Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Matteo » 2018-09-21 18:00

too much complications

all you need is come back to the good old vinyls
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Macallan » 2018-09-21 18:04

Jumanji wrote:The calculation is currently done in the DS, not the PC (at least that is my understanding)
So if it is done in the Cloud, obvioulsy the results need to be fed into the DS, probably via Konfig, but we will see.

I was told one could still use the existing filters. Not sure whether that means the cloud results are donwloaded to Konfig and live in coexistence with the cloud filters.

I would also hope there is an Import feature to upload all the measurements from Konfig to the cloud rather than have to input it all again. And only the new data, e.g. position of Windows and carpets etc, need to be entered.
OK, got it, thanks :-) -- Although I find it a bit strange that the calculation is not simply done on the PC (thereby neither relying on the DS nor on the cloud)

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-21 18:12

Opens a new can of worms...
Versions for PC, Mac, Linux devices need to be supported then...and would be outside of Linn‘s control if it didn‘t work as your HW is to old etc.

Cloud is the way to go...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-21 18:35

Jumanji wrote:Cloud is the way to go...
if by "the cloud" we mean Linn's server (wherever that may be located, perhaps in the cloud proper), then quite a lot of S)/Exakt is already done there. If the server is doing the calculations, then Linn have total control of them, and don't need to worry about different variants of Konfig and Davaar on user machines. Also, if fixes or updates to the calculation software are required, a single update on the server is valid for all subsequent users. I'm not a massive fan of the cloud in general, but in this case I think it makes sense (so long as the server keeps running, of course!)

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-09-21 18:49

I'm going to try to answer the questions created by these announcements, although I won't quote all the questions.
Let me know if I missed anything.
Donald wrote:Thanks ThomasOK - very informative.

A couple of additional questions: -

1. The Bridged Class-D amplifier with post-filter feedback - is Class-D the future direction of travel for all Linn power amplifiers?

2. Power supply - one of the What Hi-Fi pages has a picture of a Selekt with the cover off. What's that lurking behind the IEC socket - a new power supply?? Whither Dynamik??

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/linn-selekt-dsm
1. Good question. Linn has stated that their Class-D amp design achieves "lower distortion and noise than our existing Chakra amps". I recall similar verbiage being used to describe the DVC and hence the discontinuation of Linn analog preamps. It certainly would complete the all digital, all the time path they seem to be on.

2. I would expect that the power supply is a Dynamik design. The Dynamik isn't a power supply but a group of power supplies all based on the same design but with differences depending on what it has to drive. Linn has, in the past, also done designs where the SMPS and the main board are all one piece, the Pekin is one example.
matthias wrote:Thanks Thomas,
according to Dagogo Linn demoed the Selekt vs. a Naim Uniti Star, quite an unfair comparison.
Even the better Uniti Nova is much cheaper than the Selekt.
Matt
According to What Hi-Fi Linn demoed against the Naim Uniti Nova. The owner here, who was at the US rollout, confirmed that. The Uniti Nova sells for $6995 in the US and the Selekt DSM is $5200 base and $7000 with Katalyst. I was told that the first comparison was with the base Selekt DSM vs. the Uniti so I'd say that it was more than fair.
Rudi64 wrote:Anyone knows its possible to upgrade the "old" Majik Exaktbox I to Katalyst or do you
have to buy the Akurate Exaktbox I to make that step in the future?
This hasn't been clearly stated but I would certainly hope that all Exaktbox-I units will be subject to the upgrade, it really wouldn't make sense any other way.

While on the subject of upgrades, Linn has said that the Katalyst upgrades for the KDS and ADS will remain available "at this time" and they are on the new price list. So mbabst, you can still do the Katalyst upgrades, no price change. I, too, find it somewhat surprising in the light of the move away from source pieces to streamer/preamp combos, that Linn would make the upgrade from DS to DSM unavailable - especially just before this announcement. You would think they would want to incentivize their customers to move in that direction.
timster wrote:Does anyone know when the Selekt is coming to market? With Pins being a selling point, and with hardware buttons, Davaar 64 and Kazoo will need releasing first wouldn't they?
Selekt DSM units are supposed to start shipping to dealers September 24th. So the new software versions coming on the 25th are right on time for everything to work together. Again, I don't know for sure how the distribution of the new SO software is going to be handled, I just noticed the mention of getting it from the dealer portal. It could be nothing more than giving the dealers access to it first so they have an idea as to what is going on when customers start calling. So I wouldn't read too much into that wording. Linn does view SO as a major competitive advantage for Linn and is putting much R&D into improving it. I believe the fact that new SO is coming out before new SO+ reflects Linn's desire to attract "New to Linn" customers by selling them compelling streamer/preamp (and possibly power amp) combos that work with whatever components they already have, particularly speakers. This was indicated by Linn using B&W and Wilson speakers for the demo. "We will take whatever speaker you like and make it sound better." is the takeaway I get.
Music Lover wrote:A lot of raving about the modularity in this thread.
Only me that don't like that?

