Split from "What do you think of this? (Keel copy)" /Az

Charlie1 wrote:

I want to hear what is on the record not just a musical tune.

I think maybe he hasn't realised the full implications of 'a musical tune', as he puts it. Some people seem to think tunefulness is just a means of better producing melody. I don't think they fully realise that it has wider implications on our understanding and enjoyment of the music itself.

He soon will though! As soon as he gets his LP12 and "Sole" up and running he'll hear far more detail and enjoy his music more.

I thought getting a new product to market at the right price would be difficult enough, but I never thought I'd come across a such a reluctance to even give us a chance. Do detect a little audio snobbery here and on the Linn forum?

Whilst you can't please all people all of the time, I thought we'd at least be commended for giving it a damn good try. I guess time will tell? I personally found the Sole to be superior to the standard Linn sub-chassis at detail retrieval, imaging and musicality. If I had not, I would not have wasted my time and money in starting a small business in order to produce them.

John R

JohnR wrote:I thought getting a new product to market at the right price would be difficult enough, but I never thought I'd come across a such a reluctance to even give us a chance. Do detect a little audio snobbery here and on the Linn forum?

Whilst you can't please all people all of the time, I thought we'd at least be commended for giving it a damn good try. I guess time will tell? I personally found the Sole to be superior to the standard Linn sub-chassis at detail retrieval, imaging and musicality. If I had not, I would not have wasted my time and money in starting a small business in order to produce them.

Welcome to the forum John. Personally, I don't have any issue with the Sole at all, only the Keel copies (as you know :oops:). If it transpires that the Sole is better than the standard sub-chassis, using the Tune Method, then that's good enough for me and would be quite an achievement. I really do hope that it does prove to be the case as the Sole is priced at an affordable amount and could potentially be a much valued upgrade for many LP12 owners.

I think you're not helped by all those that have gone before you who have developed their products without using the Tune Method or having any appreciation for musicality. There appear to be all kinds of ways to improve the sound of the LP12, but very few that preserve or even enhance the music itself. I think many LP12 owners/dealers, whilst still curious to hear mods such as those by the Funk Firm, are pretty tired of the same old thing happening - better sound, but worse music.

Hope to hear that the Sole bucks the trend :D ! All the best John.

JohnR wrote: Do I detect a little audio snobbery here and on the Linn forum? (...) I personally found the Sole to be superior to the standard Linn sub-chassis at detail retrieval, imaging and musicality.

Well, I don't even read the Linn forum so I can't speak for it. Here on the Lejonklou forum there is one simple rule (as you might have noticed): We evaluate performance with the tune-method and the tune-method only. This does not mean that discussions about "imaging", "detail" and so forth are strictly banned. But here, all those factors are secondary to the musicality.

Does this make us "snobs"? I'll leave that for you to decide. ;)

Regards and welcome!

Charlie1 & Azazello.
Thank you for your warm welcome, it is a pleasure to be here honestly ! I think you will be hearing a little more about the abilities of the Sole quite soon.

JohnR

Well what shall I say, after having had another nasty experience with a "non LP12 loving Linn retailer" (my LP12 sounded completely different but the thing that was killing me was that it did not bounce as it should and the musical result was... terrible!!...the music fell into completely apart into pieces...timing was gone and the sound was like glued to my Kabers) and that has installed the Sole (with new 3 layer armboard and Trampolin II), I took the opportunity to "dive" into LP12 suspension setting this Saturday and after swapping springs and grommets in a few of the possible permutations I found the perfect bounce again... in the same time I removed the lid on the Trampolin II. Reassembly and reconnecting my "baby".
I was (and actually I still am) completely gobsmacked by my LP12's performance now. I don't want to repeat my impressions of the Sole and the Plattamat in this forum (if your interested I have posted on Linn's forum as well as on pink fish) again, but in terms of tune dem all the upgrades (armboard, Sole, TrampolinII + Plattamat) installed deliver a substantial upgrade (at least for my ears!!)
I would really wonder what Frederik's impression would be....

