How to clean vinyl records

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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by markiteight »

Gah! Sorry 'bout that. I was afraid that would happen. Here are the corrected links, hopefully they work:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yv9j0ldwnyino ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4a4j70t6yit8z ... .flac?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjockm81t2je4 ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h72ldbxjh5vvd ... .flac?dl=0

I'll edit my original post to include the correct links as well.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by Matteo »

Normally, I use a brush for the records with a lot of dust.

For desperate cases, I also use a Project VCS (400 € new):

http://project-audio.com/main.php?prod=vc-s

The construction quality is very low; the clamp broke just after a month.

Previously, I owned also two Nitty Gritty, from basic (350 €) to top version (€ 1.100) and both broke after a couple of years.

I agree with Fredrik: after a cleaning, the record sounds less noisy, but also less musical.

M.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by nmakowsk »

Having lurked this board for years, I am happy to see this topic make a reappearance because I have always felt cleaning records has made huge improvements for my enjoyment of the hobby. A VPI 16.5 cleaning machine was the second upgrade I bought for my Magik lp12 after the Slipsik. Adam shared some great information on his ideas and I have used some of the similar ideas in my cleaning techniques.

I also use AI 3 step fluids and also incorporate the #15 enzyme for heavily soiled records. Also, I have separate brushes for each fluid as to not cross contaminate and do 2 minutes of contact time with no scrubbing just agitation for each fluid used. With every used album I buy I start off with the #15 followed by the ultra pure water rinse. My VPI can leave a record appearing dry in 2-3 revolutions and I do not go beyond that for fear of inducing static which definitely can happen and has happened to me. Now after these two steps of cleaning the record sits in a new rice paper archival sleeve for a minimum of 24 hours to dry fully before being played. I don't want any hydrated gunk getting on the stylus and becoming the black glue visible on microscopes. This "first play" cleans the groove with the stylus, allows me to check for groovewear or sticks, and prepares the groove for the next cleaning set to work even deeper into it. After this first play, I then do the AI 3step series which consists of enzyme/isopropyl alcohol diluted/ultra pure water rinse. After the alcohol step, one can see how the shine has been restored to the surface. Next the record goes back in the archival sleeve for another 24hr period of fully drying before play.

One interesting thing I have found in this is the "first play effect". The record sounds dull and less musical on the first play after being cleaned just like Fredrik and others mention but the second playing seems to snap this musicality back into place for me. On an A/B this could throw things off. I have always thought that its just the stylus going through some residues from the cleaning procedure but Adam brings up a good point that the suction might not be good enough to fully remove junk and it might reside higher in the groove. I like how the new VPI machines have more suction and ultrasonic makes sense but only if you do a dedicated pure water rinse and suction. So I have felt it very worthwhile but the AI fluids get expensive and the whole process is time consuming.
Last edited by nmakowsk on 2018-03-02 03:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by nmakowsk »

The first play effect can be heard on first plays of the #15 and ultra pure water so this makes me think every record sounds better after its initial play with a well calibrated turntable. What do you guys think maybe a smoothing of the groove causing it to track better? But then in my regiment the record is played and cleaned more extensively with 3 step of AI fluids and still there is a first play effect. The second listening reveals more dynamic sound after this second cleaning even. Any ideas? Is the VPI 16.5 under powered to fully remove the emulsified junk/fluid layer which leaves behind a residue? Their new model (cyclone) does sport more suction they say and supposedly all the models higher and much more expensive such as the typhoon probably have better suction as well. The time consuming work does seem to produce good results...
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by markiteight »

nmakowsk wrote:The first play effect can be heard on first plays of the #15 and ultra pure water so this makes me think every record sounds better after its initial play with a well calibrated turntable. What do you guys think maybe a smoothing of the groove causing it to track better? But then in my regiment the record is played and cleaned more extensively with 3 step of AI fluids and still there is a first play effect. The second listening reveals more dynamic sound after this second cleaning even. Any ideas? Is the VPI 16.5 under powered to fully remove the emulsified junk/fluid layer which leaves behind a residue? Their new model (cyclone) does sport more suction they say and supposedly all the models higher and much more expensive such as the typhoon probably have better suction as well. The time consuming work does seem to produce good results...
Would you be willing to post some clips of this "first play effect?" I'll do the same with my Loricraft. I can't say I've experience the same effect but honestly I was never listening for it. I also want to make some clips with a used, dirty record for another data point. I have the perfect candidate too...a well played copy of U2 Joshua Tree I picked up at a thrift store for a dollar. This album is particularly appropriate because I'm headed to Joshua Tree in a week.