With modules, a lot of connections and drop of performance.
However, I understand it make sense in an "all-in-all" product adding flexibility.
Linn did say that they spent a lot of time making sure that the connections don't mess up the sound. They also, of course, mention that it is all with digital signals so presumably lossless. YMMV.
timster wrote:
Matteo wrote:https://www.linn.co.uk/speakers-and-amp ... exaktbox-i

The Linn website still has the image of Majik Exaktbox-I
And 'No' next to Katalyst. Guess the name change comes first, the box after. Konfused?
I'm pretty sure name change and new box come at the same time - I have seen a photo of the Akurate Exaktbox-I, it's just not up on the Linn site yet. As stated before, Katalyst will come sometime in 2019.

I think that about covers it for now.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by mbabst » 2018-09-21 19:35

Thanks, nice to know that DS Katalyst Upgrade is still available. But I‘m not going to spend that much money on a product that will be discontinued.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Per A » 2018-09-21 19:46

I am irritated by the fact Linn shuts down the discussion forum but of course they’re entitled to it. A reminder perhaps of this game we are playing.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-09-21 20:40

Even a small impact on SQ is bad imho.
All these small items all add up.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-09-21 21:35

If linn wanted to go after devialet punters I'd have expected better amplification than the level they've bunged in this box. Plus that dongle knob... I can't believe it's not something you can remove and have near your listening position.
Surely there's some klimax beating amp tech incoming?
Source first? Maybe less so now they're releasing a compromised box.
I'm thinking that the traditional audiophile is no longer their main focus, which is a great shame as its those folks who've helped put them where they are.
Its going to be an interesting few months that's for sure.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-21 22:46

Ozzzy189 wrote:If linn wanted to go after devialet punters I'd have expected better amplification than the level they've bunged in this box.
In what sense better? I don't think we can judge until we've heard it, in comparison with products we already know (including, of course Lejonklou amps).
Ozzzy189 wrote:Plus that dongle knob... I can't believe it's not something you can remove and have near your listening position.
According to Thomas, there's a new remote in the works. Whether and to what extent it will mimic the fancy knob is not, I think, yet known. There are advantages of course in having the main control firmly attached to the device, the main one being that you can't mislay it.
Ozzzy189 wrote:Surely there's some klimax beating amp tech incoming?


Who knows? But given Thomas' information in his most recent post, there has to be the possibility that the days of Chakra are now numbered. Linn said as long ago as 2003 that the combination of Class D and Dynamik power supplies was a potentially attractive prospect, but that they thought it would be a decade or more before that combination offered the degree of sound quality improvement that justified replacing the (then and now) current technology. Fifteen years on we might now be arriving at that point.
Ozzzy189 wrote:Source first? Maybe less so now they're releasing a compromised box.
In what way compromised? Selekt is explicitly not top of the range. There is the special case of the KDS vs the KDSM to which Thomas has drawn attention; however, that isn't a new release but a case of retiring a product which, one has to assume, is no longer selling particularly well. The underlying logic of "source first" remains as valid as ever; the problem is often in defining what we mean by "source". That is particularly true when you run an LP12 into an Exakt system, as I do. I don't think that any of the Selekt products represent any sort of compromise of the "source first" approach.
Ozzzy189 wrote:I'm thinking that the traditional audiophile is no longer their main focus, which is a great shame as its those folks who've helped put them where they are.
Some years ago, Gilad spoke (I believe at a dealer event) of the two 'wings' of Linn's customer base - the "enthusiast" market and the "high end music system" market; there is of course a substantial amount of overlap between them. The enthusiast/audiophile market has had quite a lot of attention recently, with Akurate level Katalyst, the Lingo 4 and the Urika II, and Linn has not introduced a new product for the broader market since the launch of the 5 Series speakers; arguably something like Selekt was well overdue. I see no sign that Linn are abandoning their audiophile customers.
Ozzzy189 wrote:Its going to be an interesting few months that's for sure.
I do agree with you on that.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by lejonklou » 2018-09-21 23:01

Posts have been deleted.

