How to clean vinyl records

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

How to clean vinyl records

Post by Azazello »

Hey Guys!

I just have to share something I just realized. The other day when I was about to put on a record I saw my camera cleaning device (just like this one) laying right beside my LP12. I felt a bit like an idiot having been playing records for 30 years or so and never thought about it before, but of course I had to try it.

It doesn't get get rid of stuff that is stuck on the record, but apart from that its really really effective. I can't recall one of these ever being mentioned before as a record cleaning device, but if you play records and don't have one: Give it a try! You will not be disapointed!:)
Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by Azazello »

Guys! Try this!!!
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by beck »

Azazello wrote:Guys! Try this!!!
I am not used to cleaning records. Can you take me through the proces step by step. Thank you for the heads up!
Playing cd’s…………
jewa
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 2007-01-31 18:57

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by jewa »

I use it to blow off dust on the needle! ;)
pidge22
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 313
Joined: 2008-10-24 19:35

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by pidge22 »

I will stick to my Keith Monks...until you have cleaned albums on a Keith Monks or Loricraft you don't realise the difference it will make to the quality of the sound...
KDSM2,Klimax Solo's/1,Lp12,Keel,Radikal/1,Aro,Kandid,Tron Seven,Akurate 242's
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by Tendaberry »

I agree!
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

We had a long thread with recorded clips on this forum some years ago; before and after different stages of cleaning with a record cleaning machine. Also clips of the differences between various cleaning fluids.

The thread caused some controversy, as some felt the sound improved after cleaning. I and some others felt that musically, the records lost their edge and became gradually more smooth and dull sounding with each step of cleaning. In other words: Not only the records were cleaned, but also the music. And not in a good way.

I have since then avoided any second hand vinyl that is said to have been cleaned.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by tokenbrit »

What to do about dirty records then? Brush, photo-blower, or vac only, and replace as necessary or possible, or is there a cleaning fluid and method that isn't too musically destructive? I was thinking about getting a record doctor V - worst case I could just dry vac, and anti-static...
FangfossFlyer
Member
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 2012-02-25 19:26
Location: Yorkshire, U.K.

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by FangfossFlyer »

In your opinion did this include ultrasonic RCMs as well?
pidge22
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 313
Joined: 2008-10-24 19:35

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by pidge22 »

lejonklou wrote:We had a long thread with recorded clips on this forum some years ago; before and after different stages of cleaning with a record cleaning machine. Also clips of the differences between various cleaning fluids.

The thread caused some controversy, as some felt the sound improved after cleaning. I and some others felt that musically, the records lost their edge and became gradually more smooth and dull sounding with each step of cleaning. In other words: Not only the records were cleaned, but also the music. And not in a good way.

I have since then avoided any second hand vinyl that is said to have been cleaned.
I think it depends on what machine you are cleaning vinyl on...just listening to Damian Rice Live At Fingerprints an album I listen to frequently & this is the first time I have listened to it since cleaning it on the Keith Monks & the improvement in sound quality in every aspect is significant..
Its like anything in life you get what you pay for !
KDSM2,Klimax Solo's/1,Lp12,Keel,Radikal/1,Aro,Kandid,Tron Seven,Akurate 242's
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote:What to do about dirty records then? Brush, photo-blower, or vac only, and replace as necessary or possible, or is there a cleaning fluid and method that isn't too musically destructive? I was thinking about getting a record doctor V - worst case I could just dry vac, and anti-static...
How many records are actually dirty? I find almost none. While some may appear so at the first playing - I do physically remove tiny blobs on the surface after I've heard them making a loud tick - most sound clean after having been played once or twice.

I have only cleaned my stylus, with silly putty and green paper, for the last 30 years, as per Linn's old advice. Never the records. They seem to be in great condition, many of the "vinyl now cleaned" recordings I've heard appear far more crackly.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

FangfossFlyer wrote:In your opinion did this include ultrasonic RCMs as well?
No, I haven't tried any ultrasonic RCM's.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

pidge22 wrote:
lejonklou wrote:We had a long thread with recorded clips on this forum some years ago; before and after different stages of cleaning with a record cleaning machine. Also clips of the differences between various cleaning fluids.