Now to your questions. If you feel the need to let the record sit and dry for a while before playing then the RCM is definitely under powered and not doing its job. With the wand style machines the record is bone dry and ready to play the instant the final sweep is completed. I doubt even the most powerful slot style machines with their shopvac motors can come close to the vacuum power of the wand style machines and their vacuum pumps. I blame Bernoulli and those pesky laws of physics. They're always getting in the way.

BTW, kudos on your system description. I bet it's a treat to the ears.

Adam
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by markiteight »

As promised, here's a little U2:

Untouched: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s7avbe451flbo ... .flac?dl=0
First play after cleaning: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0vrytwobvuokr ... .flac?dl=0
Second pass: https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2x2ioub899mc ... .flac?dl=0

Enjoy. I'm off to bed.

Adam
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

markiteight wrote:Gah! Sorry 'bout that. I was afraid that would happen. Here are the corrected links, hopefully they work:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yv9j0ldwnyino ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4a4j70t6yit8z ... .flac?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjockm81t2je4 ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h72ldbxjh5vvd ... .flac?dl=0

I'll edit my original post to include the correct links as well.
Hi markiteight!

I planned on listening to your clips, but for some reason they are unplayable after I've downloaded them. Not your fault, something must be wrong on my end. I'll try to fix it later today.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

markiteight wrote:Gah! Sorry 'bout that. I was afraid that would happen. Here are the corrected links, hopefully they work:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yv9j0ldwnyino ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4a4j70t6yit8z ... .flac?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjockm81t2je4 ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h72ldbxjh5vvd ... .flac?dl=0

I'll edit my original post to include the correct links as well.
OK, now they work for me. I had to first move them to my dropbox account and then download them from there.

The first clip with Thompson appears distorted in the treble compared to the second, which is cleaned. I do agree that the second clip is better. Wow, this might be the first time I experience an undivided positive difference from the cleaning of a vinyl record! The effect is mainly a lowering of distortion in the treble, not unlike before and after you've cleaned the tip of your stylus. I can't really detect any difference in the basic musicality.

Mark it eight!

Clip number 3 and 4 are more difficult for me. Emotionally, I feel it's easier to connect to number 3; the interplay between the instruments, the development of the song and the message. Clip 4 has a bigger focus on tiny buzzes and details that don't help bringing me into the song. Although clip 4 appears cleaner, I experience it as a tiny bit worse musically.

Mark it zero!
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote:Emotionally, I feel it's easier to connect to number 3...
So glad you posted that - I thought it was just me. And I (my inner OCD*) really wanted to prefer the cleaned version, but I also found a better connection with #3 :/

Now I need to go listen to the latest first/second pass after cleaning clips...



* it should be CDO so that the letters are in alphabetical order ;)
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by ThomasOK »

It should be COD, as that tastes better!
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by markiteight »

lejonklou wrote:
markiteight wrote:Gah! Sorry 'bout that. I was afraid that would happen. Here are the corrected links, hopefully they work:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yv9j0ldwnyino ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4a4j70t6yit8z ... .flac?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjockm81t2je4 ... .flac?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h72ldbxjh5vvd ... .flac?dl=0

I'll edit my original post to include the correct links as well.
OK, now they work for me. I had to first move them to my dropbox account and then download them from there.

The first clip with Thompson appears distorted in the treble compared to the second, which is cleaned. I do agree that the second clip is better. Wow, this might be the first time I experience an undivided positive difference from the cleaning of a vinyl record! The effect is mainly a lowering of distortion in the treble, not unlike before and after you've cleaned the tip of your stylus. I can't really detect any difference in the basic musicality.

Mark it eight!

