Where do we go from here?

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matthias
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by matthias »

Music Lover wrote: Yes please, only focus on performance - not power AND performance
First, most people going to find the Tundra powerful enough, even with Klångedang or Linn speakers.
For the very few, that still have more demands on loudness... I suggest JBL 3677 or other high efficient speakers.
Seems unnecessary to spend:
- precious development time
- as a customer, pay more
For an amplifier with high power, that is not needed with efficient speakers.
+1
Much better to tailor the speaker to the amp than the amp to the speaker!

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nmakowsk
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by nmakowsk »

Hi all, I remember a year ago or so when I borrowed Tundra Mono 2.2s with the idea to test against my Tundra Stereo 2.2. Knowing how my inefficient Isobariks demand power I was very interested in testing out if doubling the power output might improve things. I like it loud in my room as often as possible because levels in green (kikkin2.2) just don't show off dynamics in the music. Its okay for late night quiet times but orange really gets things rocking and fun. My system literally sounds better and better until you hear that first bit of clipping in the mids and then I have to take it down a couple notches as that distortion sounds terrible like a driver about to let go. This is in upper orange almost red mind you. Fredrik must have designed this gear with no fatigue plateau of performance just a clipping point. At those orange levels its probably about as loud as I would ever need to go or risk hearing damage. So when I tested the monos with apparantly twice the power I found the clipping point to still be the same at the same loudness level. Quiet green level listening wasn't a revelation of improved performance either. I would say that the bass was noticeable more controlled on the monos but for the price point I would want to change other parts of my audio chain first. Treble and mids were very close to the stereo unit qualities. Vocals sounded the same too. I came to the conclusion that the Tundra Stereo is the "little amp that can." The amp gets quite hot on the bottom but I have never had it fail or go into thermal protection mode. Performance does not deteriorate with heat or extended periods of time, infact it needs about 45 minutes of playing to get the maximum dynamics flowing. The bass that these Isos can deliver is definitely the selling point. There is just no need for a sub here. Tom replaced my tweeters with ones I think made for the ninka (not sure) and they are okay on cymbals not too sizzly and quite good on vocals. The mids are the low point if there is one. I have $1100 into the speakers as feel that it would take several times that to beat them. So the focus shifts to other items...

Best bang for the buck is a Noktable no doubt as it just kills my audiotech stand in A/B. Second might be a Kore or a new slipsik 6.1. Also I use a sound org 3 rack stand that could probably be improved too.
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Charlie1
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by Charlie1 »

I would like more dynamic range, provided it doesn't compromise overall enjoyment.

When using the previous C4200, loud passages were louder, if you know what I mean - i.e. there was more variation in volume between quiet and loud parts of the track. Pretty sure the KCT and Solos take this even further. I find this helps add to the drama and excitement, although, (for me) is not as important as overall musical engagement, hence I have a Tundra.
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by nmakowsk »

I guess I wanted to relay my comparison story because it seemed like a situation where I was sure that by going to 40 watts per channel vs 23 watts per channel would be a slam dunk but it didn't turn out that way. Is this proof of what Fredrik is talking about when he was writing that the clipping point would be louder with a higher power amp? Both amps sounded the same at high volume orange to me so I had to conclude that double power didn't mean extra DBs just more dynamic bass lines. The amps clipped at the same volume so I guess I don't fully understand.

Also I wanted to talk about the speaker cables I am using. This is 2.48m K400 split with Linn knekts soldered by Tom. I have the XLR connector style since these 1986 S/N is just before the debut of the outboard crossovers. Has anyone ever tried a specific XLR that they felt was best? These don't have Linn written on them and I don't know if they were the originals or not. Also, were these XLR styled Isos considered inferior back in the day to something like a one pair passive banana connection. Probably nothing I could do anyways except look for later model 1987 or later editions. How do folks on here such as Music Lover, Fredrik, Tom, etc. feel about the older XLR?
Last edited by nmakowsk on 2018-08-15 17:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by Ozzzy189 »

For me it's just about loud enough but you can't really enjoy the music at full volume, music production notwithstanding. What spoils things at high decibel levels is my room, its just a bit too live. Go stand in the hallway and it's much better. So for me the amps certainly are loud enough for 90% of the time but my room is spoiling things at that level 99% of the time.
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for the report, nmakowsk!