The thread caused some controversy, as some felt the sound improved after cleaning. I and some others felt that musically, the records lost their edge and became gradually more smooth and dull sounding with each step of cleaning. In other words: Not only the records were cleaned, but also the music. And not in a good way.

I have since then avoided any second hand vinyl that is said to have been cleaned.
I think it depends on what machine you are cleaning vinyl on...just listening to Damian Rice Live At Fingerprints an album I listen to frequently & this is the first time I have listened to it since cleaning it on the Keith Monks & the improvement in sound quality in every aspect is significant..
Its like anything in life you get what you pay for !
Isn't 'You get what you pay for' one of the most tired and lazy expressions ever? There are about as many examples where it applies as there are examples where it doesn't apply at all.

The old thread I was referring to involved a very expensive German RCM, by some considered the best there is.
pidge22
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 313
Joined: 2008-10-24 19:35

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by pidge22 »

lejonklou wrote:
pidge22 wrote:
lejonklou wrote:We had a long thread with recorded clips on this forum some years ago; before and after different stages of cleaning with a record cleaning machine. Also clips of the differences between various cleaning fluids.

The thread caused some controversy, as some felt the sound improved after cleaning. I and some others felt that musically, the records lost their edge and became gradually more smooth and dull sounding with each step of cleaning. In other words: Not only the records were cleaned, but also the music. And not in a good way.

I have since then avoided any second hand vinyl that is said to have been cleaned.
I think it depends on what machine you are cleaning vinyl on...just listening to Damian Rice Live At Fingerprints an album I listen to frequently & this is the first time I have listened to it since cleaning it on the Keith Monks & the improvement in sound quality in every aspect is significant..
Its like anything in life you get what you pay for !
Isn't 'You get what you pay for' one of the most tired and lazy expressions ever? There are about as many examples where it applies as there are examples where it doesn't apply at all.

The old thread I was referring to involved a very expensive German RCM, by some considered the best there is.
You are probably right it is a bit of a tired expression but never truer than in the hifi world i.e I have found... I had to spend do a lot of money after a lot of "box swapping" to get near my true Nirvana....now listening to Antoinio Forcione & Sabina Sciubba again recently cleaned on the KM & the improvement again is considerable...
KDSM2,Klimax Solo's/1,Lp12,Keel,Radikal/1,Aro,Kandid,Tron Seven,Akurate 242's
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

Ok then! :)

Some before and after clips and I'm willing to reconsider.
pidge22
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 313
Joined: 2008-10-24 19:35

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by pidge22 »

lejonklou wrote:Ok then! :)

Some before and after clips and I'm willing to reconsider.
No problem though if you can tell me the best way to do these as I have never done them before...
KDSM2,Klimax Solo's/1,Lp12,Keel,Radikal/1,Aro,Kandid,Tron Seven,Akurate 242's
teatime
Active member
Active member
Posts: 167
Joined: 2007-02-11 23:37

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by teatime »

Some time ago I acquired some 100+ 60-70's records that had been stored under sub-optimal conditions for 20+ years. The vinyl itself was generally in very good condition, but there was dust everywhere. There was no way around it, many of these records needed to be cleaned. Somehow.

I've always been skeptical of record cleaning and treatment, having heard some truly awful results, but I had read about ultrasonic wash and it seemed promising, apart from being ridiculously expensive. I also didn't like that even the expensive machines just left the records to dry by (fan-assisted) evaporation.

So, after some online research, I settled on a setup where I first
1. vacuum the dry records(*) - to get rid of loose dust
2. ultrasonic wash
3. vacuum the wet records - to get rid of the remaining liquid

Does it work? Let me know! :) (Be warned: The files are large, about 120MB each. They are unmodified songcorder-rips @192/24)

Pre wash (it takes a while before the music starts, ):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Rlnjw ... m-Kh-jDd08

Post wash:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1e-_9Y ... MDHAVAq0Cq

(*) come to think of it... I didn't do this in the beginning, and this was one of the first washes, so this wasn't done on this particular record/recording.