Clip number 3 and 4 are more difficult for me. Emotionally, I feel it's easier to connect to number 3; the interplay between the instruments, the development of the song and the message. Clip 4 has a bigger focus on tiny buzzes and details that don't help bringing me into the song. Although clip 4 appears cleaner, I experience it as a tiny bit worse musically.

Mark it zero!
Interesting! We're in agreement with the Thompson Twins track. I struggled to hear any appreciable difference between the two. I sent the track to several friends (all of whom are not practicing tunedemmers) and they didn't hear much between them either. There are some songs on this record that my cartridge struggles to track, especially on the inner grooves. This manifests itself as distortion on sibilants, which is reduced but not eliminated after cleaning.

On 3 and 4 I'm hearing something different. On 3 I find my ear focusing on an individual instrument and listening to how it interacts with the others. On 4 it's more like my ears "relax" and follow the complex interplay between all the instruments at once, rather than zeroing in one at a time. To use a lame analogy: 3 is like standing on a mountaintop and observing the scenery through binoculars. With 4, I put the binoculars away and just enjoyed the view. This verbal description makes it sound like the difference was night and day. It wasn't. It took a lot of backing and forthing before I zoned in on what my ears were perceiving.

"Yeah, well, 'ya know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

Now Walter, before you pull your pistol on me, have you had a chance to compare the U2 tracks? I haven't, other than when I was making the recordings. Despite there being about 2 hours between capturing tracks 1 and 2, what I thought I heard was...interesting.

I would like to state for the record that I'm not biased in favor of RCMs FTW. On the contrary. As great a piece of engineering as the Loricraft is, and as much fun it is to play with, it's also really expensive! If the verdict falls against it, that means I can sell it on and use the money toward something more musically significant...like a pair of speakers.

They really tie the room together.

Adam
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by ThomasOK »

I'm right there with Fredrik, I also find the second track more musical (tuneful) than the first but the third more musical than the fourth. I find it easier to get into the third track and it moves me more. I am very familiar with that track being a fan of Loreena McKennitt and having most of her stuff on vinyl. Indeed, I used one of her records at the last RMAF.

I haven't listened to the others yet but this whole thread has me wondering as to what might be going on, especially after reading about the second play vs. the first play after record cleaning. The playback of an LP record is in some ways similar to the flight of a bumble bee - it should be impossible. Because of the very tiny contact patch of the stylus tip on the groove the pressure on the groove wall is actually measured in tons per square inch! I have heard estimates ranging from 2.5 tons up to 26 tons, but one of the more recent writings put it at nearly 4 tons per square inch. It also noted that this caused the vinyl to reach 500° F, enough to temporarily melt the vinyl. All I have read, and the evidence of our ears, is that the vinyl snaps back to shape due to its elasticity and the very short time and small area that reaches this temperature.

But here is where an interesting idea comes to mind. You can also find arguments both ways as to whether there are pressing lubricants. It is certainly true that they don't spray PAM on the stampers. ;-) But in talking to vinyl cleaning formulators I have been informed that there are mold release compounds that are in the vinyl pucks that are pressed. In the early days it was mainly just a little bit of vegetable oil in with the vinyl, possibly now it is more sophisticated. This small amount of lubricant is brought to the surface by the heat and pressure of pressing the record and allow the vinyl to separate easily from the metal stamper. So this is one of the things you are cleaning out of the groove when a record is cleaned - indeed some pre-cleaners, like the AI #15 are supposed to be particularly good at cleaning this stuff off. Most of this is pretty much agreed upon and it is interesting that the AI cleansers that markiteight and nmakowsk both use consist of a multiple enzyme first step for organic compounds, a detergent/alcohol cleanser for other contaminants and an ultra-pure water rinse. I have not done any real A/B comparisons for tune method such as we are doing here but I can tell you that the cleaning sounds worse without the water rinse and that a steam cleaning (once the cool new thing) made things worse but was rectified by the pure water rinse.

