New Linn Forum

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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New Linn Forum

Post by Spannko » 2018-09-24 20:08

Whilst Linn decide what to do with their forum, I’m thinking this gives us a great opportunity to discuss how we’d like to see it moderated, what we liked and didn’t like about the old forum, and perhaps come up with some ideas we’d like to see introduced.

Of course Linn will decide what changes, if any, will be made, but as it appears they read this forum from time to time, any particularly interesting suggestions may just influence their final decision.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-09-24 20:32

I don't really miss it tbh. I only really enjoyed trying to help people when I could, especially newcomers. Anyway, besides the point.

I think I'd prefer firmer moderation but that raises the question of how firm and exactly what is to be moderated. The rules here are straight forward, which appeals to me, but I'm not sure what additional rules Linn would be willing to impose.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-24 20:56

I heard rumors that Gilad was not amused about some discussions, e.g. Space Optimization, that did make the product (and hence Linn) not look too good.
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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Music Lover » 2018-09-24 21:08

Jumanji wrote:I heard rumors that Gilad was not amused about some discussions, e.g. Space Optimization, that did make the product (and hence Linn) not look too good.
J
Feedback on limitations and product suggestions are extremely valuable, making the products better!

Rest be sure...you always have unhappy customers. You either invite them and listen to them, to be able to address the niggles fast - or you going to loose them.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by matthias » 2018-09-24 21:31

They should get rid of this endless quoting of several former posts.
There are forums which allow only to quote one post, much better.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Fitter Stoke » 2018-09-24 22:05

As the latest of many Waterfoot emigres, my initial impression of this site is that it seems to have all of the welcoming and informative aspects of the old Linn Forum with (I trust) none of the puerile in-jokes, cronyism and occasional unpleasantness that had increasingly hampered the old site of late. If and when the Linn Forum reemerges I (and I hope it does) I hope it follows the Lejonklou forum's example. In the meantime I'll try to hide my guilt at not owning any of this company's fine amplifiers!

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-09-24 23:02

matthias wrote:They should get rid of this endless quoting of several former posts.
There are forums which allow only to quote one post, much better.
Yes, I find that frustrating too.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Gussy » 2018-09-25 08:30

A ‘troubleshooting’ section and a ‘development’ section would be more than enough for me.

There’s a wealth of information in LinnDocs which is still online.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-25 09:46

Because of the interesting similarities and differences between the Linn and Lejonklou philosophies, I agree that this is a useful place for discussion for owners of both brands. But I don't feel inhibited by the lack of a Linn-specific sub-forum.

I also hope that folk will not abandon the Linn forum completely, when it returns, so that we can maintain the generally civilised level of discussion that is found on both forums. To be frank, I don't at all mind the good (if sometimes puerile) humour you get on the Linn forum. But I do object to disrespect, name calling, flame wars and the like, and the Linn moderators have tended to come down pretty hard on such things. If memory serves me, the Linn forum went through a worse patch a few years back than anything we have seen recently, and a number of people were (quite properly IMO) permanently banned at that time.

The lengthy closure of the Linn forum still mystifies me. Part of it may be practicalities; in a smallish company (£20m turnover a year or thereabouts), there may be only limited effort available for moderation at what must be a very busy time. However, there are also worrying signs that, under Gilad's direction, the company is becoming more sensitive and less tolerant than it should be of different approaches to and perceptions of its products to its own. Ivor was (and I daresay still is) a buccaneer with a devil-may-care approach. I have never met Gilad, but I know a number of people who have; from what I can gather, his approach is very different to that of his father.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by matss » 2018-09-25 09:49

Music Lover wrote:Rest be sure...you always have unhappy customers. You either invite them and listen to them, to be able to address the niggles fast - or you going to loose them.
So very true in my book too. Some of my best stories on this is how I have heard Harley Davidson work together with their customer base.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by timster » 2018-09-25 10:11

Like Gussy, as long as there's still support, troubleshooting and development sections I don't see a major issue. I'll miss the Music forum though. Some good pointers there.
There was a lot of irrelevant and perhaps unhelpful stuff as well though, that could be moved elsewhere.
Perhaps some kind soul with the technical know-how and resources could start up an unofficial Linn forum to take the strain. If Gilad doesn't like some of the discussions on the official one, they could just be moved "off site".
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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-09-25 10:25

DavidHB wrote:The lengthy closure of the Linn forum still mystifies me. Part of it may be practicalities; in a smallish company (£20m turnover a year or thereabouts), there may be only limited effort available for moderation at what must be a very busy time. However, there are also worrying signs that, under Gilad's direction, the company is becoming more sensitive and less tolerant than it should be of different approaches to and perceptions of its products to its own. Ivor was (and I daresay still is) a buccaneer with a devil-may-care approach. I have never met Gilad, but I know a number of people who have; from what I can gather, his approach is very different to that of his father.
I reckon that was a big part of it - trying to police the forum 24 hours a day, including weekends.

