Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Briain » 2018-10-03 16:40

mcgillroy wrote:No shelves is a major drawback. I too integrate my sub via a bass shelve and tame some shoutiness via a custom filter at 2.5k.

Linn wants to be the Apple of audio and abstract as much complexity as possible away. But not sure if that squares well with this market.
I'm using a rear corner 345 sub with my 350A speakers and due to its location, it actually partially counters the length modes (so my L1 and L2 can be dropped by a few dB compared to the system with no sub) so I'm hoping that they soon add subs to the modelling as at the moment, there are some dips that will be too deep (and I can detect - by ear - that's what is now happening) though it still sounds very good.

Interesting point about the bass shelf. I asked Phil Budd whether the active crossover card's bass extension tweak (eg for 212's and Ninkas) could be emulated - for passive models - via a bass shelf. He suggested where to start and yes, it made for a nice improvement to my bedroom 212 system.

More recently, I procured a Sizmik for the bedroom (and now run the 212s with their ports blocked and with them wired out of phase with respect to the sub and no bass shelf) and recently, I dropped the sub level by 1 dB and added a 1 dB bass shelf which - when suitably tweaked - made quite a nice change to the sound (punchier bass - the 212 bass units doing more of the work - and more critically than that, much better sounding voices) so I hope both the sub modelling and bass shelf features will be added as soon as possible.

As to the sound of it overall, I spent a lot of time (and that is the understatement of the decade) both taking lots and lots of measurements and performing lots and lots of listening to get the results that I had achieved with the first generation SO. This one only took about 2 hours to get the room dimensions entered (though you can now add a few more as I'm on my 4th iteration of the room dimension assumptions) and it actually sounds pretty close to what I'd previously achieved with the Konfig dips (and some fancy hacked in ones, but I'll not expand on that here) and in some ways, certain aspects of the sound are actually better than what I'm used to hearing, so clearly Linn have performed a very significant body of work.

incidentally, on my old custom dip profile I also had a few wide and shallow ones above 80 Hz and whilst I could live without them, it is a shame that there's no plan to reintroduce custom dips in future versions. That said - and this is quite interesting - the absence of my custom ones is now far less irritating (in fact, it's pretty acceptable) than it was with the older custom dip profile, so I wonder if Linn's new SO has tackled something lower down that exacerbated these higher modes, or whether they might even have extended SO to cover frequencies slightly higher than 80 Hz (the one thing notable about this new version is that we have no idea of exactly what it is and isn't actually doing).

I still plan to upload my lounge SO2 profile to a spare Sneaky that I have (scheduled for my kitchen system) then stick it on the bench and sweep it to see what the differences are between my old and this new profile (not that it's relevant to anything, but just because I am so darned curious about all such things) but sadly, other work - the sort that puts food on the table - takes precedence, at the moment.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-10-03 17:08

Here is a summary of what I have found so far:

I have made various configurations for SO2 in recent days and tried adjustments in different extremes and interim settings.
SO2 does seem to clarify the sound and may suit some systems.
I regret the absence of graphic adjustments, so I have reverted to SO1.
SO1 sounds better than no SO.
The Linn end of things does not work satisfactorily.
It is hard to get my Streamer "on line" for most of the time in spite of being able to hear it playing, having Kazoo controlling it, making sure I am still logged on via Kazoo settings, and being able to see it in Konfig.
Having done that, for the past 24 hours I have been unable to create further calculations because it says "queued", never moves on and ends in a fail.
Please feel free to disregard my subjective impressions of the sound of my system because I do not use tunedem, having a system of my own.
Thanks again to Mr L for letting us impose on his forum. Unforgiveable that Linn is still closed.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-03 17:26

donuk, if your DS is fine on the local network but seems unstable when connecting to the cloud it may point to your ISP/modem. Do you have similar issues streaming from say Tidal/qobuz?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Briain » 2018-10-03 17:35

Linn have had a good few teething issues with their SO calculation server (it was down a couple of times last week and all this weekend). When it went down the first time, it sat in queued mode for over 30 minutes (and I was using either the browser refresh icon or simply hitting the F5 key; same thing) then eventually it just showed as having failed (I think it showed as 'error' against the profile). When it failed at the weekend, it was slightly different in that after hitting the calculate button, the browser immediately popped up a failed message (and the newly created profile entry showed as having an 'error', too).

I've just tried it a few minutes ago and it worked okay. It did sit in the queued mode for a few minutes (so there must be a few folks using the system) but it did eventually show the newly created profile as being selectable, so it does appear to be working at the moment. Again, you can use F5 to refresh the browser window, but my one (Linux Firefox ESR) did eventually update itself with the newly available entry showing as being selectable.

