Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by cortina » 2018-10-08 13:37

I think the earlier suggested painting reference was perhaps what is needed (in a different way) for some to see the difference;

A truly great painting that really touches something inside of you can of course have really nice colors etc. And your favorite painting may have a lot of nice blue and red colors.

But if you go to galleries looking for paintings with the most magnificicent blue and red colors you will end up with paintings that have very nice colors that you really like, as they are your favorite colors. But the painting will not move you in the same way at all as you were focused on the colors and not what the painter wanted to tell you.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-08 13:44

sunbeamgls wrote:
Music Lover wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote: I would add that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, there's no reason why there can't be both.
Even if you are basically correct, that is not the point.

The point is...if the reproduction is musical - you don't care a BIT of the sound.
So if you start thinking "wow this sound great" - that is an indication something is not correct.
I disagree, there is no reason at all why you can't think "this is a fantastic musical experience" AND "this system does x y and z so well". There is nothing wrong with that at all. As long as the first of these is the most important, and, as Cortina suggests, there's a good chance that a musical system does the other stuff well too.

I'm not sure, but there seems to be some who think that a musical system has to be unpleasant and ineffective in other ways, but I don't understand the need for this kind of thinking.
I think that's a misunderstanding. Right now, we just discuss the priority.
For the record I want it all - top class musicality AND top class sound. :)
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-08 13:50

anachronid wrote:
lejonklou wrote:
timster wrote:it was markedly more musical (wider soundstage, more engaging mids, less muddy bass)
I say there is no correlation between the sound being more clear/less muddy and the reproduction being more musical.
In fairness to Timster, I don’t think he’s saying his system is more musical because of the wider soundstage/bass clarity he experiences with SO. He’s not equating "musicality" with these characteristics.

If you have the option of using SO, it’s easy to compare different settings, or to turn SO off completely. If it sounds better to you (more musical, emotionally engaging, enjoyable) in your system and listening environment, it is better :)
Not quite.
You should compare these systems with each-other.
1/ the system with SO active
2/ the system with SO off, AND the system perfectly tuned

Comparing a system with SO off, WITHOUT tuning the system to perfection is pointless.
You need to compare both options at their best.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by cortina » 2018-10-08 14:00

I agree fully with ML; I guess that this has been really neglected by many dealers the last years and possibly even deliberately so;
I mean why tune something into perfection with SO deactivated if your intention is to demo that SO is great with speakers ”anywhere”?
But then as ML says, the comparison is not valid.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Defender » 2018-10-08 14:33

o.k. to create even more confusion :)
for me a system sounds outstanding when I am able to hear/understand the different speeds/timings of the melodies/instruments in a song very well.

I mean slowing down play or speeding up play of one instrument independent from the other instruments.
For me a system sounds boring if I am not able to resolve those timing differences.

all in all use every chance to hear live performance and compare it to your home than you know what your system
is missing. As long as a kick drum doesnt sound like a kick drum and a violine sounds sharp and a piano doesnt sound like a piano your system has a way to go.

In my system SO has helped (applied by Paul the Commander) but I think SO in the way he does it is more than just room correction - maybe it eases out impedance maxima or minima for better amp/loudspaeker response.

At least I can crank up volume more before my amps leave class A with SO applied.
Last edited by Defender on 2018-10-08 14:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-08 14:35

Music Lover wrote: Not quite.
You should compare these systems with each-other.
1/ the system with SO active
2/ the system with SO off, AND the system perfectly tuned

Comparing a system with SO off, WITHOUT tuning the system to perfection is pointless.
You need to compare both options at their best.
SO assumes that the system has been correctly positioned in the room to start with. Its in the instructions. I think, in this discussion, we should assume that the system has already been best placed in the room. Because that is a pre-requisite of good SO.
And for some systems, in some rooms, then that will be all that's needed - but that's few and far between in the real World.
Last edited by sunbeamgls on 2018-10-08 14:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-10-08 14:40

Music Lover wrote: I think that's a misunderstanding. Right now, we just discuss the priority.
For the record I want it all - top class musicality AND top class sound. :)
I think we can agree on that then (as I've said in my posts that the musicality is the priority), I just find many of the posts here either absolutist or dismissive or both, which is not helpful because it just comes across as closed thinking.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-10-08 15:11

I'm still intrigued and interested in the question posed by my good friend, donuk. Define musicality in the context we're talking about. I expect Fredrik to lead with this one but I know he's really busy. (will probably pop up now and make me look daft!)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by anachronid » 2018-10-08 17:08

sunbeamgls wrote:
Music Lover wrote: Not quite.
You should compare these systems with each-other.
1/ the system with SO active
2/ the system with SO off, AND the system perfectly tuned

Comparing a system with SO off, WITHOUT tuning the system to perfection is pointless.
You need to compare both options at their best.
SO assumes that the system has been correctly positioned in the room to start with. Its in the instructions. I think, in this discussion, we should assume that the system has already been best placed in the room. Because that is a pre-requisite of good SO.
And for some systems, in some rooms, then that will be all that's needed - but that's few and far between in the real World.
+1

As I understand it, the SO algorithm compensates (among other things) for loudspeakers' location in their 'practical' rather than 'ideal' positions. As Sunbeamgls implies, the SO set up process assumes that the system is 'perfectly tuned' in the sense that the speakers are initially ideally located, before being moved to their practical positions.

