Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by matthias » 2018-10-07 14:23

lejonklou wrote: "Leave it off for two weeks. Ignore the problems of your room, your brain will take care of them. Just focus on enjoying the music."
IMO, best way is to prepare the room with natural materials like wooden floors, wool carpets, sofas and furnitures. Then as Fredrik says let the brain take care. The brain does a much better job than any SO algorithms. Enjoy:-)

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-07 15:04

timster wrote:We can all agree that preserving the original is the intention, because reproduction is never perfect. But that's not preserving it is it? So you say "preserving the musical signal" is key, then which signal? That created in the recording studio? By each instrument? How it was recorded - or what comes out of the mixing desk - are they the original signal or a manipulation too? Or is the musical signal just whatever the source happens to be?

In any event, whether you are manipulating "the signal" in the digital domain with SO before the analogue reproduction, or in the analogue domain with room treatments afterwards, you are manipulating something. Whether doing it in the digital domain is less destructive to the original recording, and more precise and targeted, than room treatments is open to question. Or is it. Do you get room treatments for a specific frequency, bandwidth and that can be honed to a particular absorption level? Or is it more... blunderbuss and sledgehammer?
Rather strange questions.You have the recording and that you can’t change. You can only make sure it’s reproduced in the best way.

And if you compare different compensation methods, it’s not ”open to question”
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-07 16:35

matthias wrote:
lejonklou wrote: "Leave it off for two weeks. Ignore the problems of your room, your brain will take care of them. Just focus on enjoying the music."
IMO, best way is to prepare the room with natural materials like wooden floors, wool carpets, sofas and furnitures. Then as Fredrik says let the brain take care. The brain does a much better job than any SO algorithms. Enjoy:-)

Matt
I have a heavy wool carpet and very thick underlay over a fibreboard floor, two sofas and other furniture so it's not as if it's an empty room. If I leave SO off I'm left with a buzzing/ringing in my ears for hours afterwards, that can't be healthy.
On turning SO off a week ago (after the post you quoted, I though I'd try it: when in Rome...), it quickly became painful to listen to, so I applied a minor correction in SO to just take the edge off the worst offending room mode. That was actually quite listenable and enjoyable, if a bit thumpy and overblown. In short, it sounded 'impressive' for want of a better word.
I believe that yes, your brain would compensate in the long run - but it's having to work to do that, when it could be relaxing and enjoying the music.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-10-07 16:42

To be fair to Fredrik and others who aren't SO fans, they live with THEIR systems in THEIR rooms. Perhaps if they had YOUR electronics and YOUR room then perhaps things MIGHT be a little different.
Sorry for emphasising using caps but I have no idea how to italic on this set up.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-07 17:23

Ozzzy189 wrote:To be fair to Fredrik and others who aren't SO fans, they live with THEIR systems in THEIR rooms. Perhaps if they had YOUR electronics and YOUR room then perhaps things MIGHT be a little different.
Sorry for emphasising using caps but I have no idea how to italic on this set up.
Yep, that's it, bang-on! Everyone and their environments are different, you can't say "this is the only way", everything (especially room treatments) is a compromise. Different people have different preferences and the best compromise for one is not necessarily the best compromise for someone else.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by matthias » 2018-10-07 18:14

phino wrote: Yep, that's it, bang-on! Everyone and their environments are different, you can't say "this is the only way", everything (especially room treatments) is a compromise. Different people have different preferences and the best compromise for one is not necessarily the best compromise for someone else.
Maybe that is the reason that I can not see leading this SO discussion to something meaningful.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-07 18:15

phino wrote:
Jumanji wrote:Well,
once you know the filters you could at least tweak an existing V1 profile by adding custom filters and adjusting filters within the given boundaries.

What I find surprising is the shape of the new filters. Less cut but much broader. Sound is impacted across a wider area of frequencies. No longer just a limited, precise cut at specific frequencies. Seems to be a very different thinking behind it.
I would have expected the opposite actually...

