Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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bonzo
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Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by bonzo » 2018-09-25 01:42

If a minor tweak/upgrade is made (not talking actual components/boxes here) and I can now finally understand lyrics that I was unable to previously, does this mean the tune is better? Can the fact that it’s easier to hear the words in a song Not improve or even hurt the tune? I hope this made sense. As always thank you for your time.
Jon
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2018-09-25 10:28

I wouldn’t say so. I think intelligibility and tune playing are two different things. I remember a dealer initially preferring Royd Coniston Rs over Linn Kans because it was easier to hear the lyrics. I could see his point, but still preferred the Kans. It was only a matter of weeks before he reinstalled the Kans into his own system for their superior musicality.

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by bonzo » 2018-09-25 10:38

Thanks for your response Spannko. Logically I struggle that easier to understand lyrics don’t result in better tune. I’m not disagreeing with you at all. My thought process is if lyrics are now easier to understand, wouldn’t the tune be better as more information is being presented than before?
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by anthony » 2018-09-25 11:20

bonzo wrote:Thanks for your response Spannko. Logically I struggle that easier to understand lyrics don’t result in better tune. I’m not disagreeing with you at all. My thought process is if lyrics are now easier to understand, wouldn’t the tune be better as more information is being presented than before?
No.

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-25 11:33

Spannko wrote:I wouldn’t say so. I think intelligibility and tune playing are two different things.
I suspect that you mean that clarity and tunefulness are two different things; if you do, I agree with you, but I think that changes the answer to the original question. In a good song, words and music are essentially complementary; each contributes to the other. Thus, all else being equal (which is rarely the case in the real world), being able to hear the words better should also enable us to engage with the music better.

For many years, a track I have often used as a test piece is "Under African Skies" on Paul Simon's "Graceland", in which there is a duet with Linda Ronstadt - two voices in approximately the same register but of very different character. A favourite Tune Dem type test of mine is to hear how well the voices are separately distinguishable but at the same time blend, with the words (which are important, because they contain a number of subtle references) coming across clearly. If there is one test that convinces me how much better the system I have today performs than the one I had 30 years ago, it is that one.

David

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2018-09-25 13:36

DavidHB wrote:
Spannko wrote:I wouldn’t say so. I think intelligibility and tune playing are two different things.
I suspect that you mean that clarity and tunefulness are two different things; if you do, I agree with you, but I think that changes the answer to the original question. In a good song, words and music are essentially complementary; each contributes to the other. Thus, all else being equal (which is rarely the case in the real world), being able to hear the words better should also enable us to engage with the music better.

For many years, a track I have often used as a test piece is "Under African Skies" on Paul Simon's "Graceland", in which there is a duet with Linda Ronstadt - two voices in approximately the same register but of very different character. A favourite Tune Dem type test of mine is to hear how well the voices are separately distinguishable but at the same time blend, with the words (which are important, because they contain a number of subtle references) coming across clearly. If there is one test that convinces me how much better the system I have today performs than the one I had 30 years ago, it is that one.

David
I refer the honourable member to the answer given by anthony to bonzo :)

Actually, I did mean intelligibility and not clarity. Inteligability is a well known phenomenon often described by the Speech Transmission Index, for which there is an IEC standard.

Your test is an interesting one, and has served you well. However, it’s not a Tune Method evaluation.

Sorry to be so negative.

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Lego » 2018-12-05 21:51

Spannko wrote:
2018-09-25 13:36
DavidHB wrote:
Spannko wrote:I wouldn’t say so. I think intelligibility and tune playing are two different things.
I suspect that you mean that clarity and tunefulness are two different things; if you do, I agree with you, but I think that changes the answer to the original question. In a good song, words and music are essentially complementary; each contributes to the other. Thus, all else being equal (which is rarely the case in the real world), being able to hear the words better should also enable us to engage with the music better.

For many years, a track I have often used as a test piece is "Under African Skies" on Paul Simon's "Graceland", in which there is a duet with Linda Ronstadt - two voices in approximately the same register but of very different character. A favourite Tune Dem type test of mine is to hear how well the voices are separately distinguishable but at the same time blend, with the words (which are important, because they contain a number of subtle references) coming across clearly. If there is one test that convinces me how much better the system I have today performs than the one I had 30 years ago, it is that one.

David
I refer the honourable member to the answer given by anthony to bonzo :)

Actually, I did mean intelligibility and not clarity. Inteligability is a well known phenomenon often described by the Speech Transmission Index, for which there is an IEC standard.

Your test is an interesting one, and has served you well. However, it’s not a Tune Method evaluation.

Sorry to be so negative.
So you are saying Spannko that its possible for something to tune dem better but you might understand less about what the vocalist is singing about. I find that very hard to believe and if that is the case the tune dem is seriously flawed
I know that tune

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-12-05 22:56

I don't think Spannko is implying that the 2 are mutually exclusive. Just that greater intelligibility is not necessarily more musical. There is, perhaps, no direct correlation between the 2 parameters. If you get a system with a high level of intelligibility AND musicality, then happy days.

Case in point demonstrated at the 2017 Munich show. Kudos room playing the 606s or the 707s (before the Naim monkey was in charge if the volume control) was very enjoyable musically but not the last word in absolute intelligibility. Whereas the Magico room (€60k to 70k speakers) was incredible on intelligibility but was totally unengaging from a musical perspective. This gave me a new insight into the approach of the typical magazine review...

The TAD room meanwhile had about 110% of the musicality of the Kudos systems but probably around 90% of the intelligibility of the Magico room.

