Linn downloads vs. Linn CD's

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-06 12:36

Anyone compared downloading music from Linn (or other store) comparing it with ripping a CD?

We know that different ways ripping (CDdrive used, ripping SW and ripping settings) affect the result, so what about getting the rip from Linn...

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-10-06 15:32

So far I've only downloaded music that is in a better than Red Book format. The Higher resolution files sound better. 24/192 being the clear winner. Steve Gibbons Linn CD ripped through RipStation is very good, but then I like all the rips I've done except those when I tried to multitask while ripping. I now stop everything on computer while ripping. The Studio Masters From Linn are great. Just wish for some more popular works.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-07 10:27

The relevant comparison is CD ripping vs 16b/44k download.
That studiomaster is better is hardly a surprise

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2008-10-07 11:14

Music Lover wrote:The relevant comparison is CD ripping vs 16b/44k download.

I know that you have FLAC files of Linnrecord songs both ripped on your computer and other (Linnrecord) songs ripped on another computer. So what is stopping you from downloading individual songs and testing this today? :P It' only €1,5 for each song so for €3 you can test both rips! We trust your judgement! :D

As an interesting note I can mention that the 56 kbit MP3's on the Naim Records site can't be bettered even with 320 kbit MP3's made from their CD's. The only explanation that makes sense is that they are made from a better source, master tape? So how are Linn making their FLAC files? We must know! Today? :mrgreen:

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-07 11:21

Today, haha
ok then I download some tracks - only for you :mrgreen:
Keep you posted...

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2008-10-07 11:27

Music Lover wrote:ok then I download some tracks - only for you :mrgreen:

Music Lover is a true friend in musical needs! :!:
A true truth searcher that lights like a beacon for all other tunedemmers to follow! :mrgreen:
(And he is also very prone to action when provoked... :D )

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2008-10-10 23:27

Linnofil wrote:
Music Lover wrote:
As an interesting note I can mention that the 56 kbit MP3's on the Naim Records site can't be bettered even with 320 kbit MP3's made from their CD's. The only explanation that makes sense is that they are made from a better source, master tape? So how are Linn making their FLAC files? We must know! Today? :mrgreen:

Surely you cant compress master files please say it aint so: if so what is the world coming to?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-11 04:43

You compress master files making CDs...

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2008-10-11 23:48

Lego wrote:Surely you cant compress master files please say it aint so: if so what is the world coming to?

Oh no, I'm not compressing anything that doesn't have to be compressed! I do have a pretty good MP3 player that can't use FLAC, so I have to compress to MP3/WMA for portable use.

But it is very interesting that you can download a (demosong) 56 kbit MP3 file from Naim records that is better than any MP3 file that can be made from the original CD that you buy, based on the soundclip heard! I don't know how this can be?

It would be interesting to know if an MP3 file made from CD i as good as an MP3 file made from a high resolution FLAC file.
Is linn making their MP3 files from a 16/44 "CD master" or from a higher resolution file? Is there a difference?

Can a 16/44 FLAC file be better if made from a high resolution FLAC file, instead of a 16/44 CD? I'm not shure is wise to get theoretical here. It's probably better to just try and see what works.

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2008-10-12 08:41

Linnofil wrote:It would be interesting to know if an MP3 file made from CD i as good as an MP3 file made from a high resolution FLAC file.
Is linn making their MP3 files from a 16/44 "CD master" or from a higher resolution file? Is there a difference?

Can a 16/44 FLAC file be better if made from a high resolution FLAC file, instead of a 16/44 CD? I'm not shure is wise to get theoretical here. It's probably better to just try and see what works.

I would think that it is likely that a highres file compressed with a good compressing scheme can even be better than the 16/44 uncompressed or FLAC copy. I do not know about MP3 though. As DVD-videos can sound very good one might suspect that MP3 compressin is good enough. The same probably do not apply for FLAC copies made from highres FLAC copies as they both are lossless-coded and as such carry all information available for each data rate. The downsampling process can however be made differently hence producing different end results, but I suspect that was not what you where thinking of?

I am very sceptical about differences when it comes to differet paths for digital copies. My guess is that there is always a good explanation when different digital copies sound different. Either because they are different (compression rate or different meta data) or due to either bit errors or analogue disturbances added on the digital signal (from the components delivering the signal). I do believe that one might encounter differences when comparing files that (with that said) should produce identical results but in that case there also are other (good) explanations to be found if the tests are thorough enough. Conclusions drawn from too fiew comparisons can easily be flawed by changes (changes in the exeltrical envorinment, by switching on or off other electrical consumers such as refridgerators, elevators, the neighbours TV etc.) introduced without the knowledge of the person(s) performing the test.

Music at Home · Post by **Music at Home** » 2008-10-12 17:50

I've just downloaded the 'CD quality' version of "Beautiful Life" by Barb Jungr and compared it to the 'Studio Quality' 96kHz/24bit version of the same track. I have to say, I can't tell them apart :(

If I compare them 'sighted', I *think* I can hear slight differences between the two that *might* give slight clues as to which is which. However, I've blind tested myself and I have to admit I just can't reliably pick out the hi-res version from the cd quality version.

