New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by ThomasOK »

matthias wrote:Two questions for Thomas or other experts:

Is it now possible to have TWO sources with Klimax DS: Ethernet AND Urika2 ?

Are different gain settings possible with Urika2?

Thanks

Matt
Yes, the Urika Ii will show up as another source.

There are different gain and loading capabilities on the Urika II but I don't know what settings are included. It might have been covered in a technical webinar but due to traffic problems I missed the beginning of it. Currently Linn has not published technical information on the dealer portal.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by ThomasOK »

Here is the most complete information I have found on the Urika II so far. In the video conference Linn had for the dealers they went into a fair bit of detail on how the Urika II works and repeatedly referred to it as a hybrid MC phono stage.

The block diagram shows that the first thing the signal from the cartridge sees is the input loading. There are choices for gain, input resistance and input capacitance that are selected through Konfig and actuated via relays. Preset loadings are available for a number of Linn and other cartridges and more will be added in the future but individual settings can be adjusted for the cartridge of your choice.

The next stage is an analog gain stage that does two things, both designed to create a signal the ADC chips are comfortable working with. It increases the gain significantly so that it keeps the signal above the noise floor of the ADCs and it applies the high-frequency part of the RIAA curve to lower the level of the highs and give the ADCs more headroom.

The stage after that is the ADCs. This stage uses two stereo ADC chips, one per channel (unlike the KDSM units that use one for both channels) which gives a 3dB improvement in signal to noise ratio.

The stage after that has additional gain, the low frequency part of the RIAA equalization and a subsonic or rumble filter. This is all implemented in a FPGA and Linn has confirmed that this can be reprogrammed via Konfig as Linn finds additional ways to improve things. Linn also use the FPGA to make the RIAA curve more accurate by measuring any derivations from the correct curve on each individual Urika II and correcting it here.

The resulting signal is sent out as an ExaktLink stream to any ExaktLink enabled master device. The only thing the Urika II gets from the ExaktLink master unit (a DS or DSM, obviously preferably with Katalyst) is the clock signal that governs all the digital circuitry, just as it does for Exakt speakers or Exaktboxes.

The Urika II can be used with any DS or DSM with ExaktLink connectors although the KDS or KDSM with Katalyst are the most obvious candidates. That unit is then the DAC and analog output stage for the Urika II. Theoretically, I suppose it is possible that Linn could come out with a separate box that didn't have the streaming hardware, but it would need to have the analog output stage, DACs, ExaktLink hardware and network interface for Konfig so I don't really see where there would be much that could be removed. So in Linn's current estimation the best LP12 is a $48,640 product that includes a KDS/3 as the DAC/output stage and just happens to have digital streaming as a side benefit. This then can use the built in DVC or analog preamp(s) of your choice to feed the amplifiers/speakers of your choice. It will be interesting to hear how it all works.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by matthias »

Thomas,
thank you for all the details, very interesting.
Do you know which chips they use for the ADC?

Matt
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by FangfossFlyer »

I spent a pleasant evening at The Sound Organisation (York) and with two reps from Linn yesterday evening when the new Lingo 4 and Urika II were demoed. – thanks guys and to all who attended.

My initial impressions after listening to comparative Linn “tune dem” is that Linn has made some pleasing strides forward:

Lingo 4:

This is just not a Lingo 3+ but a complete new design. I was mighty impressed on hearing it and straight away the improvement over the Lingo 3 was apparent with more smoothness and, dare I say it, ‘music’. It reminded me of when I first heard the Radikal compared to my, then, Lingo 2.

I am an Radikal owner but the Lingo 4 must come mighty close to it so I expect Linn has a real success on their hands here with the Lingo 4.

If I were still a Lingo user I would have bought one there and then!

One interesting, if somewhat surprising, comment was that the Lingo 3’s ‘crystal oscillator’ (or something similar??) drifts off ‘ideal’ spec after about 15 minutes of playing – I hasten to add that Linn has fixed any such issues with the Lingo 4. I am sure someone from Linn will correct me on this if I misunderstood.

Urika II:
Once again this is not just a Urika + but a complete new design including an ADC and RIAA alignment with significant opportunities in the digital domain etc. etc.

My first impressions are that Linn has made a significant improvement over the Urika I which I have found to be a bit on the dry and clinical side to date, hence why I am a non Urika user. But the new Urika II has opened my eyes and ears to what Linn is doing. Put simply, for me, it has brought the ‘soul’ to the music that was missing with the Urika I. ‘Soul’ is a difficult thing to define but it was more akin to what I get out of my existing phono stage and sounded ‘real’ to me and non-clinical which is something I found was lacking with the Urika I.