Here is where some wild conjecture comes in. One of the writings I have read on this indicates that the pressure and heat generated by playing the record could bring a tiny amount of lubricant, which is mixed in with the vinyl, back to the surface. So what if the record actually works best and sounds most musical with a tiny bit of this lubricant on the groove walls? Possibly cleaning it all away could increase friction enough to slightly change the playback for the worse despite the removal of the contaminants that block some information and cause noise. If this is the case it might also be possible that playing the record a time or two re-coats the groove with a tiny amount of this lubricant which in turn allows the stylus to follow the groove more properly. Maybe a thoroughly cleaned groove is causing too much friction (or possibly stiction) and messing up the timing slightly in a way that a barely lubricated groove does not? This could explain the "first play effect" mentioned above. It could also relate to a record sounding better after a couple of plays as the excess and contaminants are cleared out by the stylus but some lubricant is left behind.

Again, this is all just extrapolating several pieces of information into what might be a questionable theory. But it could also explain what is going on in and some of the results we hear. Just food for thought!
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2018-03-01 02:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by tokenbrit »

That sounds plausible, and hopeful... From Adam's latest clips U2-2 came together better than U2-1 & compared favourably with U2-0 thanks to reduced noise/distortion. It might be that less is more when it comes to cleaning LPs and that we don't want them squeaky clean.
I think that was my issue with #4 vs #3 - to tweak the top of the mountain binoculars analogy, the cleaned track (#4) reminded me of a photo that had been over-sharpened and unnatural looking (sounding) whereas the original track (#3) was a good photo that barely needed any processing.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by jewa »

Hi Adam,

I use a Keith Monks, and are on my second batch of cleaning fluid, but still trying things out. The first one I got isn't available anymore so I am looking for the best one.

I have been looking on the Audio Intelligent 3 stage cleaning system. Can you describe exactly you cleaning process, and the exact fluid. They have some different ones on their website.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by ThomasOK »

I'm not Adam but I can tell you that the cleaning fluids he and nmakowsk uses are the Ultimate Cleaning Kit including Ultra-Pure Water which they sell as a set at $79.00 for a set of 32oz bottles. This 3 step process uses:
1) Enzymatic Formula
2) Super Cleaner, a detergent/alcohol based cleaner
3) Ultra-Pure Water rinse

The kit saves you $15 over buying them separately. You can also get the kit with Premium Archivist instead of Super Cleaner if you are cleaning 78s or don't want alcohol in your cleaning solution.

You need to use separate brushes for each step as the alcohol in the super cleaner will kill the enzymes in the Enzymatic formula and you obviously want the brush for the Ultra Pure water to be as pure as possible.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by markiteight »

jewa wrote:Hi Adam,

I use a Keith Monks, and are on my second batch of cleaning fluid, but still trying things out. The first one I got isn't available anymore so I am looking for the best one.

I have been looking on the Audio Intelligent 3 stage cleaning system. Can you describe exactly you cleaning process, and the exact fluid. They have some different ones on their website.

Thanks in advance!
Hi Jewa,

Thomas is correct on the Ultimate Cleaning Kit, although his post gave me a bit of sticker shock. Their prices have gone up!

I also discovered, after I made the first two batches of recordings but before I started in on the U2 record, a bottle of Premium Record Cleaner Nr. 15 I forgot I had. This is the additional pre-soak step I mentioned in my first post and nmakowsk discusses as well. So the first two albums were cleaned with the three step process at approximately one minute dwell times. The U2 album got a much more extensive treatment: 4 step process with 2x 3 minute dwell times for the first three steps, and 3x 1 minute dwell for the water rinse. It took over an hour to clean the entire record!

I use the Mobile Fidelity record brushes primarily because they, along with the AI fluids, are what came with my RCM when I bought it. I like them though. They have lots of surface area and the felt pads are great for agitating the fluid. For the agitation I use short, quick back-and-forth motions with the brush in one hand while slowly spinning the record with the other hand. During the vacuum sweep I let the brush lightly rest on the record to keep the fluid evenly distributed and prevent it from drying - a definite no-no. This is where the Mo-Fi brushes are at a disadvantage. Their large surface area and fluid soaked fibers create a lot of drag on the record surface and can easily slow down the platter, even with a light touch. I usually tip the brush so only the leading or trailing edge is contacting the record to reduce the drag.