Anyhow, a huge thank you to Mr Lejonklou (and rest assured that I do also have some interesting non-Linn stuff to soon post about).

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-10-03 18:24

timster wrote:donuk, if your DS is fine on the local network but seems unstable when connecting to the cloud it may point to your ISP/modem. Do you have similar issues streaming from say Tidal/qobuz?
Thanks for the thought Timster, but Qobuz (always) works fine.
Same problem on my hard wired Mac, and wifi iPhone and iPad.
Fing shows my streamer as alive and present.

Not fussed, will stay with SO1

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Defender » 2018-10-03 19:44

what is interesting to me (when I remember it right) when Paul the Space Commander wrote his conclusions about his last European tour there seemed to be an influence from the speaker where the first and most important mode was to find with SO

so this leads me to believe there are more factors/influences in play than just room correction

I am going to be very cautious about everything which can cause me loose the SO1.0 settings

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-04 09:48

So we're nearing the middle of October. Have there been any further announcements on upgrades or products?

I've had a look on the website, re-vamped as it is there is nothing new. But I have noticed something:
Does anyone else think the "surround sound compatible" on ALL DSM products is misleading? Only if you're prepared to fork out on Exakt:
"The Davaar 55 software release introduces Surround Sound (multichannel) support to all existing DSM products that feature both HDMI and Exakt functionality."
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Tendaberry » 2018-10-04 11:40

Moomintroll wrote:What was your tweaking, Tendaberry? ‘troll
Well, I'm not quite done yet. What I did change was the temperature, but not the humidity (a hygrometer is on order though). Further I changed the absorption level for my floor and ceiling. I have yet to try changing it for the double-glazed glass and the one partition wall. I also adjusted the "Optimization Preference" slider, this affects the depth and width of the cuts implemented. Further experimentation is definitely needed: I have now entered large picture with a glass frame as a single-glazed window on the wall between my speakers. I still have to try to remove this and to change the absorption rate for the single glass.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-10-04 12:52

Tendaberry wrote:
Moomintroll wrote:What was your tweaking, Tendaberry? ‘troll
Well, I'm not quite done yet. What I did change was the temperature, but not the humidity (a hygrometer is on order though). Further I changed the absorption level for my floor and ceiling. I have yet to try changing it for the double-glazed glass and the one partition wall. I also adjusted the "Optimization Preference" slider, this affects the depth and width of the cuts implemented. Further experimentation is definitely needed: I have now entered large picture with a glass frame as a single-glazed window on the wall between my speakers. I still have to try to remove this and to change the absorption rate for the single glass.
Thanks for the reply.

I don’t think treating the picture as a window is a good idea, as there’s still a wall behind it and it’s how bass frequencies are absorbed, or pass through the wall, that’s important. The picture may be reflecting higher frequencies, though, but SO won’t address that aspect.

‘troll

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Spannko » 2018-10-04 14:45

Tendaberry wrote:I also adjusted the "Optimization Preference" slider, this affects the depth and width of the cuts implemented.
Does the Optimisation Preference slider have a numerical readout? One isn’t shown in the user manual, but I’d have thought it would be useful to have one.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Tendaberry » 2018-10-04 15:41

Spannko wrote: Does the Optimisation Preference slider have a numerical readout? One isn’t shown in the user manual, but I’d have thought it would be useful to have one.
No, it doesn't and yes, I would like one as well.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by DavidHB » 2018-10-04 16:10

Defender wrote:... this leads me to believe there are more factors/influences in play than just room correction.
Paul (Space Commander) was certainly using SO that way, as I understand it because of a perception that there were characteristics associated with particular driver units. I'm as sure as I can be that this use case was not one that the Linn designers had in mind. Their concern seems always to have been to counteract particular calculable interactions between the speakers and the room, and nothing more.

The adjustments offered were there to take into account the fact that rooms are often (I'm inclined to say typically) more complex and variable than the Version 1 SO could handle. When they saw that the adjustments were being used in ways they had not envisaged, the folk at Linn seem to have taken fright or umbrage or both, seemingly forgetting their own maxim that if it sounds better, it is better. An unkind person would put this down to a bad attack of the "not invented here" syndrome, while a kinder soul might wish to note that the use of SO almost as a set of digital tone controls represents something of a supportability nightmare. For myself, I think that both of these issues were at work in the development of the new SO, along with others, of which IMO the opportunity that server-based SO creates for data harvesting is likely to be the most important.
Defender wrote:I am going to be very cautious about everything which can cause me loose the SO1.0 settings
Me too. I'll probably experiment first with my Kiko. As I understand it SO+ is not yet implemented in the new SO, so my Exakt system will have to wait in any case. But, with Paul's settings in place, I'm not likely to be in a rush to change. Best to wait at least until the server problems are properly ironed out, which, whether Linn admits it or not, will probably take a while ...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-04 16:40

Defender wrote:what is interesting to me (when I remember it right) when Paul the Space Commander wrote his conclusions about his last European tour there seemed to be an influence from the speaker where the first and most important mode was to find with SO

so this leads me to believe there are more factors/influences in play than just room correction

I am going to be very cautious about everything which can cause me loose the SO1.0 settings
As long as you export your version 1 profiles from konfig, you won't lose them. If you don't like version 2, just revert back to konfig version 1.