Regards from so(u)led Switzerland
Marco

Nice to hear you are happy, mjuon!

I certainly won't rule out the Sole, the plattamat or anything else that I haven't listened to. But the descriptions of how these upgrades sound do make me more or less interested.

I read your review on pink fish and although you do mention timing, I generally associate 'width of soundstage' and 'timbre of instruments' with downgrades rather than upgrades. Please note that with this I mean no offence to you or the products you are reviewing! Please let me explain:

In the 90's I worked for a Linn retailer and back then it was common to get visits from local enthusiasts who had invented a new way to improve the LP12. It was everything from new screws to ground wires, mains filtering or some damping applied at the right spot.

After a while we noticed that the pattern of these claims and the following demonstrations were always the same: The enthusiast would say he had improved his LP12 by a new tweak, we would ask what it sounded like and the answer would be "more detail", "bigger soundstage", "blacker blacks", "increased dynamics", "richer bass", "sweeter treble" and/or "faster pace".

Then we would invite him to demonstrate the improvement in the shop. When he did (sometimes being careful not to reveal exactly what he did to the LP12), he would often instantly hear that the tweak really made the music worse. At home it had been a success, but when tried in the shop system, with the music of our choice and all of us listening, the outcome was different.

Not once did I hear a real improvement to the LP12 during those years, which is a bit sad considering how much time and energy that was spent. But we did hear many bad tweaks (some of them I made myself ), and since they were all described with the same kind of expressions, I finally came to the point where the descriptions in themselves were enough and I really didn't want to hear the latest tweak unless I had plenty of time on my hands.

I still feel that way. So, until someone writes "I know the Tune Method, I use it to evaluate performance and this thing is really good", I won't be all that curious. All other descriptions don't really tell me much, other than that person being happy with the sound.

Please note that I'm not saying anything about how these products or your system performs. I can't know that until I hear it. I have experience with the Trampolin 2 (good!), the Bullet Plugs (bad) and servicing LP12's (very important).

Fredrik. I prefer to let my customers trust their own ears in their own listening rooms. After all, is it not music reproduction in their home that is the important factor to them and not what someone else tells them what sounds good or not so good.

The fact is mjuon set up his LP12 himself and did a much better job than his Linn specialist. How can he ever trust this dealer again?

I really believe in my product and so do a growing band of supportive customers who have bought one. Breaking into this audio market was never going to be easy that's for sure, but I believe I have an excellent product that deserves some advertising. I've been trying to secure a hi -fi magazine review but its like pulling teeth.. My only hope is to get folk talking about it in these audio forums.

regards

JohnR

JohnR wrote:I prefer to let my customers trust their own ears in their own listening rooms. After all, is it not music reproduction in their home that is the important factor to them and not what someone else tells them what sounds good or not so good.

So you are not claiming the Sole to be better than a Cirkus chassis?

lejonklou wrote:

JohnR wrote:I prefer to let my customers trust their own ears in their own listening rooms. After all, is it not music reproduction in their home that is the important factor to them and not what someone else tells them what sounds good or not so good.

So you are not claiming the Sole to be better than a Cirkus chassis?

I'm not claiming anything. No! On seconds thoughts I will, some customers who have heard a Keeled LP12 including ex Linn technical personnel reckon it is almost as good as a Keeled LP12.

So if folk wish to follow my affordable upgrade path for their LP12 then that is entirely up to them. I will help them as best I can in allowing them the satisfaction of realising a wonderfull upgrade.

JohnR wrote:I'm not claiming anything. No! On seconds thoughts I will, some customers who have heard a Keeled LP12 including ex Linn technical personnel reckon it is almost as good as a Keeled LP12.

John,

Have you (or anyone) compared the Sole to Cirkus or Keel, in the same system, using the Tune Method? I'm sorry if I sound like a parrot or something, but the quality of this forum is a direct result of the fact that we all use the same method of evaluation. This does not mean that we say that everyone have to use the Tune Method or that it represents some universal truth. It's just the common base of the discussion here and an such I will not allow any discussion on the validity of it.