For those with an existing Exakt system I would think the Urika II is almost an instant purchase (cash permitting of course).

To use it one needs an Exakt compliant ‘box’ such as a DS or DSM apparently (you can tell I am not familiar with these things). Linn said they will continue to offer the Urika I alongside the Urika II to those who do not have such a compatible system.

What would be really interesting and telling for me would be a full Urika II Exakt system at home for an extended dem to really hear the system with my music. Whether I would replace all my downstream amps, interconnects, racks & shelves, speakers I am not sure but it did make me think of such again but then what would I do with the space where my current boxes sit!

So, for me, a definite improvement over the Urika I and with exciting possibilities for the future through software optimisations etc.

The only embarrassing down side for Linn was that we had several 1 second drop outs when playing which may have been down to the Exakt system or network bandwidth but I assume this is not typical of an Exakt system.

Overall, I would say that Linn continues to move forward with the LP12 and have made some pleasing improvements in the Lingo and also with their philosophy and Exakt architecture with the Urika II which I much preferred over the Urika I and presented itself very well with ‘soul’.

Richard
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by mrco99 »

Thanks for sharing and your impressions, Richard!

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by ThomasOK »

Ah, there we have it! The last bastion of freedom from network dropouts eliminated. ;-)

One of the things we often kid about at the store, where we have to deal with network dropouts of customers as well as our own systems, is that you can drop your stylus in the groove and the system just works. Maybe not in the future?

Interesting report, thanks.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by Lake Jorgen »

If the Urika II brings the best out of the LP12, there is only need for one flagship LP12 in the world. Linn can start selling "vinyl" for download, played on a perfectly set up LP12 and recorded by the Urika II. Neither is there any need for more than one great pressing of any album, and it only needs to be played once, before being sold on as a digital file. However, a vinyl record can hardly be a better source for a digital file than the actual master tape. In theory, at least, the Urika II makes the LP12 obsolete. Isn´t it ironic?

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by FangfossFlyer »

Lake,
I love it!
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by nmakowsk »

If Linn sold digital files of a song that was recorded from an LP12 wouldn't that be similar to selling a bootleg tape of a recording or an old cassette mix tape? This post sounds like you don't like vinyl much which is fine. After 40 years Linn doesn't feel the LP12 is obsolete so why should anyone feel that way? Obviously for Linn the future is analog and digital. For longevity, these records will likely outlast all master tapes and whatever digital computers/technology you would need to actually "play" a file. Even if a master tape sounds better than vinyl that thing is locked away and who owns a console or rights to play a mastertape anyways. Maybe I just don't understand your point but it just sounds a bit trollish to me. When there is no electricity we will have to convert to Victrola type resonators but the music will still be there. Owell to each their own...
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by Lake Jorgen »

I love vinyl. And I love my Klimax LP12 ;-) Sorry for my somewhat theoretical thoughts. My post was just me contemplating the fact (and irony) that the best analogue playback Linn now offers, is a digital one, and what that – in theory – could imply. Of course, there would be loads of practical and legal issues with copyrights etc for Linn to actually go ahead with what I suggested. But, come to think of it, perhaps not more so than what audiophile vinyl ventures like Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab and others already do today. Don´t think it will happen, though.

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

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I took Lake's post as tongue in cheek and found it quite amusing.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote:I took Lake's post as tongue in cheek and found it quite amusing.
Same here :)
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by nmakowsk »

ha well I guess that irony somehow flew over my head on that post. My apologies. The fact that the Urika2 needs a DS machine to plug into is rather interesting and utterly expensive as Tom pointed out. This begs a question then can one just use a magik level DS for this purpose? What would be the cheapest way to use it? One of my few audio friends plugs a Klimax LP12 into his Exakt 350(katalyst) system and to me somehow the lp12 feels slightly held back compared to DS files played. Personally, some emotion might be lacking in favor of a slightly more detailed presentation. In some comparisons the LP12 is only slightly better but overall it is still the better source to the Klimax DS portion of the system in my opinion. Unfortunately, records don't seem to be his main focus nowadays and he rarely uses the lp12 maybe because of convenience or other reasons. Nonetheless I am fortunate to have an audio friend and his system is quite enjoyable. This new upgrade option is probably perfect for him and I hope he upgrades at some point because for pure Exakt I bet it will improve the interface over the Urika 1. Linn seems to do their homework :)
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by matthias »

nmakowsk wrote:The fact that the Urika2 needs a DS machine to plug into is rather interesting and utterly expensive as Tom pointed out.
Yes, it is expensive when you do not need a streamer.
But you can save money when you have a DS and want the Urika2 as a second source. In this case you do not need a DSM like with Urika1.