What differs between Tundra and Tundra Mono in terms of power is the amount of current they can deliver. Tundra Mono can deliver twice as much as Tundra. With some loudspeakers - those with very low impedance - this will make Tundra Mono play louder before it reaches the point of clipping.

Tundra and Tundra Mono both have the same maximum output voltage, however: 26 Volts. For some loudspeakers (those without low impedance dips), the point of clipping occurs when that voltage is reached. So with those loudspeakers, Tundra and Tundra Mono will clip at the same volume level.

The difference you heard in the bass is not related to power, but to differences in quality between the circuits of Tundra and Tundra Mono.

That loudspeakers can have quite different impedances complicates how power amplifies must be designed. If all loudspeakers were for instance 8 ohm and flat across the frequency range, it would be easy to determine the voltage and current required for it to play as loud as possible given its resources (the musical qualities would however still be a challenge). But as loudspeakers differ so much, a balance must be established. The amplifier must be able to deliver enough current not to clip with the low impedance speakers and enough voltage not to clip with the high impedance speakers.

Power is voltage×current, so to significantly increase the power of an amp, it's a good idea to double both the voltage and current capability, which equals four times as beefy power supplies. Tundra and Tundra Mono uses two 100 W power supplies each, so the next step would be two 400 W power supplies. Those are much more expensive and would also require most of the amplifier circuit to be redesigned, using components rated for the higher power. In other words: Lots of fun work and expenses! :)
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by ThomasOK »

I don't think a lot of people realize how much more power you need for it to sound like it has more power. The problem is that the ear hears in a basically logarithmic fashion. What this means is that double the power won't get it anywhere near twice as loud, to do that you need ten times the power! Going from 24 watts to 40 watts will give you a hair less than a 3 dB increase in power. Turn up your preamp 3 dB and you will see what that sounds like. Going from 24 watts to 240 watts would theoretically give you double the sound level, all other things being equal (which they never are). But, also as mentioned, watts doesn't tell the whole story. How well does the amp deal with the difficult load that many speakers represent? How does it sound when you crank it up? How well does it control the bass drivers, thereby delivering true punch?

An example of this became obvious to me a couple of times with the Tundra stereo amp. The first was when I received my original 1.0 and decided to compare it to a pair of Klimax Solo (pre-Dynamik) just for the fun of it. Imagine my surprise when I and another person here found the Tundra a bit more tuneful on complex music yet a bit less tuneful on simple music (like acoustic guitar and voice). What was equally interesting was when I cranked them both up. The Tundra clips quite audibly but sounds glorious just below clipping. The Solos are quite different as they get harder and more compressed as you start to push them real hard but never clip as harshly as the Tundra. But if you were listening to how high you could push them until they showed noticeable musical compression they were only about 4 to 5 dB higher than the Tundra clipping point! Higher than that you didn't really want to listen to them anyway. So, although spec wise they put our 290 watts they certainly didn't sound twice as loud as the 24 watt Tundra. The second time it became obvious was the first time I hooked up a Tundra to Isobariks, fully expecting it wouldn't be able to drive them, and found that it actually sounded quite wonderful and played pretty loud. nmakowsk, a customer of mine, bears this out with his LP12, Lejonklou, Isobarik system. It is also borne out in my own case as the QUAD ESL is rated at about 85dB efficiency and is known to be a bear to drive but my Tundra Monos will play them louder than I want to hear them.

So you can see why Fredrik feels quadruple the power is necessary for it to be very worthwhile to do, and as he mentioned it would be expensive (we have discussed this a few times). Certainly double the power would look better on a spec sheet and might lead to a few more sales, but it wouldn't make any appreciable difference in volume level or the capability to drive speakers.
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by ThomasOK »

