What do we know?

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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What do we know?

Post by beck »

Not much!

Ivor stated long ago that we cannot know what a recording sounds like.

Looking back on my hifi years I can firmly state: I do not know much at all!

What is then guiding me when trying to get a setup “right”? Well, I want the result to be near something I know from real life. I should be able to play/sing along and blend into the recording. Music should be in tune and have the “right” pace. I do also want to hit a sound with no “hot spots” bluring what is going on. Using clips is a great help to me.
All the above is rather vague when reading it but to me rather precise.

I have discovered that it is possible to end with a sound that makes all recordings sound good and enjoyable with no real problems but still very different. Both when I was concentrating on vinyl and now playing cd’s. This has come as a pleasent surprise to me but as Ivor stated I cannot know if it is the right “sound” I am getting.
In the end it does not matter that much.

What matters more to me is that I do not experience the same contact with the performer when listening to cd’s (digital) compared to analog records. Maybe a personal thing?
Will I ever get there with digital. I do not know?

Come to think of it I even when listening to cd’s prefer transfers from analog tape.

I know one thing though. This next video represent my kind of sound! :-)

https://youtu.be/v-jIQFtK0jQ

So on the one hand rather depressing but on the other hand very uplifting. That is what listening to music should be: “Uplifting”.
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2018-12-30 18:15What matters more to me is that I do not experience the same contact with the performer when listening to cd’s (digital) compared to analog records.
That’s what you know, beck!
beck
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Re: What do we know?

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote: 2018-12-31 09:51 That’s what you know, beck!
As I have been writing the above it has dawned on me that the one thing that might make the whole difference to me is the mastertape. Despite it’s flaws it has the ability to capture emotions and make a common platform for the sounds from the instruments to form a unified message to the listener. Funny as at the beginning of the recording history it was tried to be avoided to get best possible sound!
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Charlie1 »

I wanted to respond to your topic but wasn’t sure how to.

As I’m not a musician I don’t feel a need or temptation to play along with the performance in my mind but I know what you mean from our various chats.

I just want the music to communicate as best as possible. “a unified message to the listener” sounds good to me :)

Happy New Year all
beck
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Re: What do we know?

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote:
beck wrote:What matters more to me is that I do not experience the same contact with the performer when listening to cd’s (digital) compared to analog records.
That’s what you know, beck!
Spannko, you are a wise man! :-)

My journey with my cd player has made it increasingly clear to me that the recording (the master) is THE factor that determinds my enjoyment of the music played through my system.

Playing cd’s has made it very clear to me that “very good” digital recordings cannot move me the same way that old AAD recordings do. The old recordings reminds me of listening to analog vinyl.

So would an AAD cd played on a very good cd player be more enjoyable to me than playing a record with a digital recording on the Sondek? I would guess so but I do not know.

All this just to remind myself that when the system is sorted (tuned and all) it all comes down to the master.

Why is the analog mastertape so important to me? I do not know. All I can say is that even my great “direct cut” analog recordings cannot make my “heart sing” the same way.

In the end what matters to me is not how it sounds but how I feel when “it sounds”!
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Charlie1 »

I was much the same when I owned a CD player at home. Older recordings using AAD were usually enjoyable enough. Newer stuff in the early 90s could be awful. I think the way you have your player sounding is 100 times better than my Arcam Black Box 2/170 transport though. My Kans 2s didn't help either - very unforgiving of poor digital and/or bright sounding CDs as they were balanced for vinyl. Therefore, I generally used headphones when playing CD but the sound of many 90s albums irritated me, no matter what I played them on (car, cd walkman, etc.)
Lego
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Lego »

Charlie1 wrote: 2019-01-25 15:22 I was much the same when I owned a CD player at home. Older recordings using AAD were usually enjoyable enough. Newer stuff in the early 90s could be awful. I think the way you have your player sounding is 100 times better than my Arcam Black Box 2/170 transport though. My Kans 2s didn't help either - very unforgiving of poor digital and/or bright sounding CDs as they were balanced for vinyl. Therefore, I generally used headphones when playing CD but the sound of many 90s albums irritated me, no matter what I played them on (car, cd walkman, etc.)
I think all we are discussing here is comparisons.'I love vinyl and can't possibly enjoy digital recordings'. Take away all vinyl and analogue recordings and you will start enjoying digital recordings.
I find mono recordings more engaging than stereo recordings.
I know that tune
Charlie1
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Charlie1 »

Lego wrote: 2019-01-25 17:05 ...Take away all vinyl and analogue recordings and you will start enjoying digital recordings.
I seem to have a threshold where I am not interested in listening to music below a certain level of musical coherence. If that's all there is then I'd rather do something else. I remember in the 90s preferring road noise to the noise from the car stereo playing some new CDs. I think those days are mostly gone now though.
beck
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Re: What do we know?