So, a very easy list of preferences across these 3 systems:

TAD



Kudos

















Magico
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2018-12-05 23:29

Lego wrote:
2018-12-05 21:51
So you are saying Spannko that its possible for something to tune dem better but you might understand less about what the vocalist is singing about. I find that very hard to believe and if that is the case the tune dem is seriously flawed
No, I’m saying that clearer lyrics doesn’t equal better tune!

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-12-07 18:40

Spannko wrote:
2018-12-05 23:29
Lego wrote:
2018-12-05 21:51
So you are saying Spannko that its possible for something to tune dem better but you might understand less about what the vocalist is singing about. I find that very hard to believe and if that is the case the tune dem is seriously flawed
No, I’m saying that clearer lyrics doesn’t equal better tune!
This reads like clearer lyrics never means a better tune. Was that your intention? Or do you mean that clearer lyrics does not necessarily mean a better tune?
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-12-07 18:50

I recall hearing lyrics more clearer both with and without better tune.

With = fine tuning arm setup / various upgrades
Without = Swapping over from M140s to Kans

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by donuk » 2018-12-16 11:00

No.
Those who have been involved with long distance broadcast reception (DXing with DSWCI) will know that intelligibility is improved if you cut frequencies below 150Hz and above, say 3 kHz.

Not what the composer intended perhaps, but easier to hear the words, and dare I say it, the tune.....

Donuk sunny downtown York
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2018-12-16 11:47

sunbeamgls wrote:
2018-12-07 18:40
Spannko wrote:
2018-12-05 23:29

No, I’m saying that clearer lyrics doesn’t equal better tune!
This reads like clearer lyrics never means a better tune. Was that your intention? Or do you mean that clearer lyrics does not necessarily mean a better tune?
Yes, the “necessarily” bit.

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2018-12-16 12:04

donuk wrote:
2018-12-16 11:00
No.
Those who have been involved with long distance broadcast reception (DXing with DSWCI) will know that intelligibility is improved if you cut frequencies below 150Hz and above, say 3 kHz.

Not what the composer intended perhaps, but easier to hear the words, and dare I say it, the tune.....

Donuk sunny downtown York
What are you saying no to, Don?

Your comment about it also being easier to hear the tune has made me wonder if that when you talk about tune, you mean the individual notes. TuneDem refers to pitch accuracy, which is related to the notes harmonic structure, which as I’m sure you’re fully aware, is quite different. Could this explain why you’re often at odds with this forums notion of tune?

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by u252agz » 2018-12-16 15:55

Not sure about relationship between clearer lyrics and musicality :

but in my experience, the more musical a system gets- the more emotion is conveyed by the vocalist.
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Lego » 2018-12-29 13:30

Spannko wrote:
2018-12-05 23:29
Lego wrote:
2018-12-05 21:51
So you are saying Spannko that its possible for something to tune dem better but you might understand less about what the vocalist is singing about. I find that very hard to believe and if that is the case the tune dem is seriously flawed
No, I’m saying that clearer lyrics doesn’t equal better tune!
I wasn't talking about clearer lyrics, in some cases ive heard less clear lyrics but I've understood more about what the song was about.
I know that tune

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2018-12-30 04:45

I don’t get you, tbh. How do you really know what the song is about?

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-12-30 12:15

Spannko wrote:
2018-12-30 04:45
I don’t get you, tbh. How do you really know what the song is about?
Presumably, through the emotions being conveyed, not the words themselves. As an example, there are many positive words, when expressed in a sarcastic tone, that take on a completely different meaning.
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2018-12-30 14:44

I’m thinking that there’s the artists original intent, and then the listeners interpretation of what they hear. How can we ever know that the two are the same?

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by u252agz » 2019-01-02 11:35

sunbeamgls wrote:
2018-12-30 12:15
Spannko wrote:
2018-12-30 04:45
I don’t get you, tbh. How do you really know what the song is about?
Presumably, through the emotions being conveyed, not the words themselves. As an example, there are many positive words, when expressed in a sarcastic tone, that take on a completely different meaning.
In my line of work we are told (and this is evidence based) that the tone of the words/message is far more important than the words themselves, in terms of verbal communication.


Not strictly relevant to this post but for what it is worth - body language is also considered to be more important than the words themselves.
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by beck » 2019-01-02 13:44

Let us put it to the test. Here are two takes of the same song. Which has the clearest lyrics if any (focus on parts that are not easy to understand, try the end where it fades out) and which do you prefer tune wise:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i6j84zq8rh2wc ... 1.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qjko7iv0ukoz1 ... 6.mov?dl=0

Remember, I do not have the answer.

This will not stop the discussion but fun non the less!

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by beck » 2019-01-02 16:08

As the above comparison is not easy I can only say that I have experienced that lyrics has become clearer when getting the setup better (and more tuneful) but if this is a one to one relationship I do not know. I would guess that it is possible to make lyrics clearer by some kind of specific distortion of the sound.

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Lego » 2019-01-02 18:07

Spannko wrote:
2018-12-30 04:45
I don’t get you, tbh. How do you really know what the song is about?
Not a great example as naivety due to age also played a part when I first heard the song.
'The lunatic is on the grass' Even though on hearing this clearly on first hearing I had an image of a guy in a straight jacket rolling around the grass' and I have friends in their 50s and older with that same image today.I can't remember what upgrade it was but I had a different perspective of that line,must admit I can't say it's more accurate
I know that tune

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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-01-02 21:11

Keep this up and we're going to wander into the misheard lyrics topic:

"Scuse me while I kiss this guy"

Hmmm, I guess we just did!
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Re: Does clearer lyrics = better tune?

Post by Spannko » 2019-03-12 23:40

To support the idea that clearer lyrics don’t = better tune, speech clarity, or intelligibility, C50 = (sound energy <50ms) : (sound energy >50ms) expressed in dB.

So it can be seen that pitch/tune is irrelevant to intelligibility.

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