J.
Well that example is for my room, which is quite small. The 'preference' slider is near the left hand end by default, I believe if you have a bigger room the slider will default more towards the right, which I think will produce deeper and narrower cuts.
I suspect that on the whole though the preference now will be for generally shallower and wider.
Well, I got that the wrong way around! The further right you go with the preference slider, the less filtering you get. I did an optimisation with it all the way to the right, it produced only two filters, of slghtly wider bandwidth than we're used to seeing, but of only around -4dB. Interestingly, neither of these small filters were aimed at what we'd traditionally think of as the main mode (ie lowest frequency, deepest cut). Both were in the 50-60Hz range.

So, it seems there's a LOT of scope with the preference slider to add back in the bass energy that you might feel you're missing.

I just hope this doesn't go the same was as Exakt Sub support and gets quietly left in the state it's in now (ie restricted to two speaker passive without a sub).

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by lejonklou » 2018-10-07 18:39

Back in the day when I got into Linn - the late 80's - source first and mad attention to detail was the secret behind every great product and every great sounding system. The guys who obsessed about the room, absorption panels and bass traps, often self-identified as Audiophiles, were frowned upon.

I'm really thankful that Linn in those days constantly downplayed the importance of the room, at every course, event and demo. Otherwise I wouldn't have become a fan and learned so much, I wouldn't later have started my own company and I wouldn't today have the best job on the planet.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-07 19:27

Music Lover wrote:
timster wrote:We can all agree that preserving the original is the intention, because reproduction is never perfect. But that's not preserving it is it? So you say "preserving the musical signal" is key, then which signal? That created in the recording studio? By each instrument? How it was recorded - or what comes out of the mixing desk - are they the original signal or a manipulation too? Or is the musical signal just whatever the source happens to be?

In any event, whether you are manipulating "the signal" in the digital domain with SO before the analogue reproduction, or in the analogue domain with room treatments afterwards, you are manipulating something. Whether doing it in the digital domain is less destructive to the original recording, and more precise and targeted, than room treatments is open to question. Or is it. Do you get room treatments for a specific frequency, bandwidth and that can be honed to a particular absorption level? Or is it more... blunderbuss and sledgehammer?
Rather strange questions.You have the recording and that you can’t change. You can only make sure it’s reproduced in the best way.

And if you compare different compensation methods, it’s not ”open to question”
So why is SO not at least part of the answer?

Comparing something means it must be open to question. If the question is answered by solution A, then comparing it to solution B would be pointless. Which seems to be where you are, and fair enough, enery9ne has their own opinions,tastes and environments. The argument you use to explain why your method is valid while SO isn't simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by lejonklou » 2018-10-07 20:21

timster wrote:
Music Lover wrote:
timster wrote:We can all agree that preserving the original is the intention, because reproduction is never perfect. But that's not preserving it is it? So you say "preserving the musical signal" is key, then which signal? That created in the recording studio? By each instrument? How it was recorded - or what comes out of the mixing desk - are they the original signal or a manipulation too? Or is the musical signal just whatever the source happens to be?

In any event, whether you are manipulating "the signal" in the digital domain with SO before the analogue reproduction, or in the analogue domain with room treatments afterwards, you are manipulating something. Whether doing it in the digital domain is less destructive to the original recording, and more precise and targeted, than room treatments is open to question. Or is it. Do you get room treatments for a specific frequency, bandwidth and that can be honed to a particular absorption level? Or is it more... blunderbuss and sledgehammer?
Rather strange questions.You have the recording and that you can’t change. You can only make sure it’s reproduced in the best way.

And if you compare different compensation methods, it’s not ”open to question”
So why is SO not at least part of the answer?

Comparing something means it must be open to question. If the question is answered by solution A, then comparing it to solution B would be pointless. Which seems to be where you are, and fair enough, enery9ne has their own opinions,tastes and environments. The argument you use to explain why your method is valid while SO isn't simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
The problem is that manipulation of the digital audio stream is detrimental to its musical qualities.

When it comes to sound qualities like purity (low distortion), dynamics, noise and perceived detail, digital signals are less sensitive than analogue signals.

