Some people prefer Valhalla LP12 to later versions, or Kan 1s to Kan 2s, often quoting that something was lost in later versions, the original had more boogie etc. I have a feeling I may have picked up on what they deem so important, although I'm not sure.

My Ninkas were able to really boogie on some tracks. The timing would be kind of sync'd like a pendulum. These tracks seemed to be imbued with more 'swing', compared to 140s, but was it induced by the Ninkas or better preserved by them? I recall mentioning this to Fredrik ages ago. Pretty sure he identified with it (or in Keilidh's) and felt that 212s (or maybe 242s) presented a truer picture of musical timing.

Anyone else experienced this? And do you think something similar happened with the Valhalla LP12 - i.e. did it do something to the music that was less accurate to the LP, but really enjoyed by some listeners? I'm not talking about the warmer sound here, just music related elements.

It's been too long since I heard a Valhalla deck and I've never had the pleasure of comparing one to a modern LP12. I do have an old video tape recording of my Valhalla deck and, it might be my imagination, but I think I can hear something along these lines.

Charlie1 wrote: My Ninkas were able to really boogie on some tracks. The timing would be kind of sync'd like a pendulum. These tracks seemed to be imbued with more 'swing', compared to 140s, but was it induced by the Ninkas or better preserved by them?

Unlikely that anything is being added by a speaker - much more likely that the 140 is loosing this. A driver can be lacking in freedom of movement, can over move or can be just right. Also, crossovers and drive units distort phase to different degrees across the frequency range. Get that mix wrong across the various drive units and they'll loose some of the timing side of the music. I suspect.

Ninkas and Keilidhs were very good at this. I think, when I chose my M140s I was listening too much too the hifi and not enough to the music. Boogie factor was a key decision for me when choosing my current speakers - they're much better at it than the Akubarik and 3677, for example, amongst many others of course.

Did you compare the 3677s to your current speakers in the same set-up?

Matt

Thanks Sunbeam. Kans were also good at this so I wondered if it was a non-ported speaker thing, but suspect that's too simplistic and probably just coincidence.

sunbeamgls wrote:Boogie factor was a key decision for me when choosing my current speakers - they're much better at it than the Akubarik and 3677, for example, amongst many others of course.

It is hard to explain what I think boogie factor means to me. How would you (or anyone else) describe it?

Charlie1 wrote:Thanks Sunbeam. Kans were also good at this so I wondered if it was a non-ported speaker thing, but suspect that's too simplistic and probably just coincidence.

sunbeamgls wrote:Boogie factor was a key decision for me when choosing my current speakers - they're much better at it than the Akubarik and 3677, for example, amongst many others of course.

It is hard to explain what I think boogie factor means to me. How would you (or anyone else) describe it?

Just the desire to want to move along with the music - foot tapping, head nodding, air guitar, whatever does it for you!

matthias wrote:Did you compare the 3677s to your current speakers in the same set-up?

Matt

No.

sunbeamgls wrote:Just the desire to want to move along with the music - foot tapping, head nodding, air guitar, whatever does it for you!

haha, I'm more of an air-drummer, in private of course :)

For me, those things all form part of musicality / musical engagement. Perhaps my idea of boogie factor is wrong and I should be using the term 'swing' instead. The aspect I'm picking up on is more specific than the elements you listed.

It's sometimes hard to articulate music into words and I'm struggling with this one.

Charlie1 wrote:Some people prefer Valhalla LP12 to later versions, or Kan 1s to Kan 2s, often quoting that something was lost in later versions, the original had more boogie etc. I have a feeling I may have picked up on what they deem so important, although I'm not sure.

My Ninkas were able to really boogie on some tracks. The timing would be kind of sync'd like a pendulum. These tracks seemed to be imbued with more 'swing', compared to 140s, but was it induced by the Ninkas or better preserved by them? I recall mentioning this to Fredrik ages ago. Pretty sure he identified with it (or in Keilidh's) and felt that 212s (or maybe 242s) presented a truer picture of musical timing.

Anyone else experienced this? And do you think something similar happened with the Valhalla LP12 - i.e. did it do something to the music that was less accurate to the LP, but really enjoyed by some listeners? I'm not talking about the warmer sound here, just music related elements.

