Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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timster
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-28 08:47

Actually 4.35 it's still available:
http://oss.linn.co.uk/Releases/Konfig/Davaar/

Worth a try (just for fun!)?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-09-28 08:47

timster wrote:@John R B: the Save option in SO is related only to the current Konfig profile it is showing. It seems SO v2 is entirely invisible to Konfig. I don't know how they managed it, but apparently it somehow greys out the "Create from system" option when the system has a v2 optimisation applied. That may have been a change sneaked in to the latest Konfig update to 4.36. Does anyone still have 4.35? it may work with that one....
I tried that, went back 3 releases and all the same - greyed out
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-28 09:01

Darn. Don't you hate it when they've thought of everything? ;)
That must have known it was coming years ago.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-09-28 09:34

Does anyone else have this problem? -
Getting back in to My Account. Then go to Music systems.
Then it says it is off line.
It seems the only way to get it on line is to go into Kazoo, settings and Linn Labs
Then type in my password and e mail address (Mac Safari will not remember it)
Then try several times.
A bit feeble.
Is it just in sunny downtown York that this is happening?

Donuk

Thank you to Frederik for allowing this discussion. Sad that the Linn forum is down. What is the Swedish for Schadenfreude?
Donuk

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-28 09:58

Peter@57m wrote:
timster wrote:@John R B: the Save option in SO is related only to the current Konfig profile it is showing. It seems SO v2 is entirely invisible to Konfig. I don't know how they managed it, but apparently it somehow greys out the "Create from system" option when the system has a v2 optimisation applied. That may have been a change sneaked in to the latest Konfig update to 4.36. Does anyone still have 4.35? it may work with that one....
I tried that, went back 3 releases and all the same - greyed out
The first line in the Konfig SO XML:
<OptimisationSetting version="1.0">

So there you go. Only works with version 1.0.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Tendaberry » 2018-09-28 10:09

donuk wrote:Thank you to Frederik for allowing this discussion. Sad that the Linn forum is down. What is the Swedish for Schadenfreude?
Skadeglädje :-)

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by cortina » 2018-09-28 10:20

Macallan wrote:
I have the feeling that Linn have moved away from open, transparent and accessible engineering approach (which I thought is the philosophy of Linn) to a more superficial and closed one. Not good.

I still have the hope that it will be possible to work with the new filters in Konfig some day.
Is it just me who thinks that now that Linn has moved SO to the cloud, it is just a matter of time before they will make it into a monthly/annual subscription?

As people are paying for Spotify premium, Tidal etc, surely Gilad is dreaming of something similar. At least when the rate of improvements goes down and it becomes harder to convince customers to buy into all steps (and now even leaving DS owners out of the upgrade loop).
As upgrade revenues are decreasing, the temptation or even need for regular subscription income goes up.
Not that they would admit such plans, but neither did Adobe regarding Lightroom which were claimed to always be a stand-alone license. Until it wasn’t..

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by AsianWong » 2018-09-28 10:41

cortina wrote:Is it just me who thinks that now that Linn has moved SO to the cloud, it is just a matter of time before they will make it into a monthly/annual subscription?
Why would they? It's not going to be a steady revenue stream.
Once owners have setup their systems it's not like they'll go back and use SO frequently.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by cortina » 2018-09-28 10:51

I guess that could be solved in the software that an ok from ”the cloud” is needed for the SO to be applied. Perhaps a basic version for free and an advanced (with extra functionality/features) which requires a subscription.

I think it may be a bit naive to except software functions to be for free once they add enough added value.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Macallan » 2018-09-28 11:26

Have tried the new SO this moring and must say it doesn't sound bad. It took a bit too much bass out of the system for my liking, I preferred my manually tweaked SOv1 Konfig profile. Though it is well possible that the bass was more detailed with SOv2.

Disclaimer: This is my simple Kitchen system MDSi/Katans which is placed on top of a high cabinet, so not ideal for assessing ultimate musical detail.

The kitchen has a large sliding door towards the living room, which is usually open. In SO I modelled this as a wooden door but this assumes that the door is closed... this must make a big difference (in this case a mismatch) in the resulting filters.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by John R B » 2018-09-28 12:42

Macallan wrote:Have tried the new SO this moring and must say it doesn't sound bad. It took a bit too much bass out of the system for my liking, I preferred my manually tweaked SOv1 Konfig profile. Though it is well possible that the bass was more detailed with SOv2.
Similar initial experience here (MDSM + M140s placed asymmetrically in an irregular room). Based on a very quick try-out, the Optimisation Preference slider seems to be quite powerful. A modest slide to the right put quite a lot of bass back in for me.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by teatime » 2018-09-28 13:20

It appears I get "calculation failed" no matter what I do. I even tested setting up a new room. Accepted everything as default, room dimensions, placement, materials, everything.

Calculation failed. Instantly.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-28 13:22

cortina wrote:I guess that could be solved in the software that an ok from ”the cloud” is needed for the SO to be applied. Perhaps a basic version for free and an advanced (with extra functionality/features) which requires a subscription.