I'm using an Akurate DS, Klimax Kontrol, Klimax Twin and a pair of Neat Acoustics MF5's. Anybody done this kind of comparison and thought the differences were obvious? If so, which tracks and what equipment are you using? I'm starting to worry now that something's not right with my setup or I'm going deaf!

I have to say though that the track (in both formats) sounds fantastic and better than any commercially available CD that I can think of.

m@h

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-13 06:03

Compared in five systems and the difference depends of the track.
What NAS are you using?
Much (other) data passing the switch?

Music at Home · Post by **Music at Home** » 2008-10-13 10:18

I'm using a QNAP 109 NAS and a Netgear GS105 switch. The switch is dedicated to the DS side of things - i.e. The only devices plugged into it are the DS and the NAS, then a cable goes from this switch to another GS105 which connects to all other devices on the network, i.e. ADSL Modem/Router/WAP, various PCs, etc. All ethernet cabling is SFTP CAT6.

Any tracks you can recommend where the difference between 'CD' and 'Studio' quality should be relatively easy to spot?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-13 18:58

Good DS architecture, no issues there!
With that setup and your HIFI system you should be able to detect the different files.
Check if Linn still have the demo tacks on their WEB Linn records.
Very short (a few sec each) but check if you can distinguish between mp3, CD and masterquality.

Did you ever compared your Akurate DS with Majik/Sneaky and Klimax DS?
What do you think of the differences?

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2008-10-13 19:22

There might be some issues regarding the electrical installation which could limit the systems performance. Have you checked the phase of the power supply for the switch. This had some influnce in my installation. Another thing is the ethernet cable from the switch to the DS. I have found that the shield should only be attached at the switch end. It could be worth a try.

Music at Home · Post by **Music at Home** » 2008-10-13 20:12

Music Lover wrote:Check if Linn still have the demo tacks on their WEB Linn records.
Very short (a few sec each) but check if you can distinguish between mp3, CD and masterquality.

Did you ever compared your Akurate DS with Majik/Sneaky and Klimax DS?
What do you think of the differences?

I'm away from home now but will have a listen to the demo tracks when I'm back this weekend.

I bought my Akurate DS some time before the Majik and Sneaky were available and the Klimax DS was more than I could afford. I've heard the Klimax DS, and was very impressed, but so far I've not had the chance to do a direct A-B comparison. I'm sure I'll get the opportunity sooner or later.

Music at Home · Post by **Music at Home** » 2008-10-13 20:31

hcl wrote:Have you checked the phase of the power supply for the switch. This had some influnce in my installation. Another thing is the ethernet cable from the switch to the DS. I have found that the shield should only be attached at the switch end. It could be worth a try.

I'm in the UK so not able to alter the phase due to the three-pin mains plugs we have here. I'll do some more experimenting and maybe take a look at how easy it would be to disconnect the shield at one end of the CAT6 cables I'm using.

My system actually sounds great! I'm just surpised that I couldn't hear a difference between the CD and Studio quality versions of the same track. I have some high resolution DVD-A rips that sound much better than the CD equivalents but I'm not sure we are talking like-with-like here. Maybe DVD-A's are generally mastered with the knowledge that they are more likely to be played in a hi-fi system rather than a typical midi-system/ghetto-blaster/car radio and therefore aren't subject to the amounts of dynamic compression and equilisation that is more usually applied to commercial CD releases.

I thought that with the tracks available on the Linn records web-site, here was an opportunity to take the mastering variations out of the equation and I'd be able to listen to the difference made pureley due to the resolution used. Perhaps I've picked a bad example. If there are any tracks on the Linn records web site that anyone has heard that definitely do demonstrate the superiority of the Studio quality format then I'm all ears!

Music at Home · Post by **Music at Home** » 2008-10-18 13:18

An update on my listening tests:

I tried the Linn test samples, mp3, CD quality, Studio Quality and couldn't reliably tell them apart, even when comparing the mp3 version directly with the 96kHz/24bit version. A bit of an embarrassing result perhaps, but I'd be interested to know what kind of difference I should be hearing.

Secondly, as the above is based on a 5 second sample, I thought I'd try another 'regular' track for comparison. I used one of the tracks available on the "Best of Linn Records Sampler", available for free in Studio Quality so I just needed to pay for the CD quality track to compare.

I went for the CD Quality Flac of track 4 "Chorus: And The Glory of the Lord" from this album:

http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-me ... -1742.aspx

I also added the Studio Master Flac version of this sampler album to my cart :

http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-akp-998.aspx

and entered promotion code FK3ER6T4 at the checkout to get the sampler album for free. So, total cost of trial: 89p

Again, I could not reliably tell the CD quality track from the Studio Quality version. If anybody would like to try the above and post their results here, drop me a PM and I'll happily refund the 89p by PayPal to the first three who try it!