bonzo wrote:An observation in regard to “muscle” amp. When listening to music I almost always listen in the room where the gear is. I’ve noticed something familiar when I am outside the listening room. So very similar to my experience with Aktiv 212s with 4200s, the music seemed/ felt “louder” outside of the room. I believe these wonderful amps provide the same experience. Outside of my listening room I’m constantly surprised at how “loud” the music is throughout the house. Like Aktiv, because these amps are so musical, and distortion (not sure if correct term) barely exists, it doesn’t feel loud until outside the room. I hope I’ve been able to make my point and haven’t confused the group
bonzo wrote:Ozzy,
I’m quite intrigued by your post about Totem speakers. I’d love to hear your thoughts/experience comparing these speakers to 242s, for example, or any other Linn speakers. No crossover for the bass is interesting and a bit unclear to me. If not active, how can there Not be a passive crossover. I anxiously await your response. Ty, Jon
I thought I'd give a shot to both of these. We tend to be accustomed to rate loudness of things by how much distortion we hear rather than how many decibels are actually being put out. A more distorted sound rates as louder. Because of this you might find that two amps getting close to clipping will have one sounding louder than the other even at the same measured decibel level because that amp is distorting more. Put the other way the better amp can be playing quite loud without you thinking it is loud. It only becomes obvious how loud it is when you try to have a conversation with somebody, get a phone call or, as above, go into another room.

On the Totem speakers with no crossover to the bass driver, this is not uncommon. It was actually used a fair bit on early acoustic suspension designs and has been considered by some as a mark of a good design. (Rega has also used it in a few models so maybe not a surprise that Ozzy likes both them and the Totems.) Basically it is accomplished by designing the bass driver so that it has a relatively smooth natural rolloff at the top of its range and then designing a tweeter to match. In the simplest versions the tweeter is designed to have the same efficiency as the bass/mid driver and only a single capacitor is necessary to block low frequencies from getting to the tweeter and blowing it up. Rega and others have been known to change the winding of the voice coil on a bass driver to give a specific inductance so they get the right blend with other drivers without extra crossover components. Of course, this only works with two way, or possibly 2.5 way speakers. Going to three way is going to require more complex crossovers - one reason there are so many two-way speakers out there.
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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by Ozzzy189 »

Thanks Thomas and Fredrik. Awesome posts.
A few years ago I took a kds2 (I think it was!) sagatun monos and tundra monos to someone to have a listen to with his speakers.
They were huge B&W speakers in a very small room with classe amps. My initial thoughts were that the sound was very very shouty and not pleasant to listen to. He loved it however and I knew it was going to be a tough day. The tundra pairing was far more musical and suited the very small room and huge speakers far batter than I imagined. I thought they'd struggle to drive them but they were a revelation. Adding the mono pre amps resulted in a lovely sound that was very listenable and I was very happy with the sound. The kds was much harder to appreciate believe it or not. The exact details of what was listened to and what order is a little hazy now but I was far happier with the sound when the Lejonklou kit was in use. However the owner wasn't. He liked the shouty sound and that took some swallowing. I had to appreciate that we all like different things.
Fast forward to where we are now.
I have very slim floorstanding loudspeakers that I thought would match with my room and equipment and I just asked Chris Fuller to order me some without me ever seeing or listening to them. I did however have extensive dialogue with Vince Bruzzese who designed the speakers and decided to just say '**** it', I'll buy em and if they're crap I'll blame you! Lol.
Anyway they're just stunning, any slight worries were completely negated when I plugged my Freddie boxes and ads3 into them. Only the feet are a let down at their price point.... They don't extend the footprint of the speaker at all and they're very slim and I'm worried about people knocking them over!
The only reason that I got this more power thing into my head is probably because every demo Vince does, he seems use very high powered mcintosh labs amplifiers. I realise this is total overkill for my needs and it's all about musical enjoyment and connecting with the tune, which Is the Lejonklou signature imo.
So, I took a punt and came out one happy bunny. Awesome amps, incredible speakers and the cherry on top of Ozzzy's cake- the ads3.
Its just such a shame my nas seems to have got fried whilst I was away with Don getting married to my lovely lady, MJ. I forgot to turn everything off and there was a lot of lightning. There's always something! Grrr.
Anyway, my point is that I think we were both guilty of speaker desirability, insofar as that we were both adamant that we wanted a certain speaker in our rooms, to live with and enjoy and possibly we were shoe-horning them in somehow, yet I believe one was much more successful than the other.
I'll send Fred a picture and see if he will post it for me so you guys can see them.
ADS3/SagMono/Tundra 2.2- . Totem Tribe Tower.
Lejonklou demos available in the N of England.
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