Tundra 2.2 vs Linn C4200/D and KCT/D

[donuk]

I would hope that the Tundras were "at least as good as the Linn Akurate amps"....

Donuk
sunny downtown York

[Charlie1]

I've made a few recordings at various intervals hoping to demonstrate burn-in. However, the sound of the room/system seems to vary depending upon time of day and even air temperature so I couldn't obtain anything consistent enough. I don't think there has been a significant burn-in improvement anyway.

I'm definitely enjoying my music more. I've already acclimatised so that I'm not hearing the new sound any more - i.e. the initial excitement has faded and I'm just back to normal listening. But I'm getting much more out of it and wanting to listen more often. I've inherited a heap of classical so not bought much lately.

I'm also wondering if somewhere along the line I lost something quite important to my enjoyment. Not sure if it was moving from Exposure to Linn amplification or perhaps when I went back from aktiv to passive, as I upgraded from Ninkas to 140s. Are Chakra amps really good enough for passive operation? If my enjoyment level is maintained over coming months then I will really start to wonder. We'll see. It's quite possible that I'm still getting a small 'fix' from the upgrade which is making me want to listen a lot more than usual.

Lastly, I now find pre-1st more engaging with the Tundra. I still hear the benefits of Rad-1st but now prefer to prioritise that rock solid pitch accuracy than to keep the benefits of Rad-1st (i.e. an ease/rightness between instruments). Here's a recording for anyone interested:

Rad 1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mvnma03yjj4ek ... t.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kf4cjkbs22i6p ... t.MOV?dl=0

[beck]

Good to hear that you are enjoying listening to music with the Tundra. That should be the main goal of any system.

I think you have already answered your own question about where and how you lost the musical enjoyment. :-)

[lejonklou]

I'm getting much more out of it and wanting to listen more often

I can't help but feel very happy when reading the above words. My mission is accomplished!

Those two clips... The difference is both subtle and at the same time musically fundamental in my ears. It's almost like two bands playing the same song, where the character of each band shows through. Both bands do it well, but differently:

Pre first really dig into the play of notes, the unfolding of the melody. They seem to be floating above the floor, aiming up. Higher.

Radikal first focus on the rhythm. They're heavier, look down into the floor and stomp their feet in synchronicity. They don't aim to be clever but rather to be cool.

There's got to be a way of getting the best of each of these two bands! Both at once, not loosing anything. To accomplish that, we need some fresh ideas and a bunch of trial and error on mains distribution blocks and power cords. Which in a way can seem like complete madness, but that is precisely how the best HiFi is achieved: Some science, some art, some invention, some experience and an endless amount of trial and error.

[u252agz]

Here's a recording for anyone interested:

Rad 1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mvnma03yjj4ek ... t.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kf4cjkbs22i6p ... t.MOV?dl=0

These Pre/Rad first clips continue to be just fascinating, and maybe even more now with the Tundra in place.

To me, they sound both very good yet quite different.

I have a strong preference for the Pre first - which I think is more musical, in a way I find hard to describe.

I suppose to me it is just more enjoyable and has more of that 'can't stop listening to it' quality

[Charlie1]

Pre first really dig into the play of notes, the unfolding of the melody. They seem to be floating above the floor, aiming up. Higher.

Radikal first focus on the rhythm. They're heavier, look down into the floor and stomp their feet in synchronicity. They don't aim to be clever but rather to be cool.

I like your descriptions, especially the head up, head down bit. I think I'm hearing the same but had not found such a descriptive way to express it.

There's got to be a way of getting the best of each of these two bands! Both at once, not loosing anything. To accomplish that, we need some fresh ideas and a bunch of trial and error on mains distribution blocks and power cords. Which in a way can seem like complete madness, but that is precisely how the best HiFi is achieved: Some science, some art, some invention, some experience and an endless amount of trial and error.

Yes, that would be nice. Head up with maximum tunefulness and synchronicity :)

If you have any ideas that I can try then please let me know. I assume it's not legal to terminate two components into a single plug. I'd also lose the Linn moulded plugs which might be more important.

[Charlie1]

I suppose to me it is just more enjoyable and has more of that 'can't stop listening to it' quality

Yes, me too! I find pre-first more interesting/engaging and want to listen longer. Like you, this is what's made the decision.

