The Linn forum is officially dead

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by donuk » 2018-10-11 09:35

I say this slightly tongue in cheek, but...

I commented earlier that the Linn forum simply needed better moderating.
It is interesting that, from my point of view, we have had a most informative and adult conversation on this thread about a sensitive, and for some, emotional issue.

But it has been mature and friendly. I really could not see this happening so well without some regular characters wading in with abuse and absolute knowledge....

So, Linn, it can be done. Well done Mr L and moderators. If only you allowed non tunedem views on this forum it would be perfect..... But I am still here so they must be tolerant.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-10-11 10:10

Hi Don,
Nice to hear more from you of late.

You can express non-tunedem, but only after you've first talked about musical elements :) Also, tunedem is just the shortcut. No one has to use it, even here. You can just listen to a new option/component for a couple of days and then report back your impressions on the musical differences (I've done this increasingly more of late, trying different components - it just takes more time and usually only confirms my initial impressions.) I think the purpose is just to stop endless talk about soundstage, bass control etc. and keep the focus on musical engagement, which I'm sure is where your priorities lie as well. If an upgrade also adds more refined treble, for example, then just mention it afterwards as an additional benefit.

Ref the forum, I don't think Gilad liked some of the content and I don't think all dealers were great fans either, for various reasons. It is a shame. I miss it being there more than I thought I would. But I've always much preferred this forum so probably why I'm not too fussed.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-11 10:15

I certainly agree, more rigorous moderation would have been helpful, but then the forum wouldn’t have been the one everyone is missing. It would have been more like this one, which most people who miss the Linn forum think should change and be like the old Linn forum!

I think everyone agrees that Linn has to change with the times if they want to survive. And I think most people would like to see Linn survive. It won’t be long before us old dinosaurs are pushing up daisies, so Linn have to work hard on replacing us. Imagine the frustration at Linn HQ, and the confusion of Linns hard won new customers when reading the forum to discover that SO is actually so difficult to set up only one globetrotting individual has the necessary skills to do it correctly and it won’t be the person they were planning on buying from. That is not good for business. It’s not good for Linn and it’s not good for their retailers. Ultimately, it’s not good for us either.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by macrotech2 » 2018-10-11 10:47

Spannko wrote:I certainly agree, more rigorous moderation would have been helpful, but then the forum wouldn’t have been the one everyone is missing. It would have been more like this one, which most people who miss the Linn forum think should change and be like the old Linn forum!
Really? Where do you get that idea from? I certainly don’t.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-11 10:50

macrotech2 wrote:
Spannko wrote:I certainly agree, more rigorous moderation would have been helpful, but then the forum wouldn’t have been the one everyone is missing. It would have been more like this one, which most people who miss the Linn forum think should change and be like the old Linn forum!
Really? Where do you get that idea from? I certainly don’t.
Can you be a bit more specific please? I’m not sure which idea you’re referring to.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-11 11:36

Spannko wrote: which most people who miss the Linn forum think should change and be like the old Linn forum!
I don't think that's true. Most people who have just joined here in the past few weeks have been extremely respectful of this forum and its ethos, even when raising questions about it.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-11 11:37

Spannko wrote: Imagine the frustration at Linn HQ, and the confusion of Linns hard won new customers when reading the forum to discover that SO is actually so difficult to set up only one globetrotting individual has the necessary skills to do it correctly and it won’t be the person they were planning on buying from. That is not good for business. It’s not good for Linn and it’s not good for their retailers. Ultimately, it’s not good for us either.
That's what moderation is for. Simple.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-11 12:05

sunbeamgls wrote:
Spannko wrote: Imagine the frustration at Linn HQ, and the confusion of Linns hard won new customers when reading the forum to discover that SO is actually so difficult to set up only one globetrotting individual has the necessary skills to do it correctly and it won’t be the person they were planning on buying from. That is not good for business. It’s not good for Linn and it’s not good for their retailers. Ultimately, it’s not good for us either.
That's what moderation is for. Simple.
Yes, of course. But then the forum wouldn’t have been the one that everyone misses! You can’t have it both ways!