I urge all new members to read the forum rules, and read them carefully.

Two things are really important on this forum: The evaluation method and the attitude.

The evaluation method is the Tune Method. This is performed by listening to music and comparing the tunefulness of equipment. It’s not done by arguing with electrical/acoustical/mechanical scientific facts or measurements (all of which are essential as tools, but they're not an evaluation of musical performance). Those who are not willing to perform, participate, respect and/or pay interest in other member’s practical comparative listening tests should find themselves another forum on the internet.

The attitude in here is one of respect and contribution. The purpose of this forum is to improve our knowledge of how to maximise the joy we get from the reproduction of recorded music in our homes. There is a wealth of knowledge buried in our discussions here and I want it to be accessible and readworthy not only for us, today, but also for others, years from now.

Therefore we don’t waste eachother’s time by endless chatting and joking (the occasional joke is of course welcome and some members are known for their wit) and we don’t question other people’s findings without the intention of practically evaluating them ourselves. We applaude other members efforts, offer constructive feedback and look for ways forward.

There are plenty of other forums where the attitudes of time wasting and critisizing are the norm. If that is what you enjoy and your favourite place is currently unavailable, this forum not the place you should go.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-09-21 23:36

Firstly, who wants a control rooted to the box? That's insane. Imagine a TV where the main control is on the TV chassis and not on your lap? This isn't much different in that respect.
I said the source was compromised because its pretty well known that a ds is a better source than a dsm. Those are being discontinued, so in that respect these aren't as good as the sources being phased out.
If the amplification is between majik and akurate then again that leaves me cold seeing as neither impresses me.
Listen, I'm not doing it down, I've not heard it, but these things are usually compromised to get pretty much everything into one box. They say that they haven't compromised the SQ, yet that just can't be true. How can it NOT be when there's all that extra gubbins inside?
I get it, it's not aimed at me, or most of the people posting here imo. I aren't quite sure who it's aimed at tbh. I do kind of like the xboxy look of it but I just find it hard to get excited about it and find it all very anti-climatic.
As the dragons might say, "I'm out".
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-22 05:47

BB1 wrote:
Don’t be too excited about Pins. I’m on Davaar and iOS Kazoo beta, hence it’s already available to me. In its current implementation you’re only able to set Pins for content on Qobuz/Tidal, radio stations and physical DSM inputs. But right now it isn’t possible to

- assign a pin to anything located on your local server
- assign a pin to any of „My playlists“

which limits its usefulness in my use case.
I only want to use it for something very specific to my use, purely to switch input in an Alexa routine given an event, but the point is - Pins are being used as a USP for the Selekt from what I have seen in the reviews anyway - the computer audiophile in particular:
P.S. I also call this feature the guilty pleasure preview. I love Taylor Swift's 1989 album and listen to it frequently. When the Selekt DSM arrives for review, I just might pin this album to one of the buttons. On a normal system this would set me up for a tremendous ribbing from my friends should I accidentally select this button rather than the Muscular Manly playlist during a party. On the Selekt DSM this little preview feature could save the day and save me from the obligatory, "it's my daughters preset" lie.
So they'd better get it working by the 25th :)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-22 08:13

Selekt is not of interest to me but I do hope that it will be a success for Linn.

I hope them to stay in business for many years to come so that I get updates and support. And as they are already around for quite some time, they must have made a lot of things right so far.

I'm much more interested in the new SO and what improvements it will bring.


J.

Still it was stupid and annoying to shut down the forum for this 'World Premiere' :-(

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by maffe » 2018-09-22 09:50

I’m looking forward to a demo of this thingy and hear how it actually plays and ignore the form factor and spec sheet.
Design is a mather of taste and hard to argue about. What I do know is that not everyone have the space for mono everything boxes when living in a small apartment and not alone. Height WAF might be a heavy argument ;)
So comparing with 2 Sagatuns, 2 Tundras, Slipsik, LP12+Radikal and maybe a DS ain’t a fair comparison since they aim at a different crowd in my view.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music at Home » 2018-09-22 10:24

ThomasOK, did Linn make any commitment to include the DS range in future firmware releases, or will that come to an end as well now?