I picked up three Misto olive oil sprayers like this: https://www.amazon.com/Misto-Brushed-Al ... misto&th=1 which makes it easy to get an even distribution of fluid onto the record surface while using less product. As you know these machines spin the record pretty fast (80 rpm in the case of the Loricrafts) so if you try to pour the fluid onto the record directly from the bottle it just flings the fluid all over the machine, walls, carpet, and you...anywhere but where you want it. The sprayers eliminate this issue. I also use color coded adhesive tape on the spray bottles and brushes to keep track of which is which.

I hope that helps.

Adam
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by ThomasOK »

markiteight wrote:As promised, here's a little U2:

Untouched: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s7avbe451flbo ... .flac?dl=0
First play after cleaning: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0vrytwobvuokr ... .flac?dl=0
Second pass: https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2x2ioub899mc ... .flac?dl=0

Enjoy. I'm off to bed.

Adam
Well, I'm having a harder time with this one. Overall, number 1 is moving me the most with a more solid, propelling rhythm. But I do find the vocals a little more enjoyable on 2 - maybe just a bit too intense on 1. I didn't like the untouched U2 as well as either of the other two. Interesting.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by markiteight »

ThomasOK wrote:I'm right there with Fredrik, I also find the second track more musical (tuneful) than the first but the third more musical than the fourth. I find it easier to get into the fourth track and it moves me more. I am very familiar with that track being a fan of Loreena McKennitt and having most of her stuff on vinyl. Indeed, I used one of her records at the last RMAF.
Hi Thomas, I assume you meant "third track and it moves me more." Curious as to why I heard Loreena McKennitt differently from those who have replied so far, I just took another listen. Lo and behold, I'm not hearing what I did before...the binocular analogy isn't there! Instead I get an emotional response from 3 that is absent with 4. Okay then. My original assessment was based on listening to the original recordings, not the files uploaded to Dropbox, so I wondered if something was lost in the process of uploading. There wasn't, but by going back to the originals I discovered the discrepancy. I actually made three recordings, with the third trading Blacks for the Silvers used in the first two. I didn't mention or include the third clip because it's off topic. It was THAT comparison I was referencing. Apparently I need to start taking notes!
ThomasOK wrote:I haven't listened to the others yet but this whole thread has me wondering as to what might be going on, especially after reading about the second play vs. the first play after record cleaning. The playback of an LP record is in some ways similar to the flight of a bumble bee - it should be impossible. Because of the very tiny contact patch of the stylus tip on the groove the pressure on the groove wall is actually measured in tons per square inch! I have heard estimates ranging from 2.5 tons up to 26 tons, but one of the more recent writings put it at nearly 4 tons per square inch. It also noted that this caused the vinyl to reach 500° F, enough to temporarily melt the vinyl. All I have read, and the evidence of our ears, is that the vinyl snaps back to shape due to its elasticity and the very short time and small area that reaches this temperature.

But here is where an interesting idea comes to mind. You can also find arguments both ways as to whether there are pressing lubricants. It is certainly true that they don't spray PAM on the stampers. ;-) But in talking to vinyl cleaning formulators I have been informed that there are mold release compounds that are in the vinyl pucks that are pressed. In the early days it was mainly just a little bit of vegetable oil in with the vinyl, possibly now it is more sophisticated. This small amount of lubricant is brought to the surface by the heat and pressure of pressing the record and allow the vinyl to separate easily from the metal stamper. So this is one of the things you are cleaning out of the groove when a record is cleaned - indeed some pre-cleaners, like the AI #15 are supposed to be particularly good at cleaning this stuff off. Most of this is pretty much agreed upon and it is interesting that the AI cleansers that markiteight and nmakowsk both use consist of a multiple enzyme first step for organic compounds, a detergent/alcohol cleanser for other contaminants and an ultra-pure water rinse. I have not done any real A/B comparisons for tune method such as we are doing here but I can tell you that the cleaning sounds worse without the water rinse and that a steam cleaning (once the cool new thing) made things worse but was rectified by the pure water rinse.

