Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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timster
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-26 16:08

Donald wrote:Like many others I'm stuck waiting for the new SO+ for Exakt systems so thought I'd give the new documentation a quick read though.

Certainly seems much more comprehensive (challenging?) than the previous versions with the Advanced setup appearing to provide a lot more in the way of fine grained adjustments. Good to see Virtual Tune Dem being awarded a section on its own (3.5).

Two points did, however, jump out: -

1. When you Login to your Linn Account and want to Add a Music System this is done though Kazoo - hopefully we won't be forced to adopt Kazoo and other options will be available?

2. In the previous versions of the SO documentation advice was presented on how to deal with irregularly shaped rooms with bay windows - this appears to be missing form the current document?

As a person that likes a visual aid I'm disappointed that the the graphical representation of the room modes has disappeared - a bit like looking at a weather map without the isobars!

Hope you don't mind the questions but this is what happens in the absence of a Linn Forum.
It's a fascinating read for sure. I am slightly puzzled at the System/Room split. I actually tried calling my DSM Akurate rather than a room name, but Alexa voice control finds that rather difficult. So now it's Living Room. Perhaps I should have called it "My Akurate", but telling Alexa that every time seems a bit narcissistic! "lexa turn on MY akurate". "Alexa switch input to TV on MY akurate"!

Anyway I digress. I am hoping that once you've done the new SO calculation and applied it (and SO+ when it's available), you can then see the graphical representation in Konfig? If it's been applied to the system in the cloud, then you should be able to import it into Konfig as you currently can. Then you can see the resulting filters. And possibly tweak them the current way?

EDIT: Just realised the Room name is Living Room and that's what Alexa skills use. The Device Name is as they suggest (Akurate Exakt DSM). It seems that is it's only purpose in fact - the cloud SO. Is it ever used anywhere else?
Last edited by timster on 2018-09-26 16:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Jumanji
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-26 16:14

I wish it were but doubt this will be possible. I think this is done on purpose to get rid of the mode tweaking discussions.
It also allows to fix errors in the background without making them too visible.
J.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-09-26 16:20

Peter@57m wrote:As I have a non Exakt system, I thought I'd give it a try. Entered detailed room info, with two alcoves, several doors and windows, entered ideal and practical speaker positions, listening position and hit calculate.

And got "Optimisation Calculation Failed" with no further explanation :-(

Went back into it and no indication of where the problem lies.

So emailed Linn HelpLine as there is no forum.....................................sigh

I assume from posts above that some of you have it working
So Linn HelpLine came back to say "Was my system Exakt as it wouldn't work with Exakt, SO V2 is only available for non Exakt etc etc. For non Exakt systems the Space Tab should be available etc."

Well I did tell them I'd entered speakers and all room and placement info then tried to calculate, but I guess I didn't explicitly say it was non Exakt. So as requested I emailed back to say, yes its non Exakt.

Then received a reply to say "I would suggest sending a log report to Linn to allow our engineers to look into the problem you report. Please open Konfig and then select the ‘cog’ symbol and within this page there is a an option called “REQUEST SUPPORT”. Once this icon is chosen, please complete the details requested within and then choose “SEND” and our engineers can investigate further."
So if you get a problem - go to Konfig as above rather than the HelpLine.

timster
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-26 16:24

Jumanji wrote:I wish it were but doubt this will be possible. I think this is done on purpose to get rid of the mode tweaking discussions.
It also allows to fix errors in the background without making them too visible.
J.
Konfig SO has an 'Create from system' option. So I don't see why not.It's only the algorithms that create the filters that have changed. They'll still be a frequency, a gain and a bandwidth, Konfig will be able to read.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-26 16:26

timster wrote:
Jumanji wrote:I wish it were but doubt this will be possible. I think this is done on purpose to get rid of the mode tweaking discussions.
It also allows to fix errors in the background without making them too visible.
J.
Konfig SO has an 'Create from system' option. So I don't see why not.It's only the algorithms that create the filters that have changed. They'll still be a frequency, a gain and a bandwidth, Konfig will be able to read.
I hope you’re right, smart idea!
However the format could have changed, or also modes beyond 100Hz, plenty of reasons why Konfig may not be able to deal with the downloaded filter settings.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-26 16:39

Jumanji wrote:
timster wrote:
Jumanji wrote:I wish it were but doubt this will be possible. I think this is done on purpose to get rid of the mode tweaking discussions.
It also allows to fix errors in the background without making them too visible.
J.
Konfig SO has an 'Create from system' option. So I don't see why not.It's only the algorithms that create the filters that have changed. They'll still be a frequency, a gain and a bandwidth, Konfig will be able to read.
I hope you’re right, smart idea!
However the format could have changed, or also modes beyond 100Hz, plenty of reasons why Konfig may not be able to deal with the downloaded filter settings.
I don't think Konfig SO has limitations on mode frequencies - you can add custom ones well beyond 100Hz. Also, if the format has changed, that would require a firmware update to the DSMs - and would then make Konfig SO incompatible for Exakt systems.
Anyone with a non-Exakt system care to try it out?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Wolfie » 2018-09-26 16:53

teatime wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
teatime wrote:Well.. the new SO is not working too well here. In fact, not at all. It claims I need to "use Konfig to add speakers to an Exakt system".. but I don't have an Exakt system. And the speakers are of course added in Konfig. So that's me stuck.
I’m getting the same thing. I have Urika II so possibly that makes the system think I have a full blown Exakt setup, but I can go no further.

