's worse than no toe in, try a little more. Continue until you get an idea of what toe in does - musically! Often it "smears" the sharpness of the bass notes and in some cases, this is better. Often it's not. The music will tell you.

5. If Toe In was better, you will need to keep track of the difference between inner corner and outer corner of the cabinet - to keep the amount of toe in constant. Otherwise you keep the speakers straight. Now redo step 3 and step 2, this time fine tuning them further. First do the distance apart, at least down to a quarter of a cm. Sometime those last mm gives the greatest AHA!-moments. Then do the distance against the rear wall - and here, you do the speakers one at a time! First the left and then the right. The rear wall might not be straight and you might end up with left and right speaker having a slight difference in their distance against rear wall.

Now you should be smiling from ear to ear and have problems sitting still when music is playing. There are more things to tune - isn't there always? - but today you've done enough. Have fun!
sorry to jump in here, but may I ask by placing the speaker at the long wall with your experiences is a greater or smaller distance apart better? And where is the listening place, do you create a triangle or how much you far away from the speakers? My room is 523 x 407, long wall placement do you recommend? best regards erich
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by Sopper »

Hi Erho,

I think the guide from Fredrik is spot on.
Methodic and use "tune" > is it better or worse? Each step again, eventually the music "snaps" and everything is super, it's easy to recognize
Don't rely on theory, just follow the steps
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by erho »

Sopper wrote: 2024-01-15 11:30 Hi Erho,

I think the guide from Fredrik is spot on.
Methodic and use "tune" > is it better or worse? Each step again, eventually the music "snaps" and everything is super, it's easy to recognize
Don't rely on theory, just follow the steps
You are right, but I always thought that it is also important where you sit and also the distance from speakers to listener...?
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by Sopper »

Yes, a triangle where distance to speakers is longer then the distance between speakers, is a good starting point
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by lejonklou »

Hi erho!

The distance apart (left to right speaker) is usually the same or close to the same as with the speakers against another wall.

I don’t consider it important at all where you sit. If you wish to maximise the stereo effect, you sit with the speakers at equal distance in front of you, like a triangle. How far away is something you can easily find out by moving around and listening.

As I don’t care much about the stereo effect, but very much about how the music moves me and makes musical sense, I can sit anywhere in the room, although usually not all the way into a corner, which gets rather boomy. The setting up instructions above result in the speakers playing in harmony with the room, regardless of where you are in it. Or whether you are listening from outside of the room.

All positioning instructions that focus on where you sit in relation to the speakers and exclude the room are totally pointless.
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by lejonklou »

By the way, does anyone feel that this topic should become a ‘sticky’, so that it’s always on top?
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

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lejonklou wrote: 2024-01-15 12:51 By the way, does anyone feel that this topic should become a ‘sticky’, so that it’s always on top?
The guide for sure! 👍
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by springwood64 »

lejonklou wrote: 2024-01-15 12:51 By the way, does anyone feel that this topic should become a ‘sticky’, so that it’s always on top?
Yes please, it's a really useful resource and can be hard to find even if you know it's somewhere in the forum.
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2024-01-15 12:51
YES!
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Re: Setting up loudspeakers for the best tune

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lejonklou wrote: 2024-01-15 12:44 Hi erho!

The distance apart (left to right speaker) is usually the same or close to the same as with the speakers against another wall.

I don’t consider it important at all where you sit. If you wish to maximise the stereo effect, you sit with the speakers at equal distance in front of you, like a triangle. How far away is something you can easily find out by moving around and listening.

As I don’t care much about the stereo effect, but very much about how the music moves me and makes musical sense, I can sit anywhere in the room, although usually not all the way into a corner, which gets rather boomy. The setting up instructions above result in the speakers playing in harmony with the room, regardless of where you are in it. Or whether you are listening from outside of the room.

All positioning instructions that focus on where you sit in relation to the speakers and exclude the room are totally pointless.
thank you very much. really helpful!
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