[Charlie1]

I think you have already answered your own question about where and how you lost the musical enjoyment. :-)

Yes, I suppose the how (i.e. amp), but not the when (i.e. post-Exposure or post-Aktiv Linn)

[ThomasOK]

Yes, it is interesting how different the two sound. As before I definitely prefer pre-first. To me it sounds like better musicians playing more fluidly and it makes me want to dance. I usually don't listen much past beyond deciding which is most tuneful - probably because I do so much of this in my work(s). I generally don't want to spend much time getting past which is more tuneful. However, I did just go back and forth a few times. There are some interesting characteristics of Rad-first. It has more power and push to it which can be attractive, but it also sounds like the musicians are slurring the notes somewhat as if they really can't keep that powerful beat together. So it still just doesn't do it for me. In some ways it reminds me of Urika vs. Slipsik MC in that each had advantages although the Urika was overall superior. There I also wanted the best of both worlds, more so than here where I don't really mind giving up what Rad-first does for the pre-first presentation.

[Freddy]

I think pre first is a little better. Played them several times and to me it gets more obvios when he starts to sing. The voice comes out litle clearer. Thanks, very interesting to compare this way!

[Efraim roots]

Interesting comparison between Radikal or KK first. I started listening to Radikal first and then KK first, even after a couple of times I felt a bit sea sick when the KK first clips start. My understanding of the musical time signature is lagging behind, music is not really grounded. In the end I must say I also prefer KK first but there may be something about Radikal first, as it has been said already.

I have tried this myself many times and came to the conclusion that when I used Klimax Kontrol or Sagatun preamps with Tundra 2 poweramp I always preferred PRE first. I didn't really think I was missing something when comparing with Radikal first in my systems at the time IIRC (I tried in two different flats). BUT when I'm using a complete set of Naim amps (like I do), I definitely prefer Source First connection. It's a consequent result with many different naim amps I've tried. My guess is that it has something to do with the different constructions. But also, naim amps excel in pace/tempo/timing and being what I call 'dynamic accurate'. That kind of harmonic 'pitch accurate' stuff Linn amps traditionally do well is absent. Maybe it's also about different connections showing off different qualities, and Linn lack in timing and Naim lack in harmonic pitch, and there is benefits in maximizing each strengths? I still think the naim bits are more fundamental for recreating a musical experience, even if it's not perfect and it would be nice to get it all of course.

[beck]

I would just like to congratulate everybody taking part in this discussion.

This discussion based on a common listening experience via clips is a useful way of sharing views and moving forward gaining more knowlegde of what is being presented to us when listening to music through hifi systems.

In the long run I know that the only thing worth reaching for via recorded music is the common bond we have as humans. This bond of human emotion (experience through living) told by musicians through their music is the real "gold".
That is what we all should be digging for. Happy hunting. :-)

[Charlie1]

Interesting comparison between Radikal or KK first. I started listening to Radikal first and then KK first, even after a couple of times I felt a bit sea sick when the KK first clips start. My understanding of the musical time signature is lagging behind, music is not really grounded. In the end I must say I also prefer KK first but there may be something about Radikal first, as it has been said already.

I have tried this myself many times and came to the conclusion that when I used Klimax Kontrol or Sagatun preamps with Tundra 2 poweramp I always preferred PRE first. I didn't really think I was missing something when comparing with Radikal first in my systems at the time IIRC (I tried in two different flats). BUT when I'm using a complete set of Naim amps (like I do), I definitely prefer Source First connection. It's a consequent result with many different naim amps I've tried. My guess is that it has something to do with the different constructions. But also, naim amps excel in pace/tempo/timing and being what I call 'dynamic accurate'. That kind of harmonic 'pitch accurate' stuff Linn amps traditionally do well is absent. Maybe it's also about different connections showing off different qualities, and Linn lack in timing and Naim lack in harmonic pitch, and there is benefits in maximizing each strengths? I still think the naim bits are more fundamental for recreating a musical experience, even if it's not perfect and it would be nice to get it all of course.

Interesting to read your experiences Efraim.
So, you felt sea sick with KK-1st clip, but still preferred it - is that right?

[Charlie1]

Here's a third way, connecting Urika directly to Tundra, but not for the faint-hearted! Sorry it's such a quiet song but it's just too loud otherwise.

Pre-1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ysi6skn1golnj ... t.MOV?dl=0
Rad-1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iwrpnxkrw0l6n ... t.MOV?dl=0
3rd Way: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tkytqnwepa16x ... y.MOV?dl=0

[beck]

No surprice to me. The third way is my way. :-)

[matthias]

Here's a third way, connecting Urika directly to Tundra, but not for the faint-hearted!