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote:
Lego wrote: ...Take away all vinyl and analogue recordings and you will start enjoying digital recordings.
I seem to have a threshold where I am not interested in listening to music below a certain level of musical coherence. If that's all there is then I'd rather do something else. I remember in the 90s preferring road noise to the noise from the car stereo playing some new CDs. I think those days are mostly gone now though.
Maybe not surpricing that I feel the same way as Charlie1. With my cd player as main source I do not feel the urge to listen to music at home anymore.
Playing cd’s…………
Defender
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Defender »

agree with beck about old AAD recordings and its an absolute fraud when you compare the dynamic range of some vinyl and early CD‘s (which are most of the time the same) and later pressings of the same CD where dynamic range is down ... or even worst with some new High Res Downloads.
Bruce Springsteen Born to Run vinyl 1980 max DR 12 - min DR 11
HD records Download 24/96 max DR 9 - min DR 7
CD pressing 1985 max DR 15 - min DR12

feel like looking at CD pressings like a stamp collector.

Take care of what you buy as high res download.
Lego
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2019-01-25 21:12
Charlie1 wrote:
Lego wrote: ...Take away all vinyl and analogue recordings and you will start enjoying digital recordings.
I seem to have a threshold where I am not interested in listening to music below a certain level of musical coherence. If that's all there is then I'd rather do something else. I remember in the 90s preferring road noise to the noise from the car stereo playing some new CDs. I think those days are mostly gone now though.
Maybe not surpricing that I feel the same way as Charlie1. With my cd player as main source I do not feel the urge to listen to music at home anymore.
That could also easily be said about a badly setup lp12
I know that tune
beck
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Re: What do we know?

Post by beck »

Only speaking for myself I have had a range of systems with turntables and cd players side by side since the late 1980s and despite bad setup and low quality turntables the analog sound has always been the driving force in my listening.

So something is different to me.........

Maybe I am extra sensitive to the time based errors (jitter) that has been introduced to us with the rise of digital?
Playing cd’s…………
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Briain
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Re: What do we know?

Post by Briain »

Charlie1 wrote: 2019-01-25 18:32 ...I remember in the 90s preferring road noise to the noise from the car stereo playing some new CDs. I think those days are mostly gone now though.
A similar experience here! :-)

Back in the late 80s, I used to drive a somewhat highly tuned Lotus Elan S4 and behind the two seats was a carpeted sheet of plywood (separating the cabin from the boot) which contained two cheap looking speakers (one of which was open circuit). So, as the holes were already there, I procured a half decent radio and musicassette (coincidentally, the box for it turned up during a cellar search at the weekend, so I know it was a Panasonic 443) and some new speakers to fit the holes. Despite the speakers being right behind the seats (which are very light-weight affairs) this sounded just fine when stationary, but when driving, the engine and exhaust noise totally drowned out the sound (you could tell something was happening by the thumps in your back, but that was about it; 'drum and bass' or reggae were the only genres worth attempting to play). I soon realised that all it did was to increase the already mighty din and thus it never got used (other than a couple off occasions when I was parked and waiting for somebody).

Being a radio ham, I thought it might be fun to install a radio, principally for chatting to my radio friends when heading up north for radio events (holidays with lots of booze and an antenna to make it all seem more respectable). I had a very nice (and tiny) Pye Reporter in stock...

Image

..,so that got fitted to the centre tunnel cover and the rear wind mounted MW/VHF radio antenna was replaced by a 70 MHz communications antenna (and some internal radials installed into the boot area; it's a fibreglass body, so no ground plane from the shell). That worked just great when parked, but with it being a fibreglass car, the ignition noise was not screened from the antenna and the 'range' dropped from many miles down to a few hundred meters (basically, the other parry had to be a few cars in front of you otherwise it was drowsed out by the roar from the spark plug cables acting as broadcast antennas).

Once again, back to road and engine noise being the only source of in car entertainment (though in that car, I must confess that it was actually very entertaining)!

Bri

NB You can get 'lossy' spark plug cables, but these are intended for HF. I did find out that inductive cables actually existed, but I never did find a source of them.
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ThomasOK
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Re: What do we know?

Post by ThomasOK »

This is the first thread I found that I could make a good excuse for posting this. Isn't it wonderful when our hobby, popular culture and proper English all come together? :-)

Image

And it is something that I, and hopefully we, know.
The LP12 Whisperer
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beck
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Re: What do we know?

Post by beck »

Thank you Thomas for getting me back on track.

My cd days are coming to an end. Despite great sound I never feel fulfilled when listening.

I know I only have one way to go:

I have to get back into vinyl! (plural) :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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