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-09-22 11:00

timster wrote:
BB1 wrote:
Don’t be too excited about Pins. I’m on Davaar and iOS Kazoo beta, hence it’s already available to me. In its current implementation you’re only able to set Pins for content on Qobuz/Tidal, radio stations and physical DSM inputs. But right now it isn’t possible to

- assign a pin to anything located on your local server
- assign a pin to any of „My playlists“

which limits its usefulness in my use case.
I only want to use it for something very specific to my use, purely to switch input in an Alexa routine given an event, but the point is - Pins are being used as a USP for the Selekt from what I have seen in the reviews anyway - the computer audiophile in particular:
I am using the 64 Beta Davaar on a DS and DSM with Pins and Alexa. So Pins aren’t Selekt specific.

Currently Pins allow radio station and input selection. You can also Pin an album or song IF you are using Kazoo server. There was a post on the Linn forum by Barry that said UPNP servers would follow soon. I cannot recall what was said about playlists. I think this will only come when you can save playlists to the cloud.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-22 11:41

Thank you Peter, I recall what was said about UPnP servers and pins 'coming soon'. My point is, it seems pins were developed for Selekt (as it is a hardware feature with the buttons and as I said, a USP). So stands to reason the feature should work out of the box by the time Selekts come to market. If it's still not compliant with UPnP, and especially if it's still in beta, then they are releasing it too early. Not unlike when Saab wax sold to a Spyker, who rushed the 9-5 to market before it was ready.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-22 11:55

Ozzzy189 wrote:Firstly, who wants a control rooted to the box? That's insane. Imagine a TV where the main control is on the TV chassis and not on your lap? This isn't much different in that respect.
Well I do, actually. I miss the buttons I had on my Akurate DSM now that I have a Klimax Exakt DSM (sorry Klimax Exakt Hub). Of course I want the remote as well, and the control point too. If you are using a record deck (and Selekt has a phono stage), controls on the DSM are particularly useful.
Ozzzy189 wrote:I said the source was compromised because its pretty well known that a ds is a better source than a dsm. Those are being discontinued, so in that respect these aren't as good as the sources being phased out.
Although I see them as part of the same technological/manufacturing trend, the introduction of Selekt is separate from the discontinuation of the DS products. The latter is surely a case of a product line having run its course in the market place; if the DS line were still profitable, Linn would presumably be keeping it in the catalogue. And of course any "compromise" is not a once for all thing; I haven't heard the comparison myself, but I'd be very surprised if a pre-Katalyst KDS sounds better than a Katalyst KDSM. Future product improvement could well make today's compromise irrelevant.
Ozzzy189 wrote:If the amplification is between majik and akurate then again that leaves me cold seeing as neither impresses me. Listen, I'm not doing it down, I've not heard it, but these things are usually compromised to get pretty much everything into one box. They say that they haven't compromised the SQ, yet that just can't be true. How can it NOT be when there's all that extra gubbins inside?
In principle, I'd have to agree. In practice, anyone who has seen some of the more recent Linn boards will have been impressed at how much component density for the same functionality has been reduced. I am sure that this represents a significant part of the performance improvement we have seen with Katalyst. I shall be very interested to see what the component density is like in the Selekt range.

Until we hear it, the amplification is very much an unknown quantity. Context is also important. I am clear from listening tests in which I have participated (both Tune Dem and longer period listening) that active and passive speaker setups make very different demands on amplifiers. So it is too soon to form any kind of view on Linn's latest foray into Class D.
Ozzzy189 wrote:I get it, it's not aimed at me, or most of the people posting here imo. I aren't quite sure who it's aimed at tbh. I do kind of like the xboxy look of it but I just find it hard to get excited about it and find it all very anti-climatic
From the point of view of the enthusiast, I think Jumanji has it exactly right. We want Linn to have a product line that keeps them in business. As to whom the Selekt produkt line is aimed at, if you can manage a visit to any one of the dealers listed in the "Book a demo" link on the Linn website, they will explain it to you. For myself, I meet quite a lot of people interested in good quality music reproduction in the home, but only a minority of them are interested in Hi-Fi as such. The remainder tend to give more weight than I would to visual design, box count and ease of use against best available sound quality. If (big if) Selekt performs as well for the generally fussy members of this forum as well as the initial reviews make out, it will not represent any kind of sound quality compromise in the wider market, but that market will expect nothing less at the price.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-09-22 12:22

DavidHB wrote:
We want Linn to have a product line that keeps them in business.