Charlie,
can you shed more light on this connection?
I have no clue.
Thanks

Matt

[Charlie1]

Just connecting straight from Urika into the Tundra, so bypassing the KK entirely.

Of course this means there is no volume control (amongst other things). Unity gain is 80 so equivalent to vol 80 on the KK, so too high for normal listening. I assume a louder track would likely cause clipping too.

[Efraim roots]

Interesting to read your experiences Efraim.
So, you felt sea sick with KK-1st clip, but still preferred it - is that right?

Interesting clips too Charlie1 :-) Yes I think KK first is better. The difference is quite radical from the first clip to the other so I guess that's why I got this sea sick feeling. In most cases such shortcomings just "provokes" me. Especially in the long run when I day after day, week after week, month after month, remain seated and "provoked" instead of dancing with feelings of life rushing in me.

[Efraim roots]

Sorry this might be a bit too much for this thread, but I already wrote it as a PM and thought I might publish it instead. Those that has been following this forum know the discussion from before. I don't know if it leads anywhere but here I am again ;-)

For me I think I just can't cope with the shortcomings of Linn/Lejonklou amps very well, but I cope well with the shortcomings of Naim amps. The absolute strengths of naim amps are strong and I don't care much about the rest. Bear in mind I'm quite narrow in my musical interest and are really a reggae/dub record collector since my youth days. I know that about myself that I'm a heart-led person, and also reggae music is the "heartbeat music". I guess pace/tempo/pulse is particularly important for me. For a more universal context next question might be, which is the most important organ? I guess music aims at different aspect of us humans, and I'm a heart-led person listening to heartbeat music :-)

The harmonic pitch tradionally a "Linn quality" is to me like a 'mothers touch' which I just isn't very interested in. The accurate dynamics traditionally a 'naim quality' is more about "power", be a warrior not a worrier. I need that :-)

I believe tune dem works very well, but when pushed to its limits and when creating from scratch (not just tuning), "inner-reference" will be crucial. Just because you say "just feel" when you do a tune dem, it doesn't mean everybodys feelings work the same way. Your own experience in life will affect your emotional depth and understanding. Did you experience Woodstock 1969 for yourself or did you not? (I think it will make a difference on your inner reference and emotional understanding). Someone who didn't have that or similar experience will not understand the ones that actually was there and got a deep, life changing, experience.

I haven't heard anything else coming close the musicality of these hi-fi brands still. Some random vintage gear could be exceptionally enjoyable but it's some serious hunting involved :-)

[matthias]

Efraim,
I understand your position.
I started with Linn LK1/Dirak/LK2-80, then climbed the Naim ladder up to 52/Prefix/250 and now I am happy with Exposure 13/21/4DR(modified).
Unfortunately I never listened to Lejonklou, but Exposure gives me the best from both worlds.

Matt

[maffe]

@Charlie1: What record/artist is it? Really like it!

[Charlie1]

Hi Maffe, Laura Marling 'I Speak Because I Can'. There are lots more strong songs on the LP.

It's a nice pressing too. Might cost a few Euros on vinly now. It's an all-analogue album too, produced by Ethan Johns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Speak_Because_I_Can

I got mine direct from Amazon a few years ago. I think they have sold out now but looks like other companies are still selling it through Amazon.

[maffe]

Thx!
Think I know what to listen to on my flight tonight :)
There´s a new release on that record, know if it is as good as the older?

[Charlie1]

Just remembered, I think there might have been a cheaper digitised version available on LP, but could be mistaken. Mine is 'DIV 028LP' on Diverse Records. Looks to be available on their website: http://www.diverserecords.co.uk/forthco ... use-i-can/

Here's another taster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdgsdRfC4Ag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATxY1EMHYMc&t=2879s

You might also like Eleanor McEvoy. I have 'Naked Music' which I quite like, although I think the Laura Marling album is much stronger. It says here that Naked Music was recorded to 1/2 inch tape:
http://www.diverserecords.co.uk/forthco ... ked-music/

[Charlie1]

I have 'Naked Music' which I quite like, although I think the Laura Marling album is much stronger.

Actually, playing it now through the Tundra and I have underestimated it. It's got some good songs on it. Quite a bit of sibilance too though, but my Akiva could be exaggerating that.