I'm curious to know if you import version 1 settings into the cloud and apply them as-is, can they then be re-imported back into konfig? Or will the "apply" always set the version number to 2 regardless.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by John R B » 2018-10-05 14:00

timster wrote:
Defender wrote:what is interesting to me (when I remember it right) when Paul the Space Commander wrote his conclusions about his last European tour there seemed to be an influence from the speaker where the first and most important mode was to find with SO

so this leads me to believe there are more factors/influences in play than just room correction

I am going to be very cautious about everything which can cause me loose the SO1.0 settings
As long as you export your version 1 profiles from konfig, you won't lose them. If you don't like version 2, just revert back to konfig version 1.

I'm curious to know if you import version 1 settings into the cloud and apply them as-is, can they then be re-imported back into konfig? Or will the "apply" always set the version number to 2 regardless.
What I have found is as follows. Let's say I have two Konfig configurations:

Konfig 1 - a configuration never imported to the cloud
Konfig 2 - a configuration that has been imported to the cloud

The steps I followed were:

1) Use Konfig to load and apply Konfig 1. Play music;

2) Use the cloud to apply Konfig 2. There is a short break in sound while Konfig 2 is applied by the cloud. If I now restart Konfig, it still shows all the detail of Konfig 1 but also says "Main Room is not using this optimisation". (This is the same behaviour as when applying a cloud-generated configuration);

3) Click "Apply" in Konfig. This applies Konfig 1 not Konfig 2.

To me, this seems consistent with the cloud importing just the filter parameters of Konfig 2, and not the room dimensions, speaker type, speaker position, listener position etc originally used to calculate the filter parameters in Konfig.

There is no option to amend the imported Konfig 2 via the cloud interface.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Matteo » 2018-10-05 16:51

LP12/Kore/Akito 2b/ARadikal/Adikt/Slipsik 7-ND5 XS 2-AK/1-A2200-M109 [Silver-K200]

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by John R B » 2018-10-05 17:09

Interesting that it's badged at the Akurate level but doesn't benefit from the Katalyst DAC technology...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by anthony » 2018-10-05 17:27

John R B wrote:
Interesting that it's badged at the Akurate level but doesn't benefit from the Katalyst DAC technology...
It won't get katalyst until next year.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-10-05 17:44

@ John R B
Thanks, very helpful
J.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-10-05 18:05

John R B wrote:
What I have found is as follows. Let's say I have two Konfig configurations:

Konfig 1 - a configuration never imported to the cloud
Konfig 2 - a configuration that has been imported to the cloud

The steps I followed were:

1) Use Konfig to load and apply Konfig 1. Play music;

2) Use the cloud to apply Konfig 2. There is a short break in sound while Konfig 2 is applied by the cloud. If I now restart Konfig, it still shows all the detail of Konfig 1 but also says "Main Room is not using this optimisation". (This is the same behaviour as when applying a cloud-generated configuration);

3) Click "Apply" in Konfig. This applies Konfig 1 not Konfig 2.

To me, this seems consistent with the cloud importing just the filter parameters of Konfig 2, and not the room dimensions, speaker type, speaker position, listener position etc originally used to calculate the filter parameters in Konfig.

There is no option to amend the imported Konfig 2 via the cloud interface.
No - I use Konfig on two PCs, a desktop and a laptop, for SO.

If I had applied Konfig 1 with the laptop, then go to the desktop and import it from the DS, make changes and apply it as Konfig 2.

Then if I go into the laptop it will still show Konfig1 as that's the last one loaded into the Konfig on the laptop and tells me its not the current one.

So Konfig holds the last SO it worked on. So if you change it in the cloud, it will say its not the current one. This is only applicable to SO V1 profiles as Konfig cannot read SO V2 profiles at all.

So I have applied a SO V1 profile stored in the Cloud using the web interface. Then go into Konfig - it was the last SO profile it had used, so it says the DS is using this profile. I can also save the profile from the DS.