I think Gilad is making the company his own. That's probably the only way it can survive anyway. If you're trying to be like someone else then that will be very unrewarding over time. I can't really imagine what it's like to run a business like that, but I'm sure I'd want to be fully engaged and excited by the products in development. I suppose it is slowly becoming more of a reflection of his personality, values, approach, etc. Part of that personality might be to seek advise and feedback from others within Linn, but equally, it might not. I guess it will be what it will be. My only hope is they continue to make the LP12 to the current high standards (bar the Radikal motor/Urika contact issue :( -- I do hope something is being done about that on the quiet!!)

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-25 12:10

Charlie1 wrote:I think Gilad is making the company his own. That's probably the only way it can survive anyway. If you're trying to be like someone else then that will be very unrewarding over time. I can't really imagine what it's like to run a business like that, but I'm sure I'd want to be fully engaged and excited by the products in development. I suppose it is slowly becoming more of a reflection of his personality, values, approach, etc. Part of that personality might be to seek advise and feedback from others within Linn, but equally, it might not. I guess it will be what it will be.
I agree entirely. The free-wheeling tendencies we have seen in the past also had their down side, of course. I just hope that there is no tendency to try and curb the innovative spirit in which many enthusiast owners have been able to use Linn products in the past. To give just one example, I think it would be a mistake to make Space Optimisation more of a closed system than it is at present. And the Forum is of course the natural home for innovative discussion.
Charlie1 wrote:My only hope is they continue to make the LP12 to the current high standards (bar the Radikal motor/Urika contact issue :( -- I do hope something is being done about that on the quiet!!)
I guess that in a modular system with as long a history as the LP12, there are always going to be glitches of that kind. Linn's track record in fixing such problems is pretty good on the whole. And, certainly where the LP12 is concerned, there are some very good dealers who are prepared to engage with Linn when problems arise. Also, the recently released products seem to be up to the standards of their predecessors. I have a Lingo 4 in my LP12, and I cannot fault either its build quality or its performance.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by AsianWong » 2018-09-26 02:46

timster wrote:Like Gussy, as long as there's still support, troubleshooting and development sections I don't see a major issue. I'll miss the Music forum though. Some good pointers there.
There was a lot of irrelevant and perhaps unhelpful stuff as well though, that could be moved elsewhere.
I agree too. This is probably the easiest way for Linn to still maintain that important support channel.
Keep it professional and relevant, anything else is just needless chaff that they can do without, as I'll prefer them to spend their time on what they do best rather than moderating a forum.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Wolfie » 2018-09-26 09:39

I think the 3rd party modifications in the LP12 section was a brave move, given that it was assisting other folk to produce alternative turntable bits ‘n’ bobs which could have impacted on Linn’s income, although as in most other aspects of the internent most folk appeared to be at one extreme or another - most seemed either to love or to hate the stuff mentioned there, giving rise to yet more heated discussion.
It could be a slight issue that there’s no access to the development part of the forum at the moment - beta firmwares are still appearing but there is no longer a path for reporting back, although I guess there’s always the helpline in an ‘emergency’.
In recent years the folk at Linn have become much more communicative through the forum - it would be a shame to lose their input.

Just my tuppence three farthings...

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-09-26 10:01

I’d be quite happy if they dropped the Third Party section, there are other forums more suited. I don’t think it does Linn any favours and, in my opinion, attracts too many of the “my only piece of Linn is a pre-cirkus LP12 with no baseboard and I don’t understand Tunedem” variety.



‘troll

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-09-26 13:26

Wolfie wrote:I think the 3rd party modifications in the LP12 section was a brave move, given that it was assisting other folk to produce alternative turntable bits ‘n’ bobs which could have impacted on Linn’s income
They made a lot of reference to open systems a few years back, including the LP12, so I think it fitted in with that at the time. A while later, they felt 3rd party threads clogged up the LP12 section so it was good to move it off to one side.