If you have done such a comparison, please let us know the result, I have no reason to doubt that Sole is a great product in this aspect, as well as in others!

Regards /Azazello

Azazello wrote:...the quality of this forum is a direct result of the fact that we all use the same method of evaluation...

Regards /Azazello

Azazello and Mr. Lejonklou,

If I might add a note from the peanut gallery: the quality of this forum (I think) stems from five interrelated traits:

1) First and foremost, yes, there is the TuneDem method as our common evaluation method.

2) But coming close behind is a culture of reporting on components and tweaks only after having had direct personal experience in a carefully-described comparative situation.

3) Of equal importance is the disinterested nature of most posts here. If I read an evaluation or experiment from Charlie1, or Music Lover, or ThomasOK, or indeed from virtually all of the regular contributors, I have confidence that their results aren't being heavily swayed by conscious or unconscious psychological yearnings.

4) Finally, there's a culture of politeness here, and of mutual respect.

5) Together, traits 1-4 have led to a forum where there's a small number of posts and threads, but each thread contains a wealth of usable, interesting, and defensible advice & information. Discussions here tend to be real discussions, founded on valid technical grounds, and one rarely finds that a Lejonklou thread ultimately reveals more about the participants' psychologies than it does about audio.

There may be other characteristics of comparable or greater impact, but the above lie at the core of why I enjoy this forum so much. And on that basis, I would ask that this current thread be either wound down, or else moved to a separate sub-forum devoted to manufacturer claims.

Although you (Azazello) are rightly focusing on (#1) Tune Dem and (#2) controlled direct comparisons, my concern is with (#3) lack of bias. (Though #4 was somewhat violated right from the outset, with JohnR's opening charges of snobbery!) It's nice to be informed of new products and tweaks out there, and it's a pleasure to hear manufacturers explain the philosophies, goals, or processes by which they create their products. But if a thread becomes one of a manufacturer repeatedly saying "My product is great! Try it out! Lots of people have used my product, and they all think it's great!", then it becomes advertising and purported endorsement / hearsay -- and as such there's little expectation of controlled, disinterested comparison.

Hence a proposal: would you consider a "Manufacturers" sub-forum, to go along with "Hi Fi" etc.? Threads such as this current one can go into there, and readers can go into that subheading knowing that he/she is going to experience some bias and advertising.

Alternatively (and this is what I would prefer), would you consider some sort of defacto guideline on the order of: if a manufacturer comes onto this forum to extoll some product, then he gets one (reasonable length!) post in which he can expound mightily on all the merits of said product, after which all claims must stop. After that, a manufacturer can answer questions about compatibility/ applicability, how the product works, what the design process entailed, etc., etc. And if the manufacturer is really helpful, he can arrange for product demos and comparison bakeoffs that forum members can attend and report on -- but no more claims, "reports", and hearsay from the manufacturer himself or from his representatives.

I realize a guideline such as the above could never be rigidly imposed, and it'd be something to be invoked on an as-it-comes-up basis. But something like it would allow for manufacturer involvement of the kind that would preserve and enhance the culture of this forum, while eliminating the sort of back & forth that this particular thread has necessitated.

Regarding JohnR's current situation, you don't have to impose any rule retroactively, and you could give him his one shot at explaining his product. After that, if it's still a matter of "Lots of people think it's a great product -- I just invite you all to try it!" you can charge him for advertising his product on this website, or perhaps shut things down entirely. Conversely, if he sends any of you a demo unit or arranges a demonstration at a dealership or via one of his existing customers, then you or the other LP enthusiasts here can report on the results. In this manner JohnR and other manufacturers can choose to participate in this forum in a way that supports the current culture, or else they can go away satisfied that they had their chance to announce their product (once!) to a group of potential customers.

Anyway, just some thoughts. :D

-C

[Edit -- cleared up ambiguous language]

Gentlemen.
If I have upset anyone on this forum I sincerely apologise.
To show that I am an honest and graciuos guy who believes in his product, (as do others who have purchased it and heard it) if you wish to wind this thread down then please do so. There are plenty of other means whereby I and my customers can air our findings and views.