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-10-11 12:12

I'm with Spannko on this one.

Also, Tony L who runs pinkfish said the following today ref the Linn forum and the moderation time required:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads ... st-3498335

The Linn forum was light touch but that doesn't mean they were not often checking the content, but that would have mostly been limited to UK office working hours anyway. Mind you, they also had non-employee admins didn't they? But then, how easy was it to escalate a concern to Linn during the weekend?

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-11 12:20

Charlie1 wrote:I'm with Spannko on this one.

Also, Tony L who runs pinkfish said the following today ref the Linn forum and the moderation time required:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads ... st-3498335

The Linn forum was light touch but that doesn't mean they were not often checking the content, but that would have mostly been limited to UK office working hours anyway. Mind you, they also had non-employee admins didn't they? But then, how easy was it to escalate a concern to Linn during the weekend?
By extension, should there be a Lejonklou forum? Why is this one different?

(and no, I'm not advocating closing the Lejonklou forum at all, its a good resource, just playing devil's advocate on the "logic" in play).
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-11 12:22

Spannko wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:
Spannko wrote: Imagine the frustration at Linn HQ, and the confusion of Linns hard won new customers when reading the forum to discover that SO is actually so difficult to set up only one globetrotting individual has the necessary skills to do it correctly and it won’t be the person they were planning on buying from. That is not good for business. It’s not good for Linn and it’s not good for their retailers. Ultimately, it’s not good for us either.
That's what moderation is for. Simple.
Yes, of course. But then the forum wouldn’t have been the one that everyone misses! You can’t have it both ways!
Just because many of us will miss the forum, it doesn't mean we think all of the content was good or valuable. Self moderation of what to read and what not to read is also possible.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-11 12:23

sunbeamgls wrote:
Spannko wrote: which most people who miss the Linn forum think should change and be like the old Linn forum!
I don't think that's true. Most people who have just joined here in the past few weeks have been extremely respectful of this forum and its ethos, even when raising questions about it.
A respectful challenge is just as oppositional as a non respectful challenge. Constant “respectful” challenging is a whinging behaviour, intended to break the will of the decision maker and get them to change their mind.
Last edited by Spannko on 2018-10-11 12:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-11 12:27

sunbeamgls wrote:
Spannko wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:
That's what moderation is for. Simple.
Yes, of course. But then the forum wouldn’t have been the one that everyone misses! You can’t have it both ways!
Just because many of us will miss the forum, it doesn't mean we think all of the content was good or valuable. Self moderation of what to read and what not to read is also possible.
That’s because you’re an experienced audiophile. New or potential Linn customers would be confused.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by DavidHB » 2018-10-11 12:27

sunbeamgls wrote:
Spannko wrote:Imagine the frustration at Linn HQ, and the confusion of Linns hard won new customers when reading the forum to discover that SO is actually so difficult to set up only one globetrotting individual has the necessary skills to do it correctly and it won’t be the person they were planning on buying from. That is not good for business. It’s not good for Linn and it’s not good for their retailers. Ultimately, it’s not good for us either.
That's what moderation is for. Simple.
Well, yes, but in the case Spannko mentions (which I think is a case in point), heavy moderation, to excise or emasculate Paul's often ground-breaking contributions, would not have helped solve the problem. In that case, Linn responded in what I believe is the only responsible way - they re-wrote SO both to make it more user friendly (admittedly at the cost of some user choice, but that's the way with these things) and to enable it to perform better "out of the box". I won't be able to form a view as to how new SO performs on my (Paul tweaked) main system until the new software is Exakt capable, but initial experiments with my Kiko are quite encouraging.

Linn's announcement says that they closed the forum because it would require more input from their end than they sensibly had the resources for. Personally, I don't doubt that this was part, and probably the major part, of their thinking. I don't completely buy the "Gilad was fed up with the forum" line; he's been MD for six or seven years, and there's been plenty to annoy him throughout that period. Linn have recently been putting more effort into the dealer network, including culling what they regard as underperforming outlets (and saying publicly that they have done so); I believe that this is more indicative of their thinking. The fact that a company which is refreshing its product line wants to concentrate its sales and marketing effort on its best prospects of profitable business should not come as a surprise.