Mick
Right, same here. Urika II. Ridiculous bug.
Weeeeeell… You could unplug Urika from your DS, reboot the DS and try again... Just given that a go and was able to upload my current SO settings and also get to the room layout section. Haven't played further yet...

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-26 16:53

Timster,
I guess we have to wait and as I said, I hope it will work but it is very easy to apply changes that Konfig SO engine will not recognize but the FPGAs (or whatever components will handle the filter) will.

And somehow I have the suspicion than Linn is intending to do just that, an elegant way to get rid of unwanted discussions.
J.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by teatime » 2018-09-26 17:49

Wolfie wrote: Weeeeeell… You could unplug Urika from your DS, reboot the DS and try again... Just given that a go and was able to upload my current SO settings and also get to the room layout section.
Thanks! I considered trying this, but it was too late anyway yesterday. I will give it a try tonight! :)

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Macallan » 2018-09-26 20:06

Of course it's nice that the new SO incorporates more options & a refined model, but I don't like the new cloud-based approach at all.

The fact that you cannot see the resulting filters (frequency and gain) will always leave you uncertain as to whether you have really hit the room modes or not. I know the modes of my room and would simply like to know if the system is accurately correcting for them or not.

No model of the room will be 100% exactly identify all de-facto room modes. For example,the effects of furniture are completely missing from the model. I will always need to tweak the calculated modes, and this is not possible any more.

I am currently trying the cloud-based SO, and guess what-the optimization is 'queued' for over an hour now. Unnecessary side effect of the cloud approach.

There is no reason the new SO could not be simply done locally in Konfig (the model could be improved with Konfig releases, or even propagated in 'Konfig assets').

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-09-26 20:20

Hmm, having an Exakt system rules me out, but not entirely as it's an Akurate DS. So, I switched off the Exaktbbox and gave it a try.
Entering the room info was fairly painless, except that it gave me two Front Left speakers! After a lot of deleting and re-adding speakers, both via Konfig and the Linn Account page, I finally persuaded it that I had a Front Left and a Front Right. I set these up in the 'room' and pushed the button to generate a profile....
Yawn...
15-20 minutes later I got a result back: Error No explanation as to why.
The documentation says it will take 'a few minutes' to process, I'd read that as 2-3 at the most, not 15-20. Hopefully Linns SO server is down at the moment. If it's always going to take that long, there's no hope at all of being able to Tune-Dem any changes/tweaks you might make.

It seems as though it's still a 'work in progress'. It would have been interesting to try importing the result into Konfig, but I bet they're a step ahead there and will prevent it somehow.

Still - it all looks pretty good/impressive - if it works. One thing I did notice (a bit smugly) is that it has an option for changing the default ambient temperature and humidity. I always got good results from tweaking that in the old SO, but as I got such a hammering for daring to suggest it on the Linn Forum - and that it takes a bit of effort to actually update it, I've not used it for ages.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-26 20:34

Yeah, it appears it was rushed out and not properly tested. Also not supporting yet their top-of-the line systems (the Exakt systems) is an indication of it.
A forum might be of help to iron out the bugs, on the other hand it might make the issues very visible...
J.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-09-26 20:48

Yep, it seems it's definitely not ready yet! I couldn't even get it to switch SO off, or re-apply the profile I imported before I started.
As for the 20 minutes wait - I think that's another communications/refresh failure, I adjusted my failed profile to give it another try. It sat there saying 'queued' again, but when I hit refresh after a couple of minutes it came straight back with Error.

Shame really, it could have been very impressive if they'd got it working properly.

When it is finally working, I suspect it will be much better than the old SO/SO+. As things are it's yet another major disappointment.

I tried the new 'Pins' thing yesterday - that was a disappointment too. I pinned a Qobuz album to pin 1, that worked ok. Then I pinned Linn Classical radio to Pin2 and Radio 3 to Pin3. Pin2 and Pin3 both played the wrong stations, worse, when I tried to change the station with the remote in the normal way (ie a normal short press of 6 for Radio 3), nothing happened. I suspect it thought it was already playing Radio 3 so didn't try to change the channel.