Thank you .

JohnR,

It's clear that you're an impassioned and gracious gentleman, and it's equally clear that you believe in your product absolutely. And any entrepreneur willing to throw his hat into the marketplace during this time of financial unrest deserves congratulations and kudos. :D

Regarding this thread: I'm just a forum participant, like yourself, and I doubt Mr. Lejonklou or Azazello will do anything drastic (as you are, they too are gentlemen). Nor is it likely you've caused any offense to anyone here. But speaking for myself, I think you might find more listeners here if you tailor your posts for the norms and culture of this particular forum. In particular that means conducting Tune Dem evaluations and reporting the findings in a way that lets readers fully understand not only the outcome, but also the "input" parameters (e.g., the listening room, the other componentry, how the tests were conducted, etc.); in addition, it'd be nice if you could find a way to have others corroborate your findings (hence the suggestion of organizing demos). Alternatively, if you would enjoy explaining to folks how and why you set about designing your product the way you have, I think folks would enjoy reading your thoughts and discussing them with you and amongst each other.

Regardless, my hat's off to you for launching a business in these times, and I hope your product proves a technical, commercial, and personal success. Best wishes,

-C

JohnR wrote:Gentlemen.
If I have upset anyone on this forum I sincerely apologise.
To show that I am an honest and graciuos guy who believes in his product, (as do others who have purchased it and heard it) if you wish to wind this thread down then please do so. There are plenty of other means whereby I and my customers can air our findings and views.

Thank you .

John,

No one is upset, my intention when i did split the original topic was to give you more attention then you would have gotten in a thread on another subject.

Apart from that I can only agree with Ceilidh. Who needs moderators when we have contributors like that? :)

Regards

Azazello wrote: Apart from that I can only agree with Ceilidh. Who needs moderators when we have contributors like that? :)

Word!

Great post, Ceilidh! Your ideas about why this forum is good and how we should keep it that way are much appreciated.

At the moment, I don't see the need for new rules or sub-forums, since it's a rare occurence indeed that a manufacturer steps in here simply to promote his product. If it would become more frequent, we might need to reconsider things.

John: No need to apologise. But please read the forum rules and note that the forum in which you are contributing is described with the following words: 'HiFi - General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance'.

The world of HiFi is full of different - and sometimes contradictory - ideas about what high quality reproduction of music really is. This forum is the only one I'm aware of in which the method of evaluation is clearly defined and a prerequisite for participation. This might seem like snobbery to an outsider, but it enables us to share valuable information that is relevant to all.

I have taken my time posting on this as I wanted to see how the replies went and give a more measured response. (I have already posted some thoughts on the Linn forum in regards to some inflated claims for the Sole - made by one of the purchasers, not by JohnR.)

So first, I also want to welcome JohnR to the forum. I want to make it clear that we welcome discussions of other products than those made by Linn. I think it fair to say that the majority of the regular posters here are not at all believers in the "if it's not made by Linn it isn't worth considering" theory. A perusal of the forum will show that Fredrik has created several products designed to outperform specific Linn items (MM phono stages and Power Cords for a start) and that many of us have non-Linn pieces in our systems. In my case this includes ATC speakers a REL subwoofer and a custom plinth on my LP12.

Any resistance you might have noted in these posts has nothing to do with your product or with you personally, rather it is due to our adherence to a specific methodology of evaluation. This was covered quite well by Ceilidh's brilliant post on the subject.

While it is certainly interesting to hear of your product there have been no posts here regarding the performance of the Sole that can be considered valid in terms of the evaluation methodology of this forum. The comments you have made are of the nature of this one: "I'm not claiming anything. No! On seconds thoughts I will, some customers...". As mentioned in Cielidh's second point there is little credence given here to hearsay and second or third-person reports. We are quite interested in YOUR OWN evaluation based on direct A/B comparisons using the Tune Method but we really don't have much use for the "this guy thinks it sounds nice" types of comments - they obviously can't be properly evaluated in terms that this forum considers musically valid.