Just to add, I'm blind testing these tracks. I'm using Leia DS, adding them into the playlist and then using the shuffle feature (with the playlist covered) so I don't know which track is which and then using the numerical "1" and "2" buttons on the remote handset to alternate between tracks.

cremona · Post by **cremona** » 2008-10-18 15:16

If your system and setup are not up to it it will not be abel to show the improvment.

The room is the most important thing here .

Try a good roomcorrection like the lyngdorf rooomperfect if you are skeptical by the rooms influence on the playback, and i asure you that all the differences between sources,cables and so on will be aparent.

Music at Home · Post by **Music at Home** » 2008-10-18 16:28

Hi Cremona,

I'm quite aware of how influential the room can be on the final sound and have taken the trouble to address this to an extent with some carefully placed room treatments. See photo:

Any chance you could try some of the music samples mentioned and let me know what you think?

The free test samples are here:

http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloa ... files.aspx

The files to download are:
- FLAC master quality test
- FLAC CD quality test
- MP3 test

cremona · Post by **cremona** » 2008-10-18 17:33

Hi

Great then thats sourgted out , looks great by the way :)

( there seem to be a strange fenonomen in the linn comunity where the room is almost of no importants )

Enyway i downloaded the various artist album from linn in studio master kvality well sounds great but the music is horrerble so havent had the erge to download it other formats.

Havever i have done ALOT of comparisons with well known and loved music in 320 files vs flac files and the the difference is that the flac files gives better seperation and air around the instruments/ and musicians.
In absolut terms the difference is not HUGE but in my klimax /sonus faber system the difference is evident .

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-18 19:19

cremona wrote:there seem to be a strange fenonomen in the linn comunity where the room is almost of no importants

In my opinion the room influences the sound very much and the musical message less.

The musicality of the system can certainly be improved by improving the room acoustics, but it's no substitute for a good system.

When trying to evaluate FLAC - CD - MP3, I suggest staying away from "well know and loved" music as this may hide the most important differences in the reproduction: Your ability to understand the message. With old favourites, you already have a strong opinion of what the message is and risk seeking confirmation of old ideals.

With new music - and preferably recordings that don't impress or sound really sweet - you are faced with the task of understanding and possibly appreciating the musical message. In that context, it becomes much more easy to recognise the really important differences.

Music at Home · Post by **Music at Home** » 2008-10-18 20:15

cremona wrote:Enyway i downloaded the various artist album from linn in studio master kvality well sounds great but the music is horrerble so havent had the erge to download it other formats.

Havever i have done ALOT of comparisons with well known and loved music in 320 files vs flac files and the the difference is that the flac files gives better seperation and air around the instruments/ and musicians.

Cremona,

I make no apologies for the music in the Linn record store but the Barb Jungr track isn't bad and the Messiah track is sublime - I might even be tempted to buy the entire thing (although I'm not sure if the Studio Master is worth the extra

).

Can I not persuade you to be the first to take up my 89p challenge? In fact, forget about the 89p, what about the free sample files?

Fredrik - have you compared any of the high resolution tracks on Linn's web-site with the CD quality versions? Any thoughts?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-18 21:02

Music at Home wrote:Fredrik - have you compared any of the high resolution tracks on Linn's web-site with the CD quality versions? Any thoughts?

I've listened to Linn studio masters a few times and I have briefly heard comparisons at Linn retailers, but I have never made any serious comparisons of my own. Mostly because I don't yet have a Linn DS player in my home system. The highest resolution files seem a bit better, but I haven't experienced it as night and day.

On an older but related high-resolution note, I did several times compare SACD and DVD-A with standard CD tracks and not once did I find the SACD/DVD-A version any better musically. More polished, yes. More detail, yes. More musical - no.

It was quite interesting that, only a few years ago, every single Linn employee that I spoke to said "SACD is fantastic" - and then they didn't want to discuss that subject any further.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-10-18 21:42

lejonklou wrote:
cremona wrote:there seem to be a strange fenonomen in the linn comunity where the room is almost of no importants
In my opinion the room influences the sound very much and the musical message less.

The musicality of the system can certainly be improved by improving the room acoustics, but it's no substitute for a good system.

When trying to evaluate FLAC - CD - MP3, I suggest staying away from "well know and loved" music as this may hide the most important differences in the reproduction: Your ability to understand the message. With old favourites, you already have a strong opinion of what the message is and risk seeking confirmation of old ideals.

With new music - and preferably recordings that don't impress or sound really sweet - you are faced with the task of understanding and possibly appreciating the musical message. In that context, it becomes much more easy to recognise the really important differences.

I thoroughly agree with both the comments about room acoustics and about listening with less familiar music. When I am making comparisons of two items or adjustments that are close in performance I usually switch to some music that is less familiar or that I haven't listened to in some time and recommend the same for my customers. Often a piece of music in a category that a customer doesn't think they like is found to be quite enjoyable on the better system/component and noticeably less so on the lesser performing kit. Those same musical differences are not noticed as well with music the customer loves and therefore finds enjoyable on most systems.