All just teething problems, but you'd think at least some of the new features they've raved about would actually work?!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by donuk » 2018-09-26 21:19

No, not working properly either in sunny downtown York.
Will not finish calculating!
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Peter@57m » 2018-09-26 21:33

This is absolutely farcical to release new software with no Linn forum available to support it

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Turnip » 2018-09-26 21:43

It may just be me but how do the users who don’t stalk the web know about the SO changes? The only alert I had was on here and only because I took the time to hunt down the temporary tents of those evicted from Ghetto Linn. The dealers won’t do it as there’s no money in it so this type of change puts quite a lot of skill expectation in the hands of the end user. Not sure I’m very happy to be bounced into having to do Linn’s field testing.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by sunbeamgls » 2018-09-26 22:32

Interesting about forum perceptions.

I seem to recall the temp and humidity atuff being experimented by quite a few folks with many finding positive results.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by phino » 2018-09-26 23:10

Agreed, those that actually tried the temp/rh SO tweaks seemed to find them beneficial. But there were others, one in particular, who saw it as their mission to protect the future from such 'laughably unscientific ideas'.
Anyway, I feel vindicated now that it's been incorporated as an option in the new SO. Just a shame that none of it seems to work! Despite all the problems, I get the feeling that, assuming you put the effort into defning your room properly, it's going to give jaw-dropping results.

I quite like the idea of tweaking the input parameters (room dimensions, feature size/locations, optimisation preference) rather than tweaking the output (mode filters). I tweaked the old SO quite a bit simply by varying the size of an opening (defined as a door). The better you define your room, the better the output will be - it's the age-old thing of GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out.
The new SO still doesn't allow a feature to be an opening, but if you define your whole house floor area, you can add 'features' of concrete/drywall/partition construction which I suspect (though haven't tried) will allow you to effectively define an opening. Chimney breasts are now easy to set up, as are bay windows and non-parallel walls. The future is looking good - as long as the software works!

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by AsianWong » 2018-09-27 04:21

It's still broken...
At least I managed to have a play with it last night, although the result were far from impressive.
I think it's my open kitchen that then extends into the hallway that's causing the issues as my first attempt was to model just up to the kitchen.
Now that I've modeled the full space including kitchen and hallway it won't now calculate and I get the error message too, so I can't see if that was the issue.
Guess I'll spend the time while waiting for Linn to fix things by tweaking my ideal speaker positioning.

As for the "environment" settings, that is a great addition, as at lest with a/c here I can keep those parameters consistent. Back in the UK, my system always sounded worse during the summer. Higher temps and air pressure are bound to have an effect.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-27 08:08

Does anyone else think the "System Name" field in the cloud config is wrong? Konfig has "Room" and "Name" in Device settings. The new SO guide says to use a device name rather than a room, and yet it has what's in "Room" in that field. Should it not be what's in "Name"?

Also - there's no contextual help. Is that also true for the SO stuff?
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-27 08:37

Kazoo also shows System in Room.
I guess Linn are confused themselves...
J.

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Heiko » 2018-09-27 08:42

Just two brief questions:

I couldn't find it in Linn's docs and neither in this thread, but it is possible to integrate a sub (in my case a Linn M126; fronts 109, Device MDSM/1) within the new cloud SO approach in the same way as it is in Konfig?

And is ist possible to just toggle between settings quickly? I sometimes use this as a kind of "balance" adjustment, depending of whether I sit on the couch or in front of the computer at my desk.

Thanks, best

Heiko

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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-27 09:08

Jumanji wrote:Kazoo also shows System in Room.
I guess Linn are confused themselves...
J.
Kazoo shows the Room text not the device name. Which is correct if they continue with the "waiting for room" and Add room dialogues etc.
Alexa also uses the Room name - which actually is probably wrong. It should be the device/system name. I have other smart things in my Lounge, so I've had to call the Linn Room "Living Room". If I'd called it Lounge I would be turning lights on when I wanted to listen to music!
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by timster » 2018-09-27 09:11

I have also noticed from the SO document there's no bass or treble shelves?
I wish I didn't have an Exakt system temporarily. I'd like to see what it does, and if it can be imported into Konfig once it's been applied.
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Re: Linn announcements 9/2018, Selekt, etc.

Post by Jumanji » 2018-09-27 09:12

timster wrote:
Jumanji wrote:Kazoo also shows System in Room.
I guess Linn are confused themselves...
J.
Kazoo shows the Room text not the device name. Which is correct if they continue with the "waiting for room" and Add room dialogues etc.
Alexa also uses the Room name - which actually is probably wrong. It should be the device/system name. I have other smart things in my Lounge, so I've had to call the Linn Room "Living Room". If I'd called it Lounge I would be turning lights on when I wanted to listen to music!
In my case it shows the system name

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