Likewise, the posts by mjuon both here and on the Linn forum, while interesting reading, also do not give us any truly useful information regarding the actual performance of the Sole. This is in part due to his comments having to do more with the sound than the musical qualities of the changes (again no Tune method). But it is also due to the fact that he changed no less than four parts of his turntable at the same time: the subchassis, the armboard, the mat and the Trampolin. Because of this there is no way he can properly evaluate what has really caused the "improvements" he hears. All kinds of questions are raised: Would he have heard this kind of improvement if he just changed the Trampolin? Would it sound even better if he stuck with the felt mat? How much did each piece contribute to what he heard?

So the only real problem is that you have still not answered the question posed by Azazello: "Have you (or anyone) compared the Sole to Cirkus or Keel, in the same system, using the Tune Method?" Interestingly enough, the post on the Linn forum by Jean-Christophe (tof) is much more along the line of what we respect here as he is talking about the musical reproduction changes (how the musicians play together, etc.) and it appears he only changed one item - the subchassis (although some changes in setup could be a part of it too). His post, more than anything I've seen here, gives me some hope that the Sole is indeed an improvement over the Cirkus.

Gentlemen.
I am making a response tonight out of courtesy for your attempts to explain to me the values behind your website. I think I am begining to understand what your values are. I will take the time to make a far more considered response over the weekend.

Before I go here is a little background info on me and also what makes me tick and what turns me off. I am a little tired tonight, perhaps some mistakes will be made in this communication and I apologise in advance for any I do make.

OK. I'm now 51 years of age: engineering, manufacturing and audio equipment has been my main interest since I was knee high to a grasshopper. As soon as I could get my hands on mechanical components I was in my element. I started to build useable bicylces out of scrap ones when I was 9 years old and then moved onto repairng non running motrcycles at 12-13 years of age, learning to ride them by teaching myself on the rough ground near our familly home. In school I was the odd one out in woodwork, metalwork and technical drawing classes by being "off the wall" and not conforming the norm. What did I make in my years at school - not chairs, lamps, tables or fruit bowls but two fully functioning crossbows.

From here I went into a mechanical engineering apprenticeship at a leading titanium manufacuring plant whereby I was their top apprentice. My interst in motorcycles grew and I began many years of restoring old British bikes and also started a love affair with the high performance two stroke engine- learing how to make them more powerfull and reliable. To cut a long story short one of my best achievements in my motorcycle interests, I took a mundane workaday 70mph 5,500 rpm 19 bhp MZ motorbike and turned it into a 10,000rpm 36BHP 115mph club championship winner, against all the odds and yes suffering some cheap jbes from lots of folk - but I did it !

I began working for a leading blue chip company in the late 1970's and via promotion through various engineering roles I am where I am today - A senior mechanical engineer responsible or the ongoing reliabliy, safety , performance and continuous improvemnt of all production and service machinery. So you see, I know that all devices whether they be industrial machinery or hi-fi equipment, can be improved and it can be improved cost effectivley

My intersts in hi-fi flourished after my two children had reached their teens and I suffered a life threatening brain haemorrhage. A bit of a blow this, but I survived and it allowed me to re-appraise my life and my road ahead. I always wanted to have a Linn LP12- Naim hi-fi system, but not being affluent enough to warrant this, I had to wait a long time and then I purchased secondhand equipment but soon set about tweaking for performance improvement. This will be continued on the weekend.

So I am a fighter and I don't take kindly to the word can't !

I am a little dssapointed at the tone of the language used hear e.g "inflated claims made about the Sole" It was made by a customer who felt so happy with the result of his purchase. Would not your instant reaction be just as excited should you have heard a great result with something you had achieved?

Lejonklou, I feel I would hear a distinct differnce to the overall sound of my LP12 when played via different amplification and possibly speakers to what I am used to. Anyhow I'm completely bushed now so I'm signing off.

John R

JohnR wrote: I am a little dssapointed at the tone of the language used hear e.g "inflated claims made about the Sole" It was made by a customer who felt so happy with the result of his purchase. Would not your instant reaction be just as excited should you have heard a great result with something you had achieved?