Here is where some wild conjecture comes in. One of the writings I have read on this indicates that the pressure and heat generated by playing the record could bring a tiny amount of lubricant, which is mixed in with the vinyl, back to the surface. So what if the record actually works best and sounds most musical with a tiny bit of this lubricant on the groove walls? Possibly cleaning it all away could increase friction enough to slightly change the playback for the worse despite the removal of the contaminants that block some information and cause noise. If this is the case it might also be possible that playing the record a time or two re-coats the groove with a tiny amount of this lubricant which in turn allows the stylus to follow the groove more properly. Maybe a thoroughly cleaned groove is causing too much friction (or possibly stiction) and messing up the timing slightly in a way that a barely lubricated groove does not? This could explain the "first play effect" mentioned above. It could also relate to a record sounding better after a couple of plays as the excess and contaminants are cleared out by the stylus but some lubricant is left behind.

Again, this is all just extrapolating several pieces of information into what might be a questionable theory. But it could also explain what is going on in and some of the results we hear. Just food for thought!
I've heard the same thing about the incredible forces the record is subject to as the stylus courses past and the heat generated as a result. The theories I've read talk about contaminates getting embedded into the vinyl during the brief instant it's in a fluid state, but this is the first I've heard about oils leeching out from the same cause. Interesting! Raises a lot of questions. If friction is indeed the variable here, I'm curious if anyone has tried the various record surface coatings that claim to reduce friction. I'm not interested in trying them myself because they cause more problems then they potentially solve...just curious if they've been evaluated in a TuneDem context. How does static charge play into all this? We know demagnetizing a record provides positive benefits, what influence does eliminating the static charge have, other than reducing the attraction of airborne contaminants? Those airborne contaminants span a broad spectrum of "stuff" and each one will have a different friction coefficient. Some will be more "sticky" and others will be "slick." FWIW, Audio Intelligent's instructions refer to the mold release compounds as "sticky." That probably means they capture and hold onto contaminates, rather than a description of their effect on mechanical drag. I don't think stiction is a factor as the is an external force (the motor) providing the motion. I imagine the net effect of contaminates on a stylus traveling through a plastic groove will vary a lot, and no two records will be the same.

*sigh* More questions than answers.


TTFN,
Adam
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by ThomasOK »

You’re right, I meant third. I corrected it in the original post.

Yes, there do seem to be more questions than answers, something which seems to happen whenever you think you understand what is going on in this hobby/pastime/profession. Another example in relation to this is your above statement “We know demagnetizing a record provides positive benefits...”. Do we for sure? When Fredrik came here several years ago for the North American unveiling of the Sagatun preamps I had him over to my house. This was active ATC days. We listened to several different pieces of music and one piece was a little strident. I demagnetized it and all agreed it was more musical. But then I played another piece of music which sounded pretty good and I went ahead and demagnetized it too. This time we all felt the guitar sounded a little off compared to before the demagnetization. This was certainly opposite to my “expectation bias” but it is what all three listeners heard. I have no real explanation.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote:Another example in relation to this is your above statement “We know demagnetizing a record provides positive benefits...”. Do we for sure? When Fredrik came here several years ago for the North American unveiling of the Sagatun preamps I had him over to my house. This was active ATC days. We listened to several different pieces of music and one piece was a little strident. I demagnetized it and all agreed it was more musical. But then I played another piece of music which sounded pretty good and I went ahead and demagnetized it too. This time we all felt the guitar sounded a little off compared to before the demagnetization. This was certainly opposite to my “expectation bias” but it is what all three listeners heard. I have no real explanation.
I remember that occasion.

I bought a high power bulk eraser for myself during the demag discussion on this forum. My initial impression was that it improved performance, but when I demonstrated it to two other listeners, we all felt, much to my surprise, that the record became worse. The music seemed to flatten a bit and loose energy. Another comparison confirmed this impression and then I gave up. It just felt too random.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by PaulC »

Whenever I have HiFi related a question I know I can find discussion on this forum that can guide me in a good direction and this thread is no exception! I'm thinking a lot at the moment about how to maintain my record collection how record cleaning fits into all of that. I think the idea that the stylus is itself the best record cleaner makes intuitive sense and that using the Linn recommended green stylus paper may be the smartest way forward.

