Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-09-28 19:08

From the other thread...
I found a site for mastering with a calculator for speed of sound depending on temperature and humidity.
It does state that small differences can create issues in closed rooms. Would be interesting to know how much difference it makes for the room modes.


http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm

J.
Try this...
http://phino.gnarx.de/index.php?d=home&seitenname=home
...which will tell you how far to shift the frequency of your Linn calculated room modes to account for the actual temperature of your room. Temperature makes the most difference, humidity a lot less and pressure hardly any.
If you feel adventurous, the "v2" link on the left will take one of your SO profile files and do the caculations on it for you and give you the option to download an updated SO profile. Note when it says "download", it's not being done online or in the cloud, all the modifications and calculations are done within your browser.

edit. Generally it's worth doing when you get to around 2C away from the nominal 20C assumed by SO.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-29 06:27

matthias wrote:
timster wrote: I don't believe the Selekt is good enough to replace Akurate,.......
I am sure Linn could make modules for Selekt that are able to outperform Akurate but certainly not the existing DAC module I have seen at X-Fi last Sunday.
Though Alan Sircom from HiFi+ prefered Selekt to Akurate soundwise.

Matt
What he was comparing?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by matthias » 2018-09-29 10:48

timster wrote: What he was comparing?
Sircom:
Adding the Katalyst DAC cartridge upends this happy placement, however, as the Selekt DSM has more control over the music than the Akurate DSM. The differences are not substantial however; it’s more an ‘edges past by a nose’ rather than ‘pistol-whipping the Akurate into submission.

The full-up Aktiv Akurate DSM system is better than Selekt DSM, but it’s also a very narrow, very expensive Linn-related option. But the big issue is that bit in-between, where Selekt DSM takes on an Akurate DSM with Akurate amps in a passive context. Now it gets nuanced. The full Katalyst-enabled Selekt DSM with its brace of on-board Class D amps gets extremely close in performance terms to the Akurate DSM and power amp combination, and in many respects outguns the older platform.


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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-29 11:36

Not clear if it was a Katalyst ADSM or not. I'd wager not ;)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by mcgillroy » 2018-09-29 12:24

Maybe those new amps make a difference. It would be very interesting to compare Selekt Kat + internal amps vs 2200s vs Tundras external.

Edit: missing word
Last edited by mcgillroy on 2018-09-29 13:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-09-29 13:33

Is it my stupidity, but I cannot find anywhere in the new scheme of things to put in the height of the speaker stands, i.e distance from bottom of speaker to the floor. Anyone found this?
Or do they now reckon this is not now significant.

And, calculations will not work at all today....

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Moomintroll » 2018-09-29 14:06

donuk wrote:Is it my stupidity, but I cannot find anywhere in the new scheme of things to put in the height of the speaker stands, i.e distance from bottom of speaker to the floor. Anyone found this?
Or do they now reckon this is not now significant.

And, calculations will not work at all today....

Donuk sunny downtown York.
Page 23 in the instructions refers to height, which I assume means distance between floor and base of speaker.
Judging by the images that follow, height becomes available in the top contextual menu once you’ve entered the position relative to side and front walls.

‘troll

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Defender » 2018-09-29 17:40

Thank you all for contributing with information, thank you especially ThomasOK and thank you for having a home here while Linn has thrown us out.

Linn gets more and more suspect to me. I have an Akurate DS/1 now which was supposed to be upgraded to Katalyst ... I am still in the money finding phase to do the upgrade but now I heard the DS line is sunset. So I am asking myself now is it wise to still upgrade it or should I better look for other options.

I am also asking myself how much Linn are holding to their own strategy and believe that DVC is better than a pre amp.
I have only one source, my DS and I dont want to waste money in buying a DSM of any kind because I would buy things I dont need and at the same time compromise on things which are important to me.
That move is strange to me and to sunset a product (DS) where many said it sounds better than the same with
more funktionality (DSM) is unacceptable.