I wanted to make a clarification here. I certainly didn't try to rain on anyone's parade by saying negative things about something they enjoyed. The claims in question came from a person who did NOT yet own a Sole and were based on his reading of the product information. When I questioned one of his specific claims he actually backed down admitting that he had been "rather heavy and biased toward the Sole".

I have no criticism of your product as I have never heard it. I have questions about some of the design choices but I have long sense found that only your ears can tell the truth. There are many pieces of equipment that have great stories and sound awful and there are also a number that have little in the way of fancy theories of construction that sound great.

It was interesting to read your story, good luck with your business venture.

ThomasOK wrote: Would it sound even better if he stuck with the felt mat? How much did each piece contribute to what he heard?

Fully agree that my "upgrade path" was a bit steep having a new armboard, new springs and grommets, the Sole and the Trampolin II and in terms of tune dem it is not possible to award any of the components to a specific change in musical presentation.
For the mat I was actually going through the tune dem cycle and I spent a lot of time switching between the felt mat (which I always found better even a few years back when experimenting with other mats, even diy constructions) and the Plattamat. First I only recognized that it changed something but I was not quite sure whether it was for the better or the worse. Going through a selection passages on records I know very well, always trying to be very critical with what I am hearing and what I believe I wanted to hear led my to the conclusion that for me the Plattamat gives me a better result.

Hello again Gentlemen.

Right, so where do I pick up the story? You'e had a brief intro into my backgound - now on to my reasons behind the Sole and Plattamat but firstly I must own up that it is apparent I approached your site in a inappropriate manner. I had not read and fully understood your "Tune" method of evaluation (I think I do now) although to me I feel there remains a little ambiguity - it is not easy to convey ones thoughts to all via the written word and for everyone to comprehend the writers feelings , thoughts etc etc.

I am a man of modest means and many interests and I cannot justify the stratospheric asking price of much high end audio equipment.

My audio journey began with a Garrard SP25 and a Heathkit valve amp and Wharfedale speakers, very low end but it went some way to appeasing my adolescent need for popular music.

Anyhow, cutting a very long story short I ended up with my Linn - Naim system: all purchased secondhand and comprising an early LP12, NAC 72 pre amp, NAP140 power amp. Having a few problems with the NAP I40 I eventually built a pair of Avondale Audio NCC 200 boards and fitted these. I must say I was so impressed with the perceived improvement that I went on to build an Avondale TPX1 power supply for the NAC 72 pre which further impressed me . I have an audio engineer friend who helped me along the way and who also has many, many items of kit that I had the opportunity of hearing (in my own system) mainly trying different amplifiers including valve amps and class A transistor (Sugden A21A).

I also had a Rega Planar 3 upgraded with a P25 motor unit and Origin Live structural modification to the RB300. This told me I was missing something with my LP12 and being the inquisitve type I set about thinking what to do to improve my LP12. I procured a later braced plinth, Nirvana suspension set , Valhalla board, a braced (epoxy sub-chassis) all of these items were duly fitted and the musical presentation became a little esier to follow as I grew with my LP12. I even fitted the Rega RB 300 arm but did not initialy like it on my LP12. All the while, my mind was busy working overtime on some fundamental engineering questions surrounding control of vibration and what in my mind could turn my LP12 into something special at reasonable cost.

I have heard many turntables/arm/cartridge combinations over the years, but I am now so happy whith what I have created for my LP 12 I felt others would be keen to hear it too, now many have and the consensus is favorable.

My ethos (but I 'm not preparred to go into lengthy time consuming exchanges as I have Soles and Plattamats to make) is to eliminate or reduce as much unwanted or extraneous vibration as possible. I am a one man outfit and manufacture the Sole as a labour of love - it is essentially made to order. I currently hold down a day job and manufacture the Sole etc in my spare time, so I 'm rather busy.