David
Absolutely. A small but very significant point which, I feel, can often escape some of the naysayers.

‘troll

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-09-22 13:28

Moomintroll wrote:
DavidHB wrote:
We want Linn to have a product line that keeps them in business.

David
Absolutely. A small but very significant point which, I feel, can often escape some of the naysayers.

‘troll
+1
Whilst it's not for me, I still want them to make LP12s.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Dobie » 2018-09-22 14:43

Moomintroll wrote:
New 350 firmware appeared in beta yesterday, but there was no explanation of what it did in the release notes, so I haven’t applied it.

‘troll
Go on, you know you want to! ;-). See PM.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-09-22 14:47

DavidHB wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:I said the source was compromised because its pretty well known that a ds is a better source than a dsm. Those are being discontinued, so in that respect these aren't as good as the sources being phased out.
Although I see them as part of the same technological/manufacturing trend, the introduction of Selekt is separate from the discontinuation of the DS products. The latter is surely a case of a product line having run its course in the market place; if the DS line were still profitable, Linn would presumably be keeping it in the catalogue. And of course any "compromise" is not a once for all thing; I haven't heard the comparison myself, but I'd be very surprised if a pre-Katalyst KDS sounds better than a Katalyst KDSM. Future product improvement could well make today's compromise irrelevant.
Not at all irrelevant.
How good would a no compromised KDS be?
THAT is the real question.

When Linn introduced Exakt and Space, with it's marketing spinn about technical stuff and message "you can position the speakers where you like and then compensate with DSP") they lost me.
Previously Linn was dedicated to ultimate performance, tweaking in absurdum. Loved that commitment.
Now it seems that Linn is just another high end company.

I still like them to prosper but for me - performance is the only important item.
Thanks god we have Lejonklou and JBL.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-09-22 15:39

Music Lover wrote:
DavidHB wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:I said the source was compromised because its pretty well known that a ds is a better source than a dsm. Those are being discontinued, so in that respect these aren't as good as the sources being phased out.
Although I see them as part of the same technological/manufacturing trend, the introduction of Selekt is separate from the discontinuation of the DS products. The latter is surely a case of a product line having run its course in the market place; if the DS line were still profitable, Linn would presumably be keeping it in the catalogue. And of course any "compromise" is not a once for all thing; I haven't heard the comparison myself, but I'd be very surprised if a pre-Katalyst KDS sounds better than a Katalyst KDSM. Future product improvement could well make today's compromise irrelevant.
Not at all irrelevant.
How good would a no compromised KDS be?
THAT is the real question.

When Linn introduced Exakt and Space, with it's marketing spinn about technical stuff and message "you can position the speakers where you like and then compensate with DSP") they lost me.
Previously Linn was dedicated to ultimate performance, tweaking in absurdum. Loved that commitment.
Now it seems that Linn is just another high end company.

I still like them to prosper but for me - performance is the only important item.
Thanks god we have Lejonklou and JBL.
I think this a feeling shared by many. I find it a significant change in direction for Linn to stop making their most musical digital source component in favor of one that offers more features and flexibility but less music. This is not something we expect from Linn (although the KK discontinuation might be considered a presage). I don't have a problem with the Selekt and look froward to having one in the store, as it presents a product that I believe there is a market for and is somewhat of an upscale, modern Classik Music, a product we bemoaned the loss of. For those wanting fewer compromises there is the Akurate range, although admittedly for more money. But giving up performance for convenience at the top of the range does not sit well.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-09-22 15:52

Music at Home wrote:ThomasOK, did Linn make any commitment to include the DS range in future firmware releases, or will that come to an end as well now?
Linn specifically stated that the new Space Optimisation would work with all DS units, including the earliest versions. I'm pretty sure that there are relatively small differences in software from one Klimax DS/DSM to the next so it shouldn't cost much in the way of additional resources to cover all models. Linn has also said that pins would work with all DS/DSMs, the only advantages the Selekt DSM has here are the six buttons on the unit and the replication of them on the coming remote. (Although there is no reason to believe that you couldn't use the Selekt remote with other Linn units.) Linn has continued to support every DS and DSM product they have made with every software release and I don't see any reason this would change.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

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