All of that said, I still think that the closure of the forum was utterly wrong-headed, and that Linn will come to regret it. Indeed, with the announcement that there will be a new Development forum, one could say that the process of repenting at leisure has already started ...

David

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by donuk » 2018-10-11 14:14

It seems that most of us experienced Linnies on this thread have been invited to join the development forum.

I have too. After getting over the one second flattery that they thought me worth asking, I thought about it a bit more. Unless more details come up to change my mind, I will not join.

I think Linn are wanting to have their cake and eat it.

Linn want help in free field testing of their product without providing the necessary nursery slopes for less experienced Linnies to enjoy the community and get help with their products. They are also just as likely to be nice people whom I would wish to befriend.

I happen to be a beta tester for another product, nothing to do with Linn. Periodically I get privileges and presents for my efforts. Are we to see this? So I am saying that if Linn want to conduct field trials and be hard-nosed about the value of a community of give and take, they should pay for them just like nearly every other company does. (The notable exception of course is Microsoft who never get beyond the beta stage in reality).

I have no ill feeling about Linn, may well buy from them again, still have a great relationship with my local dealer, but it is the end of an era. A bit like leaving school again, I will have to make a deliberate effort to keep up with my friends.

We have all lost out. If I had not been on the Linn forum, I would not have met Ozzzie, and would not have met Fredrick. Personally I think it would be appropriate for Fredrick to close this thread soon so we can all move on, although please give plenty of warning if you ever want to close the opportunity for friends to PM each other via these learned pages.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by DavidHB » 2018-10-11 16:15

I understand where you are coming from, Don, and I agree with the facts you mention. The benefits I have had from the Linn Forum are similar to, and if anything greater than those you describe. But I shall still join the development forum, if I can do so when it is up and running.

Yes, Linn are trying to have their their cake and eat it. Or rather they are trying to undo some of the damage they did to themselves when they closed the forum in what was obviously a precipitate manner. But if that gives us an opportunity to feed back to Linn, even on a much more restrictive basis than hitherto, I want to make use of that opportunity.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-10-11 16:18

Why have I not been invited to Linn's LP12 Development Forum? :(

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by DavidHB » 2018-10-11 16:54

Charlie1 wrote:Why have I not been invited to Linn's LP12 Development Forum? :(
Actually, no-one has, as yet. Some of us have received notification that a forum will be established quite soon. This will be a software, not an LP12, development forum. The loss of the LP12 forum is IMO the worst aspect of the Linn Forum closure, as it will be particularly difficult to replace.

I'm guessing, but I reckon that the message was sent to known beta testers for whom Linn have an email address. Typically, these would be people who used the "Report to Linn" feature in Kazoo in respect of a beta build, and/or perhaps contributors on beta build threads in the old development forum.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-10-11 17:44

Thanks David. I should have added a smiley as it was only in jest. You're right, the main LP12 section was incredibly useful, what with some highly experienced dealers regularly contributing, plus you could potentially get input from David W and co.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Fitter Stoke » 2018-10-11 18:04

From my own personal perspective, I'm both surprised and disappointed at Linn's wholesale deletion of their forums. Surprised because the forums generated a good deal of interest and knowledge of the company's products (especially significant I would have thought given Linn's avoidance of advertising in recent years*) and disappointed because, for all their foibles and occasionally cliquey nature, I very much enjoyed reading them. Without the forums, I'm less likely to visit Linn's website and in consequence may well lose sight and/or interest in Linn's products and upgrades going forward. I doubt Linn would give a monkey's mind, especially given that they've already banked the non VAT and dealer share of nearly £50k of my hard-earned over the last eight years. However, without the infectious and enthusiastic advocacy of their faithful forum contributors I doubt I'll be tempted to spend much more on Linn technology.

(*I note a full page ad for the Selekt DSM on Page 38 of the October issue of Hi-Fi+, the first time I've seen a Linn ad in the domestic hifi press for many years. That there's a very favourable review for that product in the same magazine is, I'm sure, coincidental.)