It's been too long since I heard a Valhalla deck and I've never had the pleasure of comparing one to a modern LP12. I do have an old video tape recording of my Valhalla deck and, it might be my imagination, but I think I can hear something along these lines.

Hit me in the head Charlie1. I have so many comments on this subject that I will allow myself to present them.

To start with I think that you should be careful about using SPT too often. It does change the feeling of the timing slightly.
This week alone I have experienced two or three (to me) decisive moments listening to music through hifi systems.
A week ago I might have argued that the timing of old Linn is better but not anymore. I agree with Fredriks take on the matter.

Put simply I think that old Linn can present a boogie + (wee bit too much) version of the recorded music and that many other systems present a boogie - version of the same.
BUT only when the system is not "hitting bulls eye" when it comes to setup!

Now I come to those defining moments that has happened to me. Two days ago I went to my nearest hifi dealer to talk about lp12 armboards and have a listen to what was on display.

I meet a man who was listening to different speakers using his own Naim streamer and power amp with his own music (old cds) on his own harddisk (small 10 by 10 centimeter thing laying on top of his streamer).
A lot of detail displayed in the presentation (both in treble and bass) but I could not find the music and made myself ready to go. Then suddenly after a sub had been added and some special blocks (a bit like linn skeets) had been placed under the harddisk and under the spikes of the speakers it was as if the detailed treble and pushy bass disappeared and it all came together into one sound. Everything just found its rightful place and started playing music (my interpretation of the situation).

I do not think that the other two in the room realised what was happening. The music was turned off. The man with the Naim system was tired of listening and did not trust his hearing anymore and I went home shortly after.

I would have dismissed this insident if it had not been for my latest experience with my own system. At home I had put my five layer armboard back on (turned upside down) my Sondek.
After I had listened for some time I suddenly found myself thinking that my tweeters had stopped working but checking them they were still playing. Everything came together into one presentation. Details became a part of a hole not putting themselves on display.
The sound I am now getting reminds me of the sound I heard in the hifi shop! The boogie is still present but not as pronounced as before. Instead every single recording I have (be it digital or analog) show itself to me in a very persuasive way. I still feel inclined to nod my head but I do not feel forced to do it.

I enjoy my digital recordings more than ever. They are open and invites me in for a joyful listen.

My guess is that it is all about hitting bulls eye with the setup of ones system. My second guess is that a lot of the things we discribe as being the way Linn, Naim or others present the music is much to do with how the systems react to incomming vibrations and other things that can distort the music.

Ultimately we may end up with different systems sounding much the same when set up perfectly.

The proces of getting the setup just right reminds me of tuning two instruments. Just before they hit the right spot your can hear all sorts of (unpleasent) vibrations and then suddenly the sound (note) turns into one even note.

This is all speculations and can easily all be wrong but at the moment it is my belief.

beck wrote:This week alone I have experienced two or three (to me) decisive moments listening to music through hifi systems.

A week ago I might have argued that the timing of old Linn is better but not anymore. I agree with Fredriks take on the matter.

Put simply I think that old Linn can present a boogie + (wee bit too much) version of the recorded music and that many other systems present a boogie - version of the same.
BUT only when the system is not "hitting bulls eye" when it comes to setup!

Now I come to those defining moments that has happened to me. Two days ago I went to my nearest hifi dealer to talk about lp12 armboards and have a listen to what was on display.

I meet a man who was listening to different speakers using his own Naim streamer and power amp with his own music (old cds) on his own harddisk (small 10 by 10 centimeter thing laying on top of his streamer).
A lot of detail displayed in the presentation (both in treble and bass) but I could not find the music and made myself ready to go. Then suddenly after a sub had been added and some special blocks (a bit like linn skeets) had been placed under the harddisk and under the spikes of the speakers it was as if the detailed treble and pushy bass disappeared and it all came together into one sound. Everything just found its rightful place and started playing music (my interpretation of the situation).

I do not think that the other two in the room realised what was happening. The music was turned off. The man with the Naim system was tired of listening and did not trust his hearing anymore and I went home shortly after.

I would have dismissed this insident if it had not been for my latest experience with my own system. At home I had put my five layer armboard back on (turned upside down) my Sondek.
After I had listened for some time I suddenly found myself thinking that my tweeters had stopped working but checking them they were still playing. Everything came together into one presentation. Details became a part of a hole not putting themselves on display.
The sound I am now getting reminds me of the sound I heard in the hifi shop! The boogie is still present but not as pronounced as before. Instead every single recording I have (be it digital or analog) show itself to me in a very persuasive way. I still feel inclined to nod my head but I do not feel forced to do it.