Therefore the comparison should really be between:

1) the system SO active with speakers in their practical positions (i.e. with compensation for the difference to ideal position applied); and
2) the system with SO off, and speakers re-located to their ideal positions.

But of course the whole point of SO is that most of us listen to music in acoustically imperfect rooms, in which speakers cannot be ideally located :)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-08 17:41

Ozzzy189 wrote:I'm still intrigued and interested in the question posed by my good friend, donuk. Define musicality in the context we're talking about. I expect Fredrik to lead with this one but I know he's really busy. (will probably pop up now and make me look daft!)
ok then...

Musical understanding:
Dylan playing the same song in a concert hall (=same fidelity)
One day he is "on it", the other day he isn't.

Same sound, but the day he is "on it" - the song suddenly make sense.
THAT is musical understanding.

Or a bit more extreme:
Dylan is NOT "on it" in the concert hall vs Dylan is "on it" in the subway (echo and a lot of noise)

Order of preference:
1. Dylan is "on it" in the concert hall
2. Dylan is "on it" in the subway
3. Dylan is NOT "on it" in the concert hall


Again, to really understand - you have to experience this live.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by u252agz » 2018-10-08 17:46

lejonklou wrote:Back in the day when I got into Linn - the late 80's - source first and mad attention to detail was the secret behind every great product and every great sounding system. The guys who obsessed about the room, absorption panels and bass traps, often self-identified as Audiophiles, were frowned upon.

I'm really thankful that Linn in those days constantly downplayed the importance of the room, at every course, event and demo. Otherwise I wouldn't have become a fan and learned so much, I wouldn't later have started my own company and I wouldn't today have the best job on the planet.

Its a relief to hear this- I was beginning to think that my lack of 'room treatments', other than speaker placements, has led me miss out on quite a bit of musical enjoyment over the years.

The only person who does old fashioned 'room treatments is my wife' and acoustic panels and bass traps are rarely high on her wish lists.

I am intrigued about the effects of space optimisation, however and may well try it one of these days, once the Linn server is up to speed.

One of the main advantages of SO is that my wife will never know that the room has been treated.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-08 20:30

anachronid wrote:
sunbeamgls wrote:
Music Lover wrote: Not quite.
You should compare these systems with each-other.
1/ the system with SO active
2/ the system with SO off, AND the system perfectly tuned

Comparing a system with SO off, WITHOUT tuning the system to perfection is pointless.
You need to compare both options at their best.
SO assumes that the system has been correctly positioned in the room to start with. Its in the instructions. I think, in this discussion, we should assume that the system has already been best placed in the room. Because that is a pre-requisite of good SO.
And for some systems, in some rooms, then that will be all that's needed - but that's few and far between in the real World.
+1

As I understand it, the SO algorithm compensates (among other things) for loudspeakers' location in their 'practical' rather than 'ideal' positions. As Sunbeamgls implies, the SO set up process assumes that the system is 'perfectly tuned' in the sense that the speakers are initially ideally located, before being moved to their practical positions.

Therefore the comparison should really be between:

1) the system SO active with speakers in their practical positions (i.e. with compensation for the difference to ideal position applied); and
2) the system with SO off, and speakers re-located to their ideal positions.

But of course the whole point of SO is that most of us listen to music in acoustically imperfect rooms, in which speakers cannot be ideally located :)
The Practical/Ideal thing is, in my opinion, not much more than a party trick, and not a particularly good one. It relies on the speaker having a boundary to the rear and one side (left for left speaker, right for right). It takes no account of boundaries on the other side (ie either side of a chimney breast), or if one speaker doesn't actually have a wall behind it (and/or to the side) for example.
The calculation boils down to a single SO-like mode filter per speaker. Ths can be positive or negative though and has a higher upper frequency limit (mine come out at about 105Hz).
SO v2 might work things out better, but from the little I've seen so far, it still only generates one filter per speaker - and the results have been remarkably similar to the original SO.
i could be wrong, but I suspect that in reality it's a lot more complex than a cut/boost centered around a single frequency.
When I've tried it in reality by finding an ideal position then moving the speakers to their practical positions, the result hasn't been very convincing. I think it does have a place (reducing too much reinforcement from being too close to the rear wall), but as-described, it's a bit...optimistic!