[I hope this falls under fair use or whatever you call it. This is meant to illustrate the effects of a record washing technique, not to share music...]
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by beck »

Great clips. They work very well on my ipad. I just love discussions based on clips and not based on what people think.
A job well done with the cleaning. It is easy to hear the difference but I do get what Lejonklou is talking about. People have to make up their own mind about this.
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by Charlie1 »

I don’t recall the old comparisons here so nice to hear these clips. Impressive job of cleaning up the noise. I do find the pre-wash clip more haunting and enjoyable though. I wonder if the situation would change after a couple of plays?
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

These clips are very interesting, thanks teatime!

I first notice that the cleaned record sounds a lot more quiet. Both surface noise and clicks are effectively removed. Then I notice that the bass is a little "rounded off" on the cleaned record - it plays tighter and better in the unwashed clip.

Compared to the old thread with the German machine, this result is way better in that surface noise is significantly lowered (in the old thread there was in some cases hardly any difference) and the music is not as much negatively affected, IMO.

Two questions spring to mind:

1. If you had simply played the unwashed record twice, how would it have sounded the third time? In my experience, second hand records that I buy are effectively cleaned by the stylus and improve with every play (not sure how many, but at least the first 2-3 times).

2. As Charlie said, I wonder whether the "rounded off" character that I can hear on the washed record will be reduced when the record has been played a couple of times? The effect could be due to surface properties and friction (which could possibly disappear with repeated use) rather than any physical alteration on the exact shape of the groove (which would be irreparable).
teatime
Active member
Active member
Posts: 167
Joined: 2007-02-11 23:37

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by teatime »

Interesting. Now that you point it out, I also note that a slightly "rounded off" character to the latter recording. I think the system had been idle prior to the second recording, so the latter is recorded on a "cold" system. Though it seems most likely any differences here come from the washing, it's hard to be sure. I think I'll play around with a shorter running time of the ultrasonic bath (Here it was 10 minutes, I think.) to see if I can find a "sweet spot". I do like the lower surface noise.
lejonklou wrote: Two questions spring to mind:

1. If you had simply played the unwashed record twice, how would it have sounded the third time? In my experience, second hand records that I buy are effectively cleaned by the stylus and improve with every play (not sure how many, but at least the first 2-3 times).
Impossible to know, but in general I agree; records usually improve with play. However, some of these were really dirty and had way more clicks than I usually find with second hand records, which is why I elected to try cleaning. Also, I don't really enjoy using the Kandid for cleaning records. :)
lejonklou wrote: 2. As Charlie said, I wonder whether the "rounded off" character that I can hear on the washed record will be reduced when the record has been played a couple of times? The effect could be due to surface properties and friction (which could possibly disappear with repeated use) rather than any physical alteration on the exact shape of the groove (which would be irreparable).
You mean from any residue from the wash? It seems unlikely to be more residue than before the wash, and removing dirt shouldn't make things worse. I find it more likely there is actually alternation to the groove. But I find it really odd that it would be more evident in the bass. You'd think any damage to the groove would be more evident in the finer details / treble.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

Can you describe how exactly the cleaning process works, teatime? When I mentioned surface properties, I've experienced many times that all liquids on the record has a musical effect or signature after it's been removed. I assume there was some liquid involved in this process? Also brand new records can sound better after having been played a few times, apparently they have residue from the pressing of the record, where chemicals are said to be used to make the record release easily from the stamper.

I agree that it doesn't feel great to let a very expensive cartridge do the cleaning. It will most likely also cause more wear on the tip than when playing a clean record. So I do agree it would be nice to have a RCM that really works - with no negative musical impact.