I think it may be a bit naive to except software functions to be for free once they add enough added value.
That wouldn't fly. SO is intended to be applied just once per system (after preferences have been sorted and TuneDem'd of course). Although there could be a case for Winter and Summer settings with the new environmental parameters. But to have to pay to switch would put a lot of backs up.
There's no case for a subscription to do it more than that.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-28 14:04

If you really wanted you could implement a Pay model, e.g. V1 for free, V2 access only via subscription.
Or phase out Konfig and replace with a web only model or or or...
Nevertheless i doubt this is the idea, customers would perceive it as the rip off it is and Linn would soon feel the consequences.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by cortina » 2018-09-28 14:12

That’s what everybody said about Lightroom too but when upgrades got fewer or less significant, they went ahead anyway.
I admit it is not exactly the same as Adobe is software only, but Linn is apparantely investing more and more into the software (and that software I guess is mainly tested/appreciated and valued in the home i.e. after commitment to buy ). Good if it will remain for free but we’ll see.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music at Home » 2018-09-28 16:05

timster wrote: That wouldn't fly. SO is intended to be applied just once per system (after preferences have been sorted and TuneDem'd of course)
It wouldn't be impossible to incorporate a subscription mechanism. SO on your device could just ensure that no more than 30 days go by without being able to validate its subscription within the cloud service. If the time limit is exceeded, SO disables itself and you're back to running without it until the subscription is renewed or access to the internet enabled so it can validate.

However, I would be extremely surprised though if Linn have moved SO calculations to the cloud because they're intending to implement anything like a subscription or tiered service.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-28 16:09

Music at Home wrote:
timster wrote: That wouldn't fly. SO is intended to be applied just once per system (after preferences have been sorted and TuneDem'd of course)
It wouldn't be impossible to incorporate a subscription mechanism. SO on your device could just ensure that no more than 30 days go by without being able to validate its subscription within the cloud service. If the time limit is exceeded, SO disables itself and you're back to running without it until the subscription is renewed or access to the internet enabled so it can validate.

However, I would be extremely surprised though if Linn have moved SO calculations to the cloud because they're intending to implement anything like a subscription or tiered service.
Nothing's Impossible. But some things are Pointless. It would be the latter. And it would be extremely Sneaky. I am willing to bet my house they won't do it. It would be a PR disaster if nothing else.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-09-28 16:15

Again thanking Mr L for letting this continue.

Whatever the future, we would be wise to keep copies of recent Konfig and Firmwares.
These might be necessary presumably if anyone wants to run a streamer without an internet connection.
And if charges appear, we an at least fall back on these.
The good thing about the recent account system is that it is now possible to change Space settings within a browser. I have two or three old ones which I change for listening to screeching old 60s pop tracks.
I much regret that we appear to be unable to make graphical changes.
Has anyone found a key to what all the additional adjustments like the effect of temperature, ceiling, walls &c have?
Yes, tone controls, but necessary for the emotion of the music to reach me....

Donuk sunny downtown York
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by HansW » 2018-09-28 16:24

I find this an interesting launch from Linn.
In a way this new direction can be said to be inspired by the LP12 which, with its choice of finnishes, power supplies, sub-chassis, tone arms and cartridges is extremely modular and upgradeable (by dealers and in the customers home). The main difference, at least on the hardware side, is the lack of third party parts but perhaps this will change.

It should be much more cost efficient for Linn customers to upgrade their Selekt platform than to sell a source or amplifier and buy a new (possibly non-Linn) product.

The most surprising thing to me, considering the target customers, is the lack of colour choice. I would have expected white, silver gold and perhaps even green, red and blue alternatives if the ’life style’ segment is targeted. Again, this may change.

A couple of other surprising aspects are that Linn do not go further and discontinue the the Akurate and Majik products or introduce a Selekt Exakt system hub.

Klimax and Selekt ranges and a wider range of Exakt and passive speakers would seem to be an attractive strategic direction for Linn.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-09-28 16:53

Selekt launch write up from Absolute Sound http://www.theabsolutesound.com/article ... elekt-dsm/

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-28 17:46

HansW wrote:

A couple of other surprising aspects are that Linn do not go further and discontinue the the Akurate and Majik products or introduce a Selekt Exakt system hub.

Klimax and Selekt ranges and a wider range of Exakt and passive speakers would seem to be an attractive strategic direction for Linn.

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I don't believe the Selekt is good enough to replace Akurate, and the Akurate System Hub is in fact supposed to be the front end of the Series 5, which is more lifestyle even than Selekt. It's a different beast entirely to all the other families, including Majik, and not a replacement for either. The Selekt has killed off the Sneaky and possibly the Kiko though.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by matthias » 2018-09-28 18:18

timster wrote: I don't believe the Selekt is good enough to replace Akurate,.......
I am sure Linn could make modules for Selekt that are able to outperform Akurate but certainly not the existing DAC module I have seen at X-Fi last Sunday.
Though Alan Sircom from HiFi+ prefered Selekt to Akurate soundwise.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Dobie » 2018-09-28 18:30

John R B wrote:
Similar initial experience here (MDSM + M140s placed asymmetrically in an irregular room). Based on a very quick try-out, the Optimisation Preference slider seems to be quite powerful. A modest slide to the right put quite a lot of bass back in for me.
I suspect all it is doing is increasing gain on the calculated peaks as you slide to the right.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Briain » 2018-09-28 18:44

Hi

I was posting the below on the SO thread, but it got locked by the time I'd finished it, so as per the thread instructions, I'll post it here. I thus apologise if parts of the below have already been covered, I wrote it in response to that (vastly shorter) thread and I do not - at the moment - have time to digest all the SO posts in this thread (I'll do so later this weekend) but below are my first thoughts.