So, the real comparison is SO on vs SO off?

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-08 23:06

u252agz wrote:One of the main advantages of SO is that my wife will never know that the room has been treated.
Good point! :)

PS
After building three houses, I finally got my own music room.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Nrwatson » 2018-10-09 06:07

Having spent ages tune deeming my system then having Paul over to SO
I enjoy my system much more and it sounds that Bob Dylan is having more good days
However when I am having a bad day it doesn’t sound so good

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-09 10:22

Without online support through the forum, things will be harder for Linn. The helpline will be inundated, which means any support will be a long time coming. I have already reported two things, neither of which have been responded to. So for now, until WigWam is up and running:
Does anyone here know whether the Digital Output Mode, when set to Fixed, should up/down scale everything, and if anyone has this same issue? The manual claims so, but if I set it to Fixed 96 for my external soundcard, it can decode anything 96k and above, but not anything below. If I set it to Raw, it decvodes anything up to 96k but nothing above.

And the Linn Account config isn't working. Yesterday and today all I get is "Something went wrong, try reloading". Anyone else?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-10-09 10:36

Yes, Timster, I can’t get into my Linn account either, same message that you are seeing. Perhaps they’ve outsourced their IT to TSB...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Nrwatson » 2018-10-09 11:44

Yes had to give gentle reminder to get reply then phoned
Unfortunately I listen to system in the evening and weekends when support isn’t available and the forum was fabulous

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-10-09 12:07

Latest from Sunny Downtown York:

Can rarely get beyond Music Systems - says my ADS is not online in spite of it playing Qobuz, and being visible with Kazoo, Konfig and Fing. (On iPhone, iPad and Mac).

Can rarely get a calculation completed. Says its either queued or failed.

Not impressed. Decided to stick with existing firmware and existing Konfig to meet my own requirements for optimisation, with which I am happy.

Lost contact with some great friends and knowledge base.

Not impressed with Linn.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-10-09 12:22

donuk wrote:Latest from Sunny Downtown York:

Lost contact with some great friends and knowledge base.


Donuk
Hifi Wigwam have created a “Linn Forum Users” section and are working with Linn to transfer across much of the Linn forum threads. I encourage displaced Linnie to he’d off over there.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by bugi666 » 2018-10-09 12:24

Is that technically .... legal ? Folks signed up to Linn forum terms and conditions, and as the forum is no longer existing ... can they transfer all this to 3rd party ??
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-10-09 12:36

I suppose it depends on the Ts &Cs that were signed up to?

Personally, I’m not bothered, just interested in getting the good parts of the old forum back online. This is a step in the right direction as far as I’m concerned. Admittedly, it could all have been handled much better, but, heck, we are where we are.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by bugi666 » 2018-10-09 12:45

Fair enough, I'm just not sure (genuine question, out of curiosity) if it all goes in line with the recent GDPR craze...
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-09 14:36

Music Lover wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:I'm still intrigued and interested in the question posed by my good friend, donuk. Define musicality in the context we're talking about. I expect Fredrik to lead with this one but I know he's really busy. (will probably pop up now and make me look daft!)
ok then...

Musical understanding:
Dylan playing the same song in a concert hall (=same fidelity)
One day he is "on it", the other day he isn't.

Same sound, but the day he is "on it" - the song suddenly make sense.
THAT is musical understanding.

Or a bit more extreme:
Dylan is NOT "on it" in the concert hall vs Dylan is "on it" in the subway (echo and a lot of noise)

Order of preference:
1. Dylan is "on it" in the concert hall
2. Dylan is "on it" in the subway
3. Dylan is NOT "on it" in the concert hall


Again, to really understand - you have to experience this live.
OK, most of the above is what you bring to the party (death of the author and all that). But, can this be related to recordings of live performances? And if so, can it show whether a system is set up right/tune-dem'd if it can be felt?
I'm thinking of Nils Lofgren Acoustic Live vs UK2015 Face The Music Tour in particular, but not exclusively. One is acoustic and the other electric, but even so the former he is most definitely "on it" while the latter he most definitely is not.To my ears/system/understanding anyway.
I had previously put that down to recordings/mastering engineers, the latter being very poor in comparison, but now I wonder? Is my system, Tune Dem'd and SO+'d up as it is, with all the tweaks etc. set up well enough that this "musical understanding" is also being relayed?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-10-09 15:22

And is ML's opinion on the definition of musicality the same as say, Fredrik's or ThomasOK's?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Music Lover » 2018-10-09 16:27

Ozzzy189 wrote:And is ML's opinion on the definition of musicality the same as say, Fredrik's or ThomasOK's?
Please ask them :)
It's all about musical understanding!

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