Regarding the discussion touching on what happens as the stylus is moving through the groove I have some thoughts that may be of value to the discussion. I have to say I have some doubts as to whether the vinyl does experience brief periods of 'micro-softening' every time the stylus moves through the groove. PVC has a poor thermal stability, and even though it is filled with thermal stabilisers to prevent serious degradation during a thermal treatment, I would anticipate that repeated micro-heating events over repeated plays would ultimately result in the exhaustion of thermal stabiliser at the groove surface and consequently increased risk of thermal degradation of the groove surface itself. Also, even if we assume that these micro-heating events are so brief that we would need to play an lp 10 000 times before we notice any serious material degradation, I can't help thinking that a much smaller number of micro-heating events would permanently deform the groove. Once PVC has reached about 82 degrees celsius it begins to pass through its 'glass transition temperature', which is the temperature at which the very long 'spagetti-like' molecular chains that the plastic is made up of can begin to move freely. PVC is mostly non-crystalline, so its softening behaviour is mostly determined by its 'glass transition temperature' and not its melting temperature (which is the temperature at which the small crystalline component melts, and which is significantly higher).

Regarding the idea that additives migrate within the PVC towards the groove surface, I would suggest that a new lp record might 'leak' some additives that originate in the plastic at that surface. In fact this may be why new lp's need a couple of plays, since there is likely some additive sitting on the groove surface on a new lp. As far as I know the only additives present in a vinyl record made of PVC are stabilisers, pigments and possibly lubricants. Importantly, the PVC in an lp is 'rigid' and not 'plasticised' and doesn't contain plasticiser. In rigid PVC the additives are essentially 'locked in' and unable to move within the plastic towards the groove surface. That means that once the additives that are at the groove surface are removed by the stylus, no more additives will appear at that surface. Of course, one could argue that 'micro-softening' events would allow additives to migrate to the groove surface. However, if that is the case, then we should also expect the groove surface to itself permanently deform during those 'micro-softening' events because the plastic molecules need to move to allow the additives to get out. Finally, any hypotheses regarding elasticity and 'memory' in softened plastic, and the groove surface potentially 'bouncing back into shape' need to be tempered with the fact that plastics are not elastic, but rather viscoelastic, which means they have both viscous and elastic properties. Crucially, under repeated micro-softening events, the constant weight of the stylus sitting in the groove would cause the groove to distend over time.

The bigger discussion when it comes to record cleaning of course is in relation to vinyl's physical and chemical resistance to 'treatment'. Again, maybe the safest cleaner is the stylus since I would presume that different contaminants require different treatments. This is no straight forward matter. A single fingerprint for example contains a mixture of fats, proteins, and salts, all of which I presume would require a unique chemical treatment...
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by Tendaberry »

I would definitely recommend a record cleaning machine. I waited a long time berore I bought one and now I couldn't live without it. Even brand new records sound better after they have been cleaned.
If you don't want to spend too much, a good starting point is the new Okki Nokki One, which is much more silent than the old version:
https://www.green-vinyl.com/en/okki-nok ... white.html
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by Chet »

Hi All,
Having read most of this thread, I have a very simple (hope!) query. Does anyone recommend a particular brush to use to wipe the most obvious layer of dust by hand off a record?
I think I will not bother with cleaning fluids or machines.
Cheers.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by springwood64 »

Chet wrote: 2020-08-26 13:54 Hi All,
Having read most of this thread, I have a very simple (hope!) query. Does anyone recommend a particular brush to use to wipe the most obvious layer of dust by hand off a record?
I think I will not bother with cleaning fluids or machines.
Cheers.
I've been using this https://www.audio-technica.com/en-gb/ca ... Y0QAvD_BwE

I bought one in 1982 (I can't remember the model name), and it fell apart in 2012 or thereabouts. When I bought it I asked the guy in the shop how long it would last. He gave me a withering look and snorted "Forever!". Clearly an exaggeration :)

So I am now on my second.

I use the brush pretty well every time I play a side.
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Re: How to clean vinyl records

Post by FairPlayMotty »

The same record brush can be bought on Aliexpress for around £4. Some vinyl accessories on there bring back memories from the early 80s (sorbothane record cleaning roller - I had one).
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