Azazello wrote:...the quality of this forum is a direct result of the fact that we all use the same method of evaluation...
Regards /Azazello
Azazello and Mr. Lejonklou,
If I might add a note from the peanut gallery: the quality of this forum (I think) stems from five interrelated traits:
1) First and foremost, yes, there is the TuneDem method as our common evaluation method.
2) But coming close behind is a culture of reporting on components and tweaks only after having had direct personal experience in a carefully-described comparative situation.
3) Of equal importance is the disinterested nature of most posts here. If I read an evaluation or experiment from Charlie1, or Music Lover, or ThomasOK, or indeed from virtually all of the regular contributors, I have confidence that their results aren't being heavily swayed by conscious or unconscious psychological yearnings.
4) Finally, there's a culture of politeness here, and of mutual respect.
5) Together, traits 1-4 have led to a forum where there's a small number of posts and threads, but each thread contains a wealth of usable, interesting, and defensible advice & information. Discussions here tend to be real discussions, founded on valid technical grounds, and one rarely finds that a Lejonklou thread ultimately reveals more about the participants' psychologies than it does about audio.
There may be other characteristics of comparable or greater impact, but the above lie at the core of why I enjoy this forum so much. And on that basis, I would ask that this current thread be either wound down, or else moved to a separate sub-forum devoted to manufacturer claims.
Although you (Azazello) are rightly focusing on (#1) Tune Dem and (#2) controlled direct comparisons, my concern is with (#3) lack of bias. (Though #4 was somewhat violated right from the outset, with JohnR's opening charges of snobbery!) It's nice to be informed of new products and tweaks out there, and it's a pleasure to hear manufacturers explain the philosophies, goals, or processes by which they create their products. But if a thread becomes one of a manufacturer repeatedly saying "My product is great! Try it out! Lots of people have used my product, and they all think it's great!", then it becomes advertising and purported endorsement / hearsay -- and as such there's little expectation of controlled, disinterested comparison.
Hence a proposal: would you consider a "Manufacturers" sub-forum, to go along with "Hi Fi" etc.? Threads such as this current one can go into there, and readers can go into that subheading knowing that he/she is going to experience some bias and advertising.
Alternatively (and this is what I would prefer), would you consider some sort of defacto guideline on the order of: if a manufacturer comes onto this forum to extoll some product, then he gets one (reasonable length!) post in which he can expound mightily on all the merits of said product, after which all claims must stop. After that, a manufacturer can
answer questions about compatibility/ applicability, how the product works, what the design process entailed, etc., etc. And if the manufacturer is really helpful, he can arrange for product demos and comparison bakeoffs that forum members can attend and report on -- but no more claims, "reports", and hearsay from the manufacturer himself or from his representatives.
I realize a guideline such as the above could never be rigidly imposed, and it'd be something to be invoked on an as-it-comes-up basis. But something like it would allow for manufacturer involvement of the kind that would preserve and enhance the culture of this forum, while eliminating the sort of back & forth that this particular thread has necessitated.
Regarding JohnR's current situation, you don't have to impose any rule retroactively, and you could give him his one shot at explaining his product. After that, if it's still a matter of "Lots of people think it's a great product -- I just invite you all to try it!" you can charge him for advertising his product on this website, or perhaps shut things down entirely. Conversely, if he sends any of you a demo unit or arranges a demonstration at a dealership or via one of his existing customers, then you or the other LP enthusiasts here can report on the results. In this manner JohnR and other manufacturers can choose to participate in this forum in a way that supports the current culture, or else they can go away satisfied that they had their chance to announce their product (once!) to a group of potential customers.
Anyway, just some thoughts. :D
-C
[Edit -- cleared up ambiguous language]
), and since they were all described with the same kind of expressions, I finally came to the point where the descriptions in themselves were enough and I really didn't want to hear the latest tweak unless I had plenty of time on my hands.