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by ThomasOK »

It is possible to plug the Urika 2 into any DS or DSM with ExaktLink connections on it. So, yes, a Majik DS with ExaktLink would work, but would it be worth it? It is important to realize that the signal coming out of the Urika still gets additional processing in the DS/DSM and also is sent the clock signal that governs the operation of the digital parts of the Urika 2. As such the lesser the unit it is plugged into the less musical the result would be. I suspect the new Akurate DS/DSM with Katalyst would probably be the starting point with the KDS/Katalyst units still being better. Everything makes a difference - even in the digital domain (or is that especially in the digital domain?).
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by HansW »

Thomas!
The Urika II has been out for a while now. You must have heard it. What is your (initial?) view?

Best regards

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by ThomasOK »

Actually I haven't heard one and have no idea how soon I will. We are actually having a Linn musical evening tonight in two parts: first, an LP12 45th anniversary session and second, a Linn Lounge. However Linn didn't send a Urika II here for the event and we don't have a demo unit. To be honest, although we have a fair number of customers with Klimax LP12s, very few have Klimax streamers with ExaktLink.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by HansW »

That is surprising. The Stockholm retailer had a demo-ex within a week of the anouncement and their first customers receuved theirs about a week after that.
I will need to be patient and keep on looking forward to your eventual review.

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

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ThomasOK wrote:Actually I haven't heard one and have no idea how soon I will. We are actually having a Linn musical evening tonight in two parts: first, an LP12 45th anniversary session and second, a Linn Lounge. However Linn didn't send a Urika II ...
Did the musical evening include the Lingo 4?
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by ThomasOK »

tokenbrit wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:Actually I haven't heard one and have no idea how soon I will. We are actually having a Linn musical evening tonight in two parts: first, an LP12 45th anniversary session and second, a Linn Lounge. However Linn didn't send a Urika II ...
Did the musical evening include the Lingo 4?
No, unfortunately not. However, I will be installing a Lingo 4 on Saturday so I hope to have time to at least get a little feel for the perfromance.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote: .. I will be installing a Lingo 4 on Saturday so I hope to have time to at least get a little feel for the perfromance.
As an upgrade (from?) or as a new build? Hope you get a little feel and to find out that it is the beginning of a beautiful "perfromance" :)
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by ThomasOK »

tokenbrit wrote:
ThomasOK wrote: .. I will be installing a Lingo 4 on Saturday so I hope to have time to at least get a little feel for the perfromance.
As an upgrade (from?) or as a new build? Hope you get a little feel and to find out that it is the beginning of a beautiful "perfromance" :)
Actually in this case it is to replace a Lingo 3 that was installed less than 2 weeks before the Lingo 4 was announced. Since Linn gave us no advanced notice of the Lingo 4 coming we had no way of informing the customer it was imminent. When he heard about it he was understandably upset but we assured him we would take care of him and Linn has promised to back us up on it.

Since it has a Lingo 3 in it now I am hoping to get a chance to listen to it before and after the surgery. Since it is being installed on a Saturday, normally our busiest day, and the customer has a bit of a drive to get here, I'm not sure what time I will have before or after. I will also have to develop torques for the new motor since it is my first install and a different mounting setup than any of the other motors.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote:Since it has a Lingo 3 in it now I am hoping to get a chance to listen to it before and after the surgery. Since it is being installed on a Saturday, normally our busiest day, and the customer has a bit of a drive to get here...
Fingers crossed the customer is as interested in the 3v4 A-B as we are, and wants to hear for themselves before their drive back.
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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by HansW »

Hi ThomasOK,

Have you had a chance to hear the Ulrika2 yet and form a view?

Could you share your conclusions?

Best regards

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Re: New LP12 Urika II phonostage and Lingo 4

Post by HansW »

There seems to be very little reported on the sound of the Urika 2 here, on the Linn Forum or any other forum I visit. Does anyone understand why? Usually such a seemingly significant product release generates a lot if comment. Isn’t it selling? My local dealer says they have sold quite a few (my impression is that they have some loyal customers who buy any Linn upgrade on trust).

Best regards
Hans
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