Well I might end up buying a Schiit Yggdrasil for almost the same money as the Katalyst upgrade and have a product which can grow in the future and either keep the Akurate DS to feed it or just sell it to make the move financially easier.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Gussy » 2018-09-29 18:11

Defender wrote:Thank you all for contributing with information, thank you especially ThomasOK and thank you for having a home here while Linn has thrown us out.

Linn gets more and more suspect to me. I have an Akurate DS/1 now which was supposed to be upgraded to Katalyst ... I am still in the money finding phase to do the upgrade but now I heard the DS line is sunset. So I am asking myself now is it wise to still upgrade it or should I better look for other options.

I am also asking myself how much Linn are holding to their own strategy and believe that DVC is better than a pre amp.
I have only one source, my DS and I dont want to waste money in buying a DSM of any kind because I would buy things I dont need and at the same time compromise on things which are important to me.
That move is strange to me and to sunset a product (DS) where many said it sounds better than the same with
more funktionality (DSM) is unacceptable.

Well I might end up buying a Schiit Yggdrasil for almost the same money as the Katalyst upgrade and have a product which can grow in the future and either keep the Akurate DS to feed it or just sell it to make the move financially easier.
I upgraded to Katalyst about a year ago - the improvement was outstanding.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by David Neel » 2018-09-29 19:08

Gussy wrote:
Defender wrote:I have an Akurate DS/1 now which was supposed to be upgraded to Katalyst ... I am still in the money finding phase to do the upgrade but now I heard the DS line is sunset. So I am asking myself now is it wise to still upgrade it or should I better look for other options.
I upgraded to Katalyst about a year ago - the improvement was outstanding.
I'd fully agree with that comment about Katalyst - but if you're looking for other options, try Hakai.
The less a person knows, the more certainly he knows it.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Defender » 2018-09-29 20:41

thank you for reassuring about Katalyst which I believe is a big step forward and I think in the end that and even more SO will keep me with LINN ... but still what LINN does confuses me

I am sorry the Linn website shows Selekt but the Forum is still closed for the staged rollout?
Linn is just afraid that the Forum members are going to skrew up the marketing and the positive momentum they would like to create with Selekt.

To be positive yes the product line gap between Majik and Akurate is now closed.
Its a nice scalable and flexible system.
Can drive loudspeakers directly like an integrated amp with streamer capabilities.

Actually I wished in the Linn forum that Linn was introducing a streamer with usb input ;) ... but they got me wrong. I wished for a streamer which could play directly from an usb thumb drive to limit influences of network switches, power supplies for those switches and HDDs as well as NAS drives and ethernet cables.

If there wouldnt be the sunset of the DS line I would be absolutely fine with it.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-30 14:48

Defender wrote:If there wouldn't be the sunset of the DS line I would be absolutely fine with it.
Frankly, I see no need to worry. Like others who have commented, I think that you would get very good value from a Katalyst upgrade to your KDS/1. And it's not as if, in discontinuing the DS products, Linn is abandoning the technology, as they did with CD players. Furthermore, Linn is likely to be able to keep (or remanufacture) a stock of DS/3 boards for some time to come, so the product is likely to have a respectable support life.

As regards the DVC, it is important to remember that, unlike an analogue volume control, a DVC is not a discrete component. in Keith Robertson's famous phrase, it's "just arithmetic". In making any comparison, you have to compare the whole of the digital signal path with, say, its analogue counterpart. The limitations of digital systems which DVCs make apparent are, again in the view of a number of people reporting on the Linn forum, much less marked with Katalyst than with the earlier technology. Apparently, this is because the much greater processing power of the Katalyst FPGA allows the processing to be done with much larger word sizes, so ensuring that significant bits are not lost. This explains why the analogue attenuation options that were a feature of earlier ADSM models are, as I understand it, not offered in the Konfig settings for the ADSM/3.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-09-30 15:54

donuk wrote:Is it my stupidity, but I cannot find anywhere in the new scheme of things to put in the height of the speaker stands, i.e distance from bottom of speaker to the floor. Anyone found this?
Or do they now reckon this is not now significant.

And, calculations will not work at all today....