My material selection and design objective: to make the sub-chassis a lamination of dissimlar materials in order to achieve a very rigid and much less resonant structure than the Linn pressed steel sub-chassis and to make the bearing mounting point very strong and also to improve the junction of arm-board/subchassis ie to remove the "lossy" Linn connection . I will not divulge anymore into the method of construction

SImilarly with the Plattamat - although this is meant as an upgrade for many turntables and not solely (no pun intended) for the LP12. The ethos once again being the elimation or reduction of unwanted airborne and structure borne vibration. I offer an improved grade of oil as well this is a special formunlation and I'm not makeing ridiculous claims for this save that it reduces friction and therefore load on the motor and wear at the thrust face of the bearing Linn black oil is Castrol GTX and molydbdenum disulphide. Good stuff for sure but there is better to be had.

Now the Tune means of listening for an improvment,( or not ) could not be achieved initially, as I did not not have two LP12's (I do now) so listening to A-A-B comparisons for short periods of time could not be realised, because it would mean totally stripping and re-builiding my turntable. Perhaps I can put it this way - with my modified LP12 it is like listening to music with ear plugs removed, everything is so clear it is like having the performers in the same room as you. One can easilly follow the tune, the LP12's presentation of music - the rythym and flow remains and is enhanced even ! Any smear or smudge that was there in the original turntable is completely removed.

I hope perhaps some of you can now understand a little better where I am coming from with my approach. I would dearly like a once and for all conclusive comparison of my affordable Sole sub-chassis versus all the other upgrade subs currently available including the Keel. But somehow I feel this will not be possible.

John R

Interesting story, John!

I would be happy to try the Sole if you sent me one for evaluation. It would require that I have some time on my hands, to make sure it's an accurate and fair comparison. Currently I don't have that, but hopefully I will soon have a tiny bit lighter workload.

The Plattamat would however be very easy to evaluate. If it really is better than the standard felt mat, I would be impressed. I have tried many alternative mats in the past and have been disappointed every time.

Please let me know if you would like me to review it.

Regarding your LP12 main bearing oil versus the original, please note that there is an intentional amount of drag in the Linn bearing. This causes the motor to constantly pull on the platter with a certain force to keep it up to speed.

If the drag is too low, the tension in the belt will start to vary because the platter will accelerate up to the correct speed, the belt tension will lower, the platter will slow down, the belt tension will increase etc.

Just like when pulling a toy car in a rubber band, the ride of the car will be much smoother if the wheels have some friction than if they roll very easily. It's rather easy to picture the bouncing movement of the car if it rolls without friction - and the same applies to the LP12 belt drive.


I am also convinced that the idea of minimising vibration is not the right way to approach the LP12. There will always be very high levels of vibration in it, compared to the magnitude of the tiniest music signals being extracted. Preventing the vibrations from converting into a signal at the cartridge is however very important. The Keel subchassie achieve this by keeping the vibrations equal at all points in the suspended system. That's why the subchassie should ring like a bell, rather than being damped, when you hold it up and tap it.

Mr. Lejonklou.

We need to discuss, please PM me. We need to understand a few things.

Regards

JohnR

JohnR wrote: I had not read and fully understood your "Tune" method of evaluation (I think I do now) although to me I feel there remains a little ambiguity - it is not easy to convey ones thoughts to all via the written word and for everyone to comprehend the writers feelings , thoughts etc etc.

JohnR wrote:
Now the Tune means of listening for an improvment,( or not ) could not be achieved initially, as I did not not have two LP12's (I do now) so listening to A-A-B comparisons for short periods of time could not be realised, because it would mean totally stripping and re-builiding my turntable.

JohnR wrote:
I would dearly like a once and for all conclusive comparison of my affordable Sole sub-chassis versus all the other upgrade subs currently available including the Keel. But somehow I feel this will not be possible.

Hi John.
I have to admit I'm little surprised and puzzled reading this.
You not only unfamiliar with "tune dem" as evaluation method, you haven’t compared your products with original Lp12 parts either.
:roll:
And no intension comparing despite owning two 12’s?


Do you really consider your statements regarding the performance increase valid at all?