So Cloud applied SO V1 profiles are complete with all custom filters
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by John R B » 2018-10-05 18:23

Peter@57m wrote:
...If I had applied Konfig 1 with the laptop, then go to the desktop and import it from the DS, make changes and apply it as Konfig 2....
That's interesting. That's something I haven't found a way to do. If I import a Konfig configuration to the cloud, the only things the cloud will let me do is delete or rename the configuration. I can't see a way of making changes to it in the cloud.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 18:38

It seems that firmware updates for the Selekt are applied directly from the internet, there's no intermediate storage on the computer hosting Konfig. I expect the other DSs will follow suit in a later Davaar update. That'll be an end to people collecting (and sharing) their favourite version of Davaar, whether Beta or release.
Probably another of those things people did that Linn were uncomfortable with along with the "non-standard" applications of SO.

It's all very well, but what happens when they've upset so many customers that they go under, leaving lots of people with kit that can't be re-set up on account of there being no "cloud" support any more? Slippery slope...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-10-05 19:02

phino wrote:It seems that firmware updates for the Selekt are applied directly from the internet, there's no intermediate storage on the computer hosting Konfig. I expect the other DSs will follow suit in a later Davaar update. That'll be an end to people collecting (and sharing) their favourite version of Davaar, whether Beta or release.
Probably another of those things people did that Linn were uncomfortable with along with the "non-standard" applications of SO.

It's all very well, but what happens when they've upset so many customers that they go under, leaving lots of people with kit that can't be re-set up on account of there being no "cloud" support any more? Slippery slope...
From memory, the downloadable firmwares have always been previous versions, not the current one.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by John R B » 2018-10-05 19:04

John R B wrote: What I have found is as follows. Let's say I have two Konfig configurations:

Konfig 1 - a configuration never imported to the cloud
Konfig 2 - a configuration that has been imported to the cloud

The steps I followed were:

1) Use Konfig to load and apply Konfig 1. Play music;

2) Use the cloud to apply Konfig 2. There is a short break in sound while Konfig 2 is applied by the cloud. If I now restart Konfig, it still shows all the detail of Konfig 1 but also says "Main Room is not using this optimisation". (This is the same behaviour as when applying a cloud-generated configuration);

3) Click "Apply" in Konfig. This applies Konfig 1 not Konfig 2.

To me, this seems consistent with the cloud importing just the filter parameters of Konfig 2, and not the room dimensions, speaker type, speaker position, listener position etc originally used to calculate the filter parameters in Konfig.

There is no option to amend the imported Konfig 2 via the cloud interface.
...so I extended the experiment as follows:

4) In Konfig, load and apply an old unwanted optimisation Konfig 3;

5) In the cloud, import Konfig 3;

6) Back in Konfig, delete Konfig 3 (a noble sacrifice in the common good). Load and apply Konfig 1 (a Konfig-only optimisation). Play music;

7) In the cloud, select Konfig 3. Result - nothing. The cloud won't select Konfig 3. On clicking, the button never goes black. I can still select the previously imported Konfig 2 (the one that still exists in Konfig). Don't know what to make of that.

By the way, I found the following in the cloud Space manual "Note that this [imported] optimisation contains only the resultant data of the optimisation, and not the optimisation inputs such as room information or speaker and listening locations". So what I thought was a clever inference was in fact already documented by Linn. Pah.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-10-05 19:12

timster wrote:
phino wrote:It seems that firmware updates for the Selekt are applied directly from the internet, there's no intermediate storage on the computer hosting Konfig. I expect the other DSs will follow suit in a later Davaar update. That'll be an end to people collecting (and sharing) their favourite version of Davaar, whether Beta or release.
Probably another of those things people did that Linn were uncomfortable with along with the "non-standard" applications of SO.

It's all very well, but what happens when they've upset so many customers that they go under, leaving lots of people with kit that can't be re-set up on account of there being no "cloud" support any more? Slippery slope...
From memory, the downloadable firmwares have always been previous versions, not the current one.
Nope, the latest release is just a different directory:

Beta: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo/Downloads/Beta/
Release: https://products.linn.co.uk/VersionInfo ... /Releases/

You'll notice there's no Selekt firmware in there.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Wolfie » 2018-10-05 19:48

timster wrote:
phino wrote:It seems that firmware updates for the Selekt are applied directly from the internet, there's no intermediate storage on the computer hosting Konfig. I expect the other DSs will follow suit in a later Davaar update. That'll be an end to people collecting (and sharing) their favourite version of Davaar, whether Beta or release.
Probably another of those things people did that Linn were uncomfortable with along with the "non-standard" applications of SO.

It's all very well, but what happens when they've upset so many customers that they go under, leaving lots of people with kit that can't be re-set up on account of there being no "cloud" support any more? Slippery slope...
From memory, the downloadable firmwares have always been previous versions, not the current one.
To be honest, I don’t really understand why Linn have all the old firmwares available, as it must make support so much harder, although I suspect it’s mainly those who don’t need support who would be the ones most likely to be trying different versions.

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