Donuk sunny downtown York.
Just bin it and enjoy the music my good friend. :)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by DavidHB » 2018-09-30 16:11

Ozzzy189 wrote:Just bin it and enjoy the music my good friend. :)
Bin what? Space Optimisation? If Don does that, and my experience (yes, with Tune Dem assessment) is anything to go by, his enjoyment of the music will be considerably less than with a good SO setup.

David

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by lejonklou » 2018-09-30 17:01

On every system I've come across, and there's been a few, it's sounded more musical when SO was turned off.

I usually hear immediately when entering a room whether SO is being used. When I ask the owner if he can switch it off, I often get a sad, sceptical look and a story of how much time was invested in fiddling with it. Once it's turned off and the system starts breathing again, the customer often complains about room nodes. Some bass notes are too strong, others are too weak, he says. Not unlike those who sold all their vinyl and bought CDs started saying that they couldn't stand the hiss, crackle and pop anymore, the SO convert has tuned his listening focus into finding problems with the room.

I say "Leave it off for two weeks. Ignore the problems of your room, your brain will take care of them. Just focus on enjoying the music." In a few cases, the customer has later said "You know, music really is more fun now". In most cases, he's said "Its back on, I agree it wasn't optimal before but I'm trying to tweak it in a better way this time".

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Andrew L » 2018-09-30 18:35

A prime example of "less is more".
lejonklou wrote:On every system I've come across, and there's been a few, it's sounded more musical when SO was turned off.

I usually hear immediately when entering a room whether SO is being used. When I ask the owner if he can switch it off, I often get a sad, sceptical look and a story of how much time was invested in fiddling with it. Once it's turned off and the system starts breathing again, the customer often complains about room nodes. Some bass notes are too strong, others are too weak, he says. Not unlike those who sold all their vinyl and bought CDs started saying that they couldn't stand the hiss, crackle and pop anymore, the SO convert has tuned his listening focus into finding problems with the room.

I say "Leave it off for two weeks. Ignore the problems of your room, your brain will take care of them. Just focus on enjoying the music." In a few cases, the customer has later said "You know, music really is more fun now". In most cases, he's said "Its back on, I agree it wasn't optimal before but I'm trying to tweak it in a better way this time".
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2018-09-30 23:14

Yes davidHb, just bin it off and focus on the music. How did we ever manage before?
I'm not a fan in the slightest. I may be in the minority but hey, I can live with that.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Linnjim » 2018-10-01 07:57

Has anyone added a breakfast bar into v2 yet? I was thinking about adding a single glazed window where there is just an opening... does this make sense?

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by matthias » 2018-10-01 08:07

lejonklou wrote:On every system I've come across, and there's been a few, it's sounded more musical when SO was turned off.
+1
SO is like telling the musicians playing in a room to play differently.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Gussy » 2018-10-01 09:49

matthias wrote:
lejonklou wrote:On every system I've come across, and there's been a few, it's sounded more musical when SO was turned off.
+1
SO is like telling the musicians playing in a room to play differently.

Matt
If the room the musicians are playing in has poor acoustics (and I’ve heard a few) then telling them to play differently mightn’t be such a bad idea....

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by anachronid » 2018-10-01 10:22

Gussy wrote:
matthias wrote:
lejonklou wrote:On every system I've come across, and there's been a few, it's sounded more musical when SO was turned off.
+1
SO is like telling the musicians playing in a room to play differently.

Matt
If the room the musicians are playing in has poor acoustics (and I’ve heard a few) then telling them to play differently mightn’t be such a bad idea....
I've never had a satisfactory answer to the question whether 'room modes' (which I understand as referring to distortions caused by the interaction of the music source with the room in which it is played) are dependent on volume level.

My experience has been that SO settings that may improve the sound at very high volume have less effect, or even have a negative effect - e.g. in sucking life out of the music - at lower volume.