I enjoy my digital recordings more than ever. They are open and invites me in for a joyful listen.

My guess is that it is all about hitting bulls eye with the setup of ones system. My second guess is that a lot of the things we discribe as being the way Linn, Naim or others present the music is much to do with how the systems react to incomming vibrations and other things that can distort the music.

Ultimately we may end up with different systems sounding much the same when set up perfectly.

The proces of getting the setup just right reminds me of tuning two instruments. Just before they hit the right spot your can hear all sorts of (unpleasent) vibrations and then suddenly the sound (note) turns into one even note.

This is all speculations and can easily all be wrong but at the moment it is my belief.

Hi Beck. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'd not considered it as setup related but you could be right.

All the elements are important from the performance of the artist(s) through to system set up. Some are more important than others, but all parts contribute either positively or negatively.
Even down to the mood of the listener of course.

All else aside: if I had to choose between two systems with the same qualities except boogie factor I would choose the one that boogied the most. :-)

Charlie1 wrote:Some people prefer Valhalla LP12 to later versions, or Kan 1s to Kan 2s, often quoting that something was lost in later versions, the original had more boogie etc. I have a feeling I may have picked up on what they deem so important, although I'm not sure.

My Ninkas were able to really boogie on some tracks. The timing would be kind of sync'd like a pendulum. These tracks seemed to be imbued with more 'swing', compared to 140s, but was it induced by the Ninkas or better preserved by them? I recall mentioning this to Fredrik ages ago. Pretty sure he identified with it (or in Keilidh's) and felt that 212s (or maybe 242s) presented a truer picture of musical timing.

Anyone else experienced this? And do you think something similar happened with the Valhalla LP12 - i.e. did it do something to the music that was less accurate to the LP, but really enjoyed by some listeners? I'm not talking about the warmer sound here, just music related elements.

It's been too long since I heard a Valhalla deck and I've never had the pleasure of comparing one to a modern LP12. I do have an old video tape recording of my Valhalla deck and, it might be my imagination, but I think I can hear something along these lines.

I think something is lost when using the suspension within a suspension that the Trampolin provides. I'd rather find a solid floor or wall for the turntable and use a proper table or wall stand.

I think this question has been discussed a couple of times before. It's difficult to reach full understanding on a forum, though, as we experience and mean different things when we say Boogie Factor and other similar expressions.

That said (as Seinfeld noted in one episode; now I am going to say the exact opposite of what I just claimed to be true), there is definitely a Fun or Boogie Factor in some products. And if a newer one is experience to be better, but still lacking a bit in the Fun Factor, something IS missing. I think it's possible to have it all, but very few products accomplish that. The Tune Method is an evaluation method that takes a snapshot of the whole presentation and how much sense it makes - I still always go by the outcome of that.

But with that as a foundation, you can still analyse and pick the reproduction apart in detail. And then you might find that there's a distortion that brings "sameness" to all music (not uncommon in old gear that can still have a strong Boogie Factor), or that the attack and decay of notes, especially bass, is imperfect (not uncommon in newer gear that sound very detailed and clean but still lack a Boogie Factor).

As I said, I think it's possible to have it all.

I am so glad that you posted the above reply Fredrik. My system has started to show signs of boogie+ again and I do not know how to stop it. :-)

beck wrote:All else aside: if I had to choose between two systems with the same qualities except boogie factor I would choose the one that boogied the most. :-)

Me too!
But on the other hand, who doesn't? :)

Thanks John and Fredrik.

lejonklou wrote:I think this question has been discussed a couple of times before. It's difficult to reach full understanding on a forum, though, as we experience and mean different things when we say Boogie Factor and other similar expressions.

That said (as Seinfeld noted in one episode; now I am going to say the exact opposite of what I just claimed to be true), there is definitely a Fun or Boogie Factor in some products. And if a newer one is experience to be better, but still lacking a bit in the Fun Factor, something IS missing. I think it's possible to have it all, but very few products accomplish that. The Tune Method is an evaluation method that takes a snapshot of the whole presentation and how much sense it makes - I still always go by the outcome of that.