One option is to not allow 3rd party threads, but then it comes back to moderation, which Linn would have to embrace more of.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-09-26 13:34

Moomintroll wrote:I’d be quite happy if they dropped the Third Party section, there are other forums more suited. I don’t think it does Linn any favours and, in my opinion, attracts too many of the “my only piece of Linn is a pre-cirkus LP12 with no baseboard and I don’t understand Tunedem” variety.
Me too - the forum needs simplifying anyway - It's way too busy for my liking. Like you say, many of the folks regularly contributing to the 3rd party section haven't bought a new Linn product in years, perhaps ever, so it's probably not much loss to Linn if they get the hump. Better off on pink fish or wigwam which, I assume, will also allow them to rant at one another more freely.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Spannko » 2018-09-27 00:11

Like most people, I’d also prefer a much simplified Linn forum. I’m thinking along the lines of 4 main sections:

1. Setup
2. Upgrading
3. Troubleshooting
4. Software Development

I think it would be a good idea to have a sticky, written by Linn, at the head of each section so that new Linn owners can find the information they are looking for very quickly. New ideas could then be discussed freely in the forum, and who knows, the best of them may be incorporated into the official Linn version at some point. I’m thinking that the official Linn guidelines (stickies) will reduce the need to endlessly repeat the same conversations too.

There still remains the possibility that some people will use the forum as a platform for their own agenda, but by simplifying the structure of the forum, and introducing new posting guidelines, it should be easier for the moderators to take the appropriate action.

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Music Lover » 2018-09-27 08:34

Moomintroll wrote:I’d be quite happy if they dropped the Third Party section, there are other forums more suited. I don’t think it does Linn any favours and, in my opinion, attracts too many of the “my only piece of Linn is a pre-cirkus LP12 with no baseboard and I don’t understand Tunedem” variety.
My take - censorship and elitism is bad.
Freedom of speech and respect of others views is good.
As such, a company ethos is reflected in how a forum is managed.

Besides, it's great marketing to have the LP12 discussion in the forum.
But sadly, Linn has abandoned Tune Dem many years ago, hence I'm on this forum. And here, it's mandatory to use Tune Dem evaluating equipment.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by timster » 2018-09-27 09:04

Linn hasn't abandoned Tune Dem at all. It's still very central to their SO ethos.
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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Spannko » 2018-09-27 09:53

Music Lover wrote:
Moomintroll wrote:I’d be quite happy if they dropped the Third Party section, there are other forums more suited. I don’t think it does Linn any favours and, in my opinion, attracts too many of the “my only piece of Linn is a pre-cirkus LP12 with no baseboard and I don’t understand Tunedem” variety.
My take - censorship and elitism is bad.
Freedom of speech and respect of others views is good.
As such, a company ethos is reflected in how a forum is managed.

Besides, it's great marketing to have the LP12 discussion in the forum.
But sadly, Linn has abandoned Tune Dem many years ago, hence I'm on this forum. And here, it's mandatory to use Tune Dem evaluating equipment.
I think your post really highlights the difficulty in deciding how a forum should be run.

It’s often said that freedom of speech is one marker of a healthy society. However, so is the presence of rules.

How do we decide between “freedom of speech” and “it’s mandatory to use tune dem”!

Personally, I feel the rules must come first.

And there’s also “It’s my ball, my rules. If you don’t like it you know what you can do”!

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Music Lover » 2018-09-27 16:46

timster wrote:Linn hasn't abandoned Tune Dem at all. It's still very central to their SO ethos.
Linn abandoned TD (they removed it from their home page and stoped lecturing the method) but reintroduced it on the home page a few years back.
I've visited numerous demos held by Ivor (80's and forward) and he always described and used TD. So did all Linn employees.

During recent years, demos held by Linn employees focus on technical aspects of the products - something Ivor never did. He was against technical discussions.
Some Linn reps. mention TD but it's another version, focusing on clarity.
Ivor focused on musical understanding.

Hence, that Linn products of today focus on clarity is not surprising.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Music Lover » 2018-09-27 16:59

Spannko wrote:I think your post really highlights the difficulty in deciding how a forum should be run.
Not difficult, the forum owner set the rules.
Here it is "compare equipment based on TD".
And we are discussing competitors equipment quite a lot, and it seems ok to criticise Lejonklou products.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: New Linn Forum

Post by Spannko » 2018-09-27 17:33

Music Lover wrote:
Spannko wrote:I think your post really highlights the difficulty in deciding how a forum should be run.
Not difficult, the forum owner set the rules.
Here it is "compare equipment based on TD".
And we are discussing competitors equipment quite a lot, and it seems ok to criticise Lejonklou products.
Except that you used “freedom of speech” and “it’s mandatory to use tune dem” in the same paragraph.

I’m pretty sure freedom of speech doesn’t work that way!

Personally, I would rather not allow freedom of speech. It’s highly overrated.

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