But when it comes to core musical qualities, how the music appears to flow effortlessly and emotionally reach out and grab you, digital signals are much more sensitive than analogue signals.

Playing a vinyl record is a perfect example of how core musical qualities mysteriously survive a rather brutal analogue degradation.

Lowering the volume 40 dB with any digital volume control is a perfect example of how a theoretically near perfect digital recalculation of the signal completely robs the music of its emotion.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-07 22:37

lejonklou wrote: The problem is that manipulation of the digital audio stream is detrimental to its musical qualities.

When it comes to sound qualities like purity (low distortion), dynamics, noise and perceived detail, digital signals are less sensitive than analogue signals.

But when it comes to core musical qualities, how the music appears to flow effortlessly and emotionally reach out and grab you, digital signals are much more sensitive than analogue signals.

Playing a vinyl record is a perfect example of how core musical qualities mysteriously survive a rather brutal analogue degradation.

Lowering the volume 40 dB with any digital volume control is a perfect example of how a theoretically near perfect digital recalculation of the signal completely robs the music of its emotion.
Equally, for those who propose room treatment as the answer, it too can rob the musical message. Those who have heard anything in the 2 dem rooms at the Linn factory will know what I mean. They kill all the life out of the music by having too much absorption.

I agree that SO can be a bad thing, particularly when its done badly.

I find it difficult when there are such absolutist views - either solution done well can help. Either solution done badly can screw things up.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-08 08:56

As sunbeam said.
We can only speak from experience. Before SO arrived my (admittedly very different from now) system was good. I did add room treatments of a sort (if you can count rugs on the wooden floor and throw over the back of leather sofa) and it improved. But once SO arrived, even in it's initial "raw" version with no tweaks, it was markedly more musical (wider soundstage, more engaging mids, less muddy bass). Since then it has continued to improve, both the algorithms and tweaks, and I am looking forward to the new SO+ to hear its effect, with an open mind and ear.
So what if SO v1.0 needed tweaking? It makes it even more engaging. I'm sure there is no real practical difference in those tweaks than playing with panels' construction, number, placement and size.
And there are still tweaks in SO v2.0 with the sliders. That doesn't mean it's bad, only that it can be done badly, but probably not as badly as with the to some over-cutomisable v1.0 (and that may be why they are moving away from that).
At the end of the day, SO and SO+ in my case has made "the music appear to flow effortlessly and emotionally reach out and grab <me>". I don't really care if, theoretically, digital processing has the potential to rob the music of it's emotion. My experience has been exactly the opposite. If it sounds better, it is better. ;)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by lejonklou » 2018-10-08 09:44

timster wrote:it was markedly more musical (wider soundstage, more engaging mids, less muddy bass)
This is what I suspect is at the core of our disagreements: We listen for different things.

Yes, a digital equalizer can make the soundstage appear wider, but this has nothing, zero, zilch to do with musicality. I would even say that each time one thinks "Wow, what a wide soundstage!", it's a sign that the system is performing musically worse.

The same applies to 'less muddy bass'. Again, this is not my objective. While a digital equalizer can make bass appear less muddy, I have so far not heard one that improves its musical qualities. Muddy bass can be more musical than a clean and sharp one - the qualities are different.

This is probably the most common trap that I fall into when developing products or tuning systems: Being seduced by the reproduction sounding more clear. Less muddy. The immediate reaction is that it's better, but is it really? I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by beck » 2018-10-08 09:59

+1

This is why this forum is completely different to other hifi forums. Like it or not this is why we in the end believe more in listening to clips and discuss than taking verbal advise for granted.

This is the Lejonklou forum!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-08 11:15

lejonklou wrote: I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.
I would add that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, there's no reason why there can't be both.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-08 12:06

timster wrote: If it sounds better, it is better. ;)
That is a quite misleading slogan, as it makes the customers listen for totally wrong qualities.
It has to be put in a context, to be understood.

Musicality is NOT about sound, clarity or "hearing the different instruments better".
It's all about musical understanding.