---------------

After spending a couple of hours on the floor plan entry a couple of days ago (I ended up with 24 'walls', so that was a lot of fiddly corners to build into it) I very briefly tried the new on-line version last night (using both TV sound - that's the system's main purpose, so I know how it should sound with certain voices - and also one streamed tune; time was tight, but I will try a lot more music on another occasion) and it initially sounded very good, but there is not yet a sub feature (and my rear corner sub partially counters my L1 and L2 modes, so without the sub in the calculation these two dips will be a few dB too deep). Though it sounded very good, it was also a little bass light (possibly due to the incorrect sub dip issue; I'm sure it was particularly light on my L2 note, so that would reinforce that theory) so as it was provided, I used the slider on the final (optimisation preference) page to move it slightly more towards 'shorter decay time' than 'frequency response flattening' and that brought some weight back into the bass, so that's something I'll experiment more with when time permits. It does state that 'We’ve selected an optimisation preference based on the size of your room, but you can tweak it if you wish'. Anyhow, I think that it was at about 1/3 from the left (perhaps even less than that) and I think I ended up setting it to about 3/5 from the left (I'd need to do a lot more listening to decide exactly where that slider should end up being set, but there's probably not much point doing so until the sub feature is added as only then will some very key dips be correct).

A point to note is that I think it only does SO at the moment; if so, Exakt users will have to await the SO+ enhancement (that will likely be needed to apply your 'unit to ear' time of flight numbers, bespoke speaker characteristics tweaks, etc, etc). There's also no bass or treble shelf option, so for those 'in-Exakt' users who use that in the current SO (which I do in my bedroom system to good effect; I use a 1 dB bass shelf and a 1 dB lower sub setting to help better integrate it with my 212s) it might be worth holding off until these features appear (assuming that is in the plan, of course; I'm sure it will be as they can be exceedingly useful tools).

One key downside for me is that I have some small (relatively wide - given their frequency - and very shallow) dips set above 80Hz and without these being present, voices did not sound as natural as I am used to hearing (that's why I set them up in the first place) so for both the lack of sub and custom dip reasons, I reverted to the Konfig set profile for now (I also imported that from the DS when first trying the on-line version, so I can toggle between that and the new profiles via the web settings page). If time permits, I'll maybe try it again over the weekend and experiment with preferences slider and perhaps some of the various absorption sliders, but I suspect it would be better to await the sub feature to appear (both my lounge and bedroom systems have a sub). Of course, what I don't know is whether a custom dip feature will ever appear (I suspect not, though) so once the sub feature does appear, I'll have to see whether it's better enough to sacrifice my >80 chaps or not.

All the best,
Bri

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-09-28 19:06

Dobie wrote:
John R B wrote:
Similar initial experience here (MDSM + M140s placed asymmetrically in an irregular room). Based on a very quick try-out, the Optimisation Preference slider seems to be quite powerful. A modest slide to the right put quite a lot of bass back in for me.
I suspect all it is doing is increasing gain on the calculated peaks as you slide to the right.
System: Klimax DSM Katalyst, 2xSolo, Wilson Benesch ACT C60 + Torus

I managed to get the web system to generate some profiles for me yesterday (doesn't seem to be working today for me)

The vanilla profile lacked so much bass it was distracting me from hearing anything else. The Optimisation slider was set 3/4 towards Flatter Frequency Response (Reduce low-frequency energy). I moved this to 3/4 towards Shorter Decay Time (Increase low-frequency energy) and a more broad spectrum frequency range resulted.

I must say I like what its done in my system in my odd shaped room. I think the biggest change has been improved timing which seems to results in better defined notes which make instruments sound more real and hence the music natural and flowing. I'm not good as describing these things (apologies to the tune dem people here).

My previous SO settings were done by Paulsurround and I have been very pleased with them to date. But this new SO seems better. Perhaps its the better room model.

I had started to generate different SO profiles with slightly different Optimisation settings to find the most musical but I temporarily (I hope) cannot generate any new ones.

Dobie - I suspect you may be right but we'll never know for sure unless Linn choose to spill the beans which I suspect they will not.

I had tried a coarse adjustment to the Absorption factor of my suspended floor to see what effect this had. As I had suspected this generated more (too much) bass response. I haven't been able to try further adjustments to this. I am wondering if adjusting the absorption of the walls or ceiling might effect the higher frequencies.

I look forward to Linn refining the model further and adding back sub placement. But for now pleased with the result.
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