(Refugee from the other place where heretical views are discouraged)
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by DavidHB » 2018-10-01 10:45

Ozzzy189 wrote:Yes davidHb, just bin it off and focus on the music. How did we ever manage before?
I'm not a fan in the slightest. I may be in the minority but hey, I can live with that.
I've thought a bit carefully before responding to this, and to the points Fredrik made. I am conscious that Fredrik is the host of this forum, and in current circumstances I am grateful for the hospitality. So the last thing I would wish to be is in any way discourteous or disrespectful. But in plain honesty I have to say that my own repeated experience of Space Optimisation (SO) and its sibling Exakt is so far removed from what Fredrik describes and you imply that, even allowing for the fallibility and variability of human perceptions, I find the difference of view quite bewildering.

Let's begin with what we agree on, which is really the most important part of the discussion. I entirely agree that audiophile Hi-Fi is all about the music. I also agree with Fredrik that the task of the Hi-Fi system is to reproduce or re-create so far as possible the emotional experience of the original performance (howsoever you define 'original' in the particular context of the recording). For this process to work, the system has to remove (or not put in place) barriers that will distract the listener and reduce the emotional impact. The stated purpose of SO is to remove or reduce distracting artefacts produced by the interaction between the speakers and the listening room. So SO is designed not to add artificiality, but to remove it.

Of course we completely disagree in our assessments of the effectiveness of SO, and I'm afraid that at present I can see no way to bridge that disagreement. I have listened to a number of system demonstrations with and without SO, as well as, extensively over several years, to my own progressively developing system. In all cases, using SO with careful modelling of the room and Tune Dem adjustment of the parameters has made the music for me, and, when I am in company, those listening with me, easier to connect with, more immediate and more engaging (which is essentially what I understand by the term 'more musical').

My earliest experience of just how effective SO can be was in the old Hidden Systems showroom at Hartley Wintney. This was very early in the life of SO, even before the Davaar 150+ watershed in the development of the Linn software. Chris was demonstrating to me the (at that time passively connected) Akubariks that I still have (and which Fredrik, incidentally, has listened to), driven by an ADSM/1 and Akurate 2200 amplifier. the demo was mainly conducted with SO switched on. When, to demonstrate its effect, Chris switched it off, the music immediately became less clear, less engaging, and lifeless by comparison.

All in all, then, I hope that, even on this forum, respectful differences of opinion on the effectiveness of SO can continue to be expressed. It remains to be seen what changes the new version of SO will bring (as I have an Exakt system, it's not available for me yet). Even for an SO supporter like me, the new version will have to be seriously good to better the Paulssurround adjusted settings I am currently using.

David

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by matthias » 2018-10-01 10:49

Gussy wrote: If the room the musicians are playing in has poor acoustics (and I’ve heard a few) then telling them to play differently mightn’t be such a bad idea....
Disagree,
let the musicians play and improve or change the room.

Matt
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Gussy » 2018-10-01 10:55

matthias wrote:
Gussy wrote: If the room the musicians are playing in has poor acoustics (and I’ve heard a few) then telling them to play differently mightn’t be such a bad idea....
Disagree,
let the musicians play and improve or change the room.

Matt
But that’s exactly what SO is trying to do - to improve the sonic characteristics of the room!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by anachronid » 2018-10-01 11:00

DavidHB wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:Yes davidHb, just bin it off and focus on the music. How did we ever manage before?
I'm not a fan in the slightest. I may be in the minority but hey, I can live with that.
The stated purpose of SO is to remove or reduce distracting artefacts produced by the interaction between the speakers and the listening room. So SO is designed not to add artificiality, but to remove it ... Of course we completely disagree in our assessments of the effectiveness of SO, and I'm afraid that at present I can see no way to bridge that disagreement. I have listened to a number of system demonstrations with and without SO, as well as, extensively over several years, to my own progressively developing system. In all cases, using SO with careful modelling of the room and Tune Dem adjustment of the parameters has made the music for me, and, when I am in company, those listening with me, easier to connect with, more immediate and more engaging (which is essentially what I understand by the term 'more musical').
It's an easy comparison to make - what sounds better to you in your system is better. Any thoughts (my previous post) on whether the beneficial effects of SO in your system are volume-dependent?
DavidHB wrote:
All in all, then, I hope that, even on this forum, respectful differences of opinion on the effectiveness of SO can continue to be expressed.
Completely agree!
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