And regarding the bass, well it's one of the mysteries in HiFi how we can perceive bass quality being affected by details that shouldn't really have any impact on the bass. Even for instance a tiny adjustment of tweeter levels can result in a perceived improvement of the low bass.
User avatar
markiteight
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 834
Joined: 2012-01-13 01:50
Location: Seattle, Wa. USA

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by markiteight »

Hi all,

I have some points of consideration that may add clarity...or confusion to this discussion. But before we dive into that, here are the clips:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yv9j0ldwnyino ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4a4j70t6yit8z ... .flac?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjockm81t2je4 ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h72ldbxjh5vvd ... .flac?dl=0

These clips were made with new, freshly opened records, so the play counts are a known quantity. For the first pair I played the record once through, made the first recording, cleaned, played once through again, then made the second recording. For the second pair I played the record twice, made the first recording, cleaned, then played it twice again before recording. This was done to insure there were no surprise defects on the record (there were on the Loreena McKennitt album...this is the noisiest new vinyl I've heard and it's warped) and to make sure everything in the system was fully warmed up and at cruising altitude before the recordings were made. Playback components used were an LP12/Cirkus/Lingo"2"/Ekos1/Lyra Dorian that is in desperate need of a tune-up, Linto, Silvers, cheap Radio Shack RCA to 1/8" TRS adaptor, and Audacity running on a 2011 17" MBP using default settings.

Record cleaning machine is a Loricraft PRC3 with upgraded 2 head vacuum pump from a PRC4 (more than double the power of the single piston pump factory fitted to the PRC3), and Audio Intelligent 3 stage cleaning system.

As with most things in life there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Unfortunately most record cleaning machines fall into the latter category. I postulate that wand style machines like those from Keith Monks and Loricraft are the only designs that come closest to doing it right. There are two things happening when a record is cleaned. First, the fluid (if properly formulated) captures, releases, and holds in suspension any contaminates and foreign matter caught in the record's grooves. Second, the fluid, along with the captured contaminates, is removed from the record. It's this second part, and the sole purpose of a RCM, where most machines fail, even the really expensive German ones. This is because they are based on a fundamentally flawed design. This flaw manifests itself in the relatively large surface area of the slot and the resultant need for a motor that can move a lot of air. Recall from your high school chemistry days (if you can remember back that far ;-) ) the Ideal Gas Law, PV=nRT. Basically, with a large surface area opening like the slot found on most RCMs, the quantity of air being drawn through the slot will be high, but the velocity and thus the suction "power" of that air will be quite low. Engineers try to overcome this issue by incorporating felt "lips" along the edges of the slot to try and increase the velocity of the air flowing into the slot. But this creates a new problem. The lack of suction power means multiple passes are required to remove an adequate amount of fluid, but if the record is spun too long with the felt lips in contact with the record, the record surface and the lips become sufficiently dry enough to generate static electricity, charging the record and make it a magnet for airborne particles...thus defeating the whole purpose of cleaning the record in the first place! The problem is this happens before all the contaminates are removed from the record, so you're left with cleaning fluid residue with contaminates in suspension on the record's surface, and a lovely static charge drawing in even more contaminates. Not good.

Here's a theory: The stylus does not sit all the way down into the bottom of the record groove, rather it rides on the sides. As a record is played the stylus will "sweep" any contaminates away, but some with remain and work their way down into the base of the groove and out of the reach of the stylus. It's when these contaminates build up until the groove is filled in to the point where they're contacting the tip of the stylus that we might start hearing their effects. So when fluid is applied that captures these contaminates in suspension, and a machine is used that isn't quite capable of fully removing them, they are pulled up out of the base of the groove and into contact with the sides walls where they dry and leave a residue, thus altering the topography of the walls and affecting how the stylus responds to groove modulations. Result: the record sounds worse after cleaning than it did before.

So it is now clear that the most important aspect of record cleaning, if it is going to be of any benefit, is to get ALL the fluid and contaminates out. This is where the Monks/Loricraft machines differ from their slotted counterparts. Rather than a large slot with lots of surface area and a motor from a vacuum cleaner that moves a lot of air but can't pull a lot of vacuum (think Formula One engines: lots of horsepower but very little torque) they use an extremely tiny orifice attached to a piston style vacuum pump (think big diesel engine in a lory: high on torque so it can pull a lot of weight but doesn't move very fast). This combo creates incredible velocity and suction "power" at the nozzle tip which, when placed in close proximity to the record surface, produces a powerful vortex that is much more capable of effectively removing the fluid and contaminates and leaves a completely dry record in one pass. Thanks to the single pass and the fact that the only thing in contact with the record is a millimeter or two of thread specifically chosen for its anti-static properties, the record is left static free and therefore of little interest to airborne particles floating by.