But with that as a foundation, you can still analyse and pick the reproduction apart in detail. And then you might find that there's a distortion that brings "sameness" to all music (not uncommon in old gear that can still have a strong Boogie Factor), or that the attack and decay of notes, especially bass, is imperfect (not uncommon in newer gear that sound very detailed and clean but still lack a Boogie Factor).

As I said, I think it's possible to have it all.

A thought through reply like yours deserves more than my weak one liners.

So, boogie+ = tendency to sameness and boogie - = lack of boogie factor

The reason I think I am getting somewhere with my system is that for the first time ever I hear less engaged parts of music within a piece of music (less energetic) from some of my old records in places where you would expect the same tempo and groove. I have never had that feeling before. At the same time I hear more of piano=piano (not a decomposed piano)

I think you are spot on with the above reply.

When I have been speaking to others about analog versus digital I have sometimes made the simplification that analog hifi systems often are boogie+ and digital systems often boogie- related and that the sweet spot would be right in the middle where it would all come together in glorious music.

Boogie is a cool but very relevant term!

To me, it is at the Kore of what a hifi system should do - but I have hifi friends that don’t really get it. They always talk about slam, image height, treble purity etc etc. Interestingly, my musical friends and associates get it straight away - I’m talking about accomplished and seasoned musicians!

This is why I use vinyl, despite all the measurements published over the years on the accuracy of good digital, vinyl on a well set-up LP12 has a boogie factor that is hard to beat. IMHE, start at the source and use sympathetic down stream amps that don’t kill the boogie!

On my recent arm upgrade quest, I had considered other non-Linn tonearms but on audition I realised that they really did not boogie well enough!

From what I have heard based on my recent Gaio purchase, Lejenklou really understands how to boogie!


Regards
CM

Clownmaster wrote:Boogie is a cool but very relevant term!

To me, it is at the Kore of what a hifi system should do - but I have hifi friends that don’t really get it. They always talk about slam, image height, treble purity etc etc. Interestingly, my musical friends and associates get it straight away - I’m talking about accomplished and seasoned musicians!

This is why I use vinyl, despite all the measurements published over the years on the accuracy of good digital, vinyl on a well set-up LP12 has a boogie factor that is hard to beat. IMHE, start at the source and use sympathetic down stream amps that don’t kill the boogie!

+1

And congratulation on getting an Ekos! :-)

matthias wrote:Did you compare the 3677s to your current speakers in the same set-up?

Matt

I'll be surprised if he's even heard a decent pair, let alone had some at home to even compare them properly. There's so much wrong with his original statement that it doesn't even warrant an explanation from him. Just a 'no'. It just comes across as troll like imo.

Ozzzy189 wrote:I'll be surprised if he's even heard a decent pair, let alone had some at home to even compare them properly. There's so much wrong with his original statement that it doesn't even warrant an explanation from him. Just a 'no'. It just comes across as troll like imo.

Ozzzy,
this is my view too.

Matt

Ozzzy189 wrote:

matthias wrote:Did you compare the 3677s to your current speakers in the same set-up?

Matt

I'll be surprised if he's even heard a decent pair, let alone had some at home to even compare them properly. There's so much wrong with his original statement that it doesn't even warrant an explanation from him. Just a 'no'. It just comes across as troll like imo.

Ozzzy, I answered the question, with complete honesty. I'm not sure what's wrong with that. There is no explanation required when the answer is no. Do I say no, not on a Tuesday? Or no, not in London? What more explanation is required to qualify a "no" to a straightforward question? The question was about hearing the comparison in the same room and system so I answered that question. It has nothing to do with the original post I made about boogie factor. There's no need to over extrapolate my answer into something it isn't.

I have heard a pair of 3677 on the end of KRDS, Lejonklou amplification and on the Linnofil stands. I'm not sure if they qualify as a "decent pair" or not - do they vary in quality (I suspect not)? How would one check if they are a "decent pair"? Note my comment was that Akubarik and 3677 don't boogie as well as my current speakers. I made a relative comparison. I wonder what you find so wrong about that statement? It might not align with your opinion of course, but that's fine, we're all entitled to an opinion. I note that you selectively jumped on the 3677 but not the comment on Akubarik and "many other speakers".

I've made some contributions to the topic of the thread for debate by everyone. Perhaps you would like to contribute to the topic too?