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by vincula » 2018-10-11 19:16

I'm sure Naim followers might have a big grin in their faces after such a stupid decision.

Regards,

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Paulq » 2018-10-11 19:25

DavidHB wrote:I understand where you are coming from, Don, and I agree with the facts you mention. The benefits I have had from the Linn Forum are similar to, and if anything greater than those you describe. But I shall still join the development forum, if I can do so when it is up and running.

Yes, Linn are trying to have their their cake and eat it. Or rather they are trying to undo some of the damage they did to themselves when they closed the forum in what was obviously a precipitate manner. But if that gives us an opportunity to feed back to Linn, even on a much more restrictive basis than hitherto, I want to make use of that opportunity.

David
This is slightly OT David but very relevant update. A well-known poster from the Linn Forum who is now on HiFi Wigwam, actually wrote a personal letter to Gilad outlining all the salient arguments to re-open it that have been proffered here an on other forums. I trust that issues like loss of knowledge, valuable contact with their client base and, ultimately, footfall on their website was adequately covered in his pleadings.

The reply he received was pretty direct in that it was a done deal and no going back. Apart from the testing of their products via the forum you mention I am no longer sure that Linn are receptive to any kind of feedback other than debit and credit cards in machines.....

I like their products but have only disdain for them as an organisation.

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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by Chapelier » 2018-10-12 04:34

I am shocked by that news. I've been around that forum for years, chat with multiple users, even spoke over the phone for advices. There was indeed a lot of knowledge in that community.

I wonder if part of the reason they closed the forum might be that it was also a publicity for older products. I remember reading threads about the quality of older products (Kairn, for example), and deciding to buy them second hand, based on the knowledge I'd find over there.

And having the possibility to read Philbo's answer to some questions, as well as other staff members from Linn, I think it was priceless.
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-12 11:12

Chapelier wrote:
I wonder if part of the reason they closed the forum might be that it was also a publicity for older products. I remember reading threads about the quality of older products (Kairn, for example), and deciding to buy them second hand, based on the knowledge I'd find over there.
If that was a reason, its shortsighted. Older products supported for free (to Linn) by a community means higher second hand values, which means more existing owners can sell that kit for a good price and afford new kit. It also provides continuing support for new kit when it gets old, which means that customers feel more comfortable in buying expensive gear for the long term.
Now, as a customer, you can think, hmmm, when Linn stops support, what do I do? Do I want to spend so much on equipment that cannot be supported beyond the manufacturer's decisions? Or do I buy from a manufacturer with a vibrant community that continues the support unofficially?
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Re: The Linn forum is officially dead

Post by DavidHB » 2018-10-12 18:11

sunbeamgls wrote:
Chapelier wrote:I wonder if part of the reason they closed the forum might be that it was also a publicity for older products. I remember reading threads about the quality of older products (Kairn, for example), and deciding to buy them second hand, based on the knowledge I'd find over there.
If that was a reason, its shortsighted. Older products supported for free (to Linn) by a community means higher second hand values, which means more existing owners can sell that kit for a good price and afford new kit. It also provides continuing support for new kit when it gets old, which means that customers feel more comfortable in buying expensive gear for the long term.
Now, as a customer, you can think, hmmm, when Linn stops support, what do I do? Do I want to spend so much on equipment that cannot be supported beyond the manufacturer's decisions? Or do I buy from a manufacturer with a vibrant community that continues the support unofficially?
I agree with Sunbeam. In fact, I think that the real reason for closing the forum was the one that Linn have stated in their announcement, albeit in marketing weasel-speak. In plain English, it goes, "We have better things to do than baby-sitting a forum 24/7, so we're shutting it down." Of course that's still massively short-sighted. as well as being grossly discourteous to faithful forum contributors. Linn could at least have kept things running until they had arranged a properly smooth transition to WAM, if that's what they wanted to do.

All of that said, Linn, like any other Hi-Fi manufacturer must be judged by the quality of their products. Part of that is of course customer support, on which Linn have so far had a pretty good record on the whole. The loss of the forum is a huge black mark, but it's not the whole of the story by any means.

David

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