The "tun dem" method described on the Linn home page is different from the method Ivor described and lectured about.
Based on that text, it's easy to focus on wrong aspects in the evaluation.
Tune Dem should be learned live.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by cortina » 2018-10-08 12:06

sunbeamgls wrote:I would add that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, there's no reason why there can't be both.
Perhaps not but the key factor is that if you optimize your system based on clear sound, a 3D soundstage etc. you will over time not end up with the most musical system (tune-dem-wise).
Last edited by cortina on 2018-10-08 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-08 12:12

sunbeamgls wrote:
lejonklou wrote: I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.
I would add that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, there's no reason why there can't be both.
Even if you are basically correct, that is not the point.

The point is...if the reproduction is musical - you don't care a BIT of the sound.
So if you start thinking "wow this sound great" - that is an indication something is not correct.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-08 12:18

cortina wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:I would add that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, there's no reason why there can't be both.
Perhaps not but the key factor is that if you optimize your system based on clear sound, a 3D soundstage etc. you will over time not end up with the most musical system (tune-dem-wise).
Strangely (or not), if you do the opposite = optimise ONLY with Tune-Dem, you also end up with a great sounding system. (clear sound, a 3D soundstage etc)
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-10-08 12:27

Can somebody tell me, in the context of this forum, what is meant by musical understanding?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-08 12:34

Music Lover wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:
lejonklou wrote: I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.
I would add that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, there's no reason why there can't be both.
Even if you are basically correct, that is not the point.

The point is...if the reproduction is musical - you don't care a BIT of the sound.
So if you start thinking "wow this sound great" - that is an indication something is not correct.
I disagree, there is no reason at all why you can't think "this is a fantastic musical experience" AND "this system does x y and z so well". There is nothing wrong with that at all. As long as the first of these is the most important, and, as Cortina suggests, there's a good chance that a musical system does the other stuff well too.

I'm not sure, but there seems to be some who think that a musical system has to be unpleasant and ineffective in other ways, but I don't understand the need for this kind of thinking.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by anachronid » 2018-10-08 12:39

lejonklou wrote:
timster wrote:it was markedly more musical (wider soundstage, more engaging mids, less muddy bass)
I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.
In fairness to Timster, I don’t think he’s saying his system is more musical because of the wider soundstage/bass clarity he experiences with SO. He’s not equating "musicality" with these characteristics.

If you have the option of using SO, it’s easy to compare different settings, or to turn SO off completely. If it sounds better to you (more musical, emotionally engaging, enjoyable) in your system and listening environment, it is better :)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-08 12:45

We seem to have come down to semantics.
What one calls "musical" seems to have a different definition for another, so we're possibly talking cross purposes. If you're talking about "musical understanding" as an abstraction from the experience of listening, in the same way artistic understanding is taking meaning and context from outside of the purely sensory experience of what you see, then fair enough. But that's not the same thing as "enjoying the music", or how a painting is lit is it?
Not that they are mutually exclusive of course.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-08 12:47

anachronid wrote:
lejonklou wrote:
timster wrote:it was markedly more musical (wider soundstage, more engaging mids, less muddy bass)
I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.
In fairness to Timster, I don’t think he’s saying his system is more musical because of the wider soundstage/bass clarity he experiences with SO. He’s not equating "musicality" with these characteristics.

If you have the option of using SO, it’s easy to compare different settings, or to turn SO off completely. If it sounds better to you (more musical, emotionally engaging, enjoyable) in your system and listening environment, it is better :)
That's pretty much it. In a nutshell. Thanks.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-08 13:16

Music Lover wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:
lejonklou wrote: I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.
I would add that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, there's no reason why there can't be both.
Even if you are basically correct, that is not the point.

The point is...if the reproduction is musical - you don't care a BIT of the sound.
So if you start thinking "wow this sound great" - that is an indication something is not correct.
No, it doesn't mean something is not correct. There is nothing wrong with a system that can be enjoyed from either perspective. There is only a problem when it can only be enjoyed from the "wow this sounds great" perspective.
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