Even a good machine isn't enough. They'll still leave behind some residue just because of the chemical nature of the cleaning fluids. Surfactants added to help "capture" the contaminates like to bond to the record surface, making them harder to extract. It is essential that any fluid application and removal be followed up with a thorough water rinse. Water is an extremely powerful solvent and will effectively capture the surfactants in suspension and remove them with another pass of the vacuum wand. It is important that only extremely pure water be used, lest more contaminates be deposited on your record. The cleaning system I use comes with water that has been purified to beyond research grade standards.

Speaking of cleaning systems, my drug of choice is the three (or four) step process from Audio Intelligent. Their system includes two (or three) different cleaning fluids, each formulated to target specific types of contaminates, and the afore mentioned ultra pure water. They argue that the chemicals required to capture the full spectrum of contaminates you might find lurking in your record's grooves don't play well together and are therefore at their best when used separately. For extremely dirty records there is a third ultra powerful solution specifically formulated for those beat up thrift store copies of Dark Side of the Mood whose grooves are almost completely filled in with THC. The procedure is to apply the first fluid and let it dwell on the record for 1 to 3 minutes while lightly agitating the fluid with a brush (I hesitate to use the word "scrub" because that implies using pressure...don't do that!). Vacuum, then apply the next fluid and repeat. There is a specific order in which the fluids must be applied, followed up by one or two water rinses. I use separate brushes for each fluid so as to minimize cross contamination. I also bought a cheap platter mat that I employ while cleaning the first side, then remove when cleaning the flip side. That way the machine's platter is never in contact with a dirty record surface. Does it make a difference? I don't know...but it satisfies my OCD side.

A note about ultrasonic machines: these beasts are unique in that they address part one of the record cleaning process, but completely ignore part two...opposite of all other RCM designs. I imagine they are extremely good at breaking loose embedded contaminates...they may even be the best at the job. Problem is, there's no way to thoroughly remove what's left stuck to the record! So you'd need a good extractor (Monks/Loricraft) in addition to the ultrasonic machine to avoid defeating the whole purpose of the exercise. That seems hopelessly impractical to me when the same results can be had with one Loricraft and a bit of light manual labor.

In terms of the difference between the Monks and Loricraft machines, I personally prefer the Loricraft because it does away with the automated fluid application of the Monks. This gives the user more control over the application of fluids (unless Monks makes a machine with the capacity to handle multiple different fluids that I'm not aware of) and results in a much simpler (and considerably cheaper) machine.

So there you have it. My take on record cleaning based on opinion, personal experience, and a smattering of science. It should in no way be interpreted as fact, but is presented here as a basis for discussion. If you made it this far I commend you. Thanks for taking the time to contemplate my drivel.

Kind Regards,
Adam
Last edited by markiteight on 2018-02-26 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
teatime
Active member
Active member
Posts: 167
Joined: 2007-02-11 23:37

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by teatime »

There is no lack of solutions online for ultrasonic vinyl cleaning, at various DYI levels. The one I felt was the most promising was the solution from Vinyl Stack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ukvU3I_AWI. I use their spinner + a regular ultrasonic bath.

Avoiding exotic liquids was one of the reasons I went with ultrasonic. I use a simple 95/5 mix of "cleaned" water and isopropyl alcohol + a minuscule amount of a wetting agent (Triton X-100 - basically a detergent for lab use - absolutely no perfume or moisturizer or similar additives). The latter is required for breaking the surface tension and allow the water to actually get into the grooves.

EDIT: Of course, as mentioned before, I don't let the records self-dry. I use the very cheap (and quite effective) Vinyl Vac! http://www.vinylvac.net/ :)
teatime
Active member
Active member
Posts: 167
Joined: 2007-02-11 23:37

Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by teatime »

These links won't work. They only work for you. You need to create a public link in dropbox (Share